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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 9:44:44 AM   
Owner59


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Exactly what he`s been doing,while exceeding expectations and proving media pundits wrong.

Mr Obama so far,has risen above the petty parts of politics and has stuck to the program.

So far as I know,he hasn`t belittled McCain or gotten personal.So far,he`s engaged and challanged McCain`s positions and plans.I think people respect that about him.

For McCain,the Rovian method is his only arrow in their quiver.

I think Mr.Obama is advantaged by that and will rise above it.He`s going to bring up issues that really matter right now and sound suggestions to address them.

Now more than ever,folks don`t feel they have the luxery of choosing a president based on petty things like hate,fear/loathing,race,"sex appeal" or nonsense.


Folks just know we`ve been going in the wrong directions for yerars and want it to change.Period.

That`s the thing folks will focus on and think about,not frivalous stuff.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 8/10/2008 10:07:22 AM >


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 9:50:47 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


I meant that folks weren`t being sent there and that the draft wasn`t an issue as such.I should have been clearer.




        The draft didn't end until 1973, O59.  Care to clarify your clarification?


We were spending men to die in Viet Nam, in 72?Ya got me.

Anyway.

No need to clearify.You`ll need it to hang your hat on when I spank you (figuratively ) .You can keep it bringing up, as if it`s relevant.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 8/10/2008 9:59:13 AM >


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 9:55:40 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

You`ll need it to hang your hat on when I spank you.





          LOL.  Unless you have really long arms, O59, the angle is going to be completely wrong for that.  (figuratively speaking, of course 

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 8/10/2008 10:12:28 AM >


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 10:06:14 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Exactly what he`s been doing,





          Then he'll lose, and I'm going to have precisely zero sympathy for those who spend the next fours years whining about being robbed again.

        If I was killing trees in the prep office for this one, my vote would be to grab the FDR model of "nothing to fear, but fear itself."  He's a socialist, so maybe a touch of class-warfare against "the profiteers of fear" in the form of corporations.

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 10:25:08 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

       I would welcome your thoughts on the bigger picture, Celt, so let me rephrase the question from the position you have taken.  What negative force will Barry personify in McCain, to draw the lines of good/bad?  I don't think the same old crapola is going to be effective.

Obama has to demonize McCain's weaknesses and minimize McCain's strengths.  That much is obvious--Campaign Strategy 101.  McCain has to do the same thing with Obama.

McCain's biggest weakness is being identified both with the Congress and with the Bush administration--which are in a constant battle to see which branch of government will be most odious to the American people (as of today, the Congress "leads" that contest).  Obama needs to press the argument that a McCain Presidency would be little more than a Bush third term.  Additionally, he needs to portray McCain as part of a broken and lifeless Congress that does not represent the interests of the American electorate.

However, that is a double edged sword.  "Congress" includes both Democrats and Republicans.  If Congress is itself part of the problem, then Obama's erstwhile political allies in the Congress are part of the problem.  I should note that Bill Clinton faced this same challenge in his first term in office, when he offended the Democratic leadership in Congress, forcing him to tack right and make his bones with Newt Gingrich and the Republican leadership--Bill Clinton's support of NAFTA was the most visible result of that alliance of necessity, although the surpluses Clinton enjoyed in the latter days of his Presidency also arose in part from the budget negotiations triggered by the Republican Contract with America--and it is not an overreach to say that Clinton won his second term by having successfully hi-jacked the Republican agenda and making it his own.

Obama can villify McCain as a multi-term senator and part of the Congressional "establishment"--and might even be successful in that characterization, McCain's reputation as a maverick notwithstanding--but so far he has shown none of the coalition-building, consensus-building skill Clinton possessed, and if he alienates the Democratic leadership in the Congress yet is successful in winning the Presidency, he lacks the political heft to reach across the aisle to work with the Republican minority to move legislation forward (if anything, the Republicans would seize every opportunity to magnify a split between the White House and the Congress, theorizing that such a split increases their chances to recapture one or both houses of Congress in 2010, and the White House in 2012).

The affiliation with Bush is safer in the long term but more a more difficult case to make.  McCain's opposition to Bush policies are a matter of public record, and indeed the "surge" in Iraq--which even Obama dare not call a failure despite dark and dramatic predictions in the early days of the surge--has more of a McCain than Bush imprimatur on it.  Yes, McCain voted for the war resolutions authorizing Bush to invade Iraq, but so did a good many leading Democrats, and if the Democrats in Congress are to be given a pass on that, then so too must McCain; McCain can plausibly take credit for the change in conditions in Iraq to one where discussing troop withdrawals is no longer an admission of defeat and a consignment of Iraq to chaos and civil war, while not shouldering an inordinate amount of blame for being in Iraq in the first place.

Obama also has to minimize McCain's experience edge--experience which transcends the political sphere.  McCain's years as a POW in Vietnam are all the reference needed to demonstrate that McCain "gets" hardship and sacrifice; his military record after Vietnam shows him a capable, competent, leader.  Obama's Harvard-cultivated urbanity and multicultural worldiness undercuts any claims he might make about growing up in hardship and privation.  In this aspect, Obama took several dramatic steps backward in his response to McCain's "Paris Hilton" ad; his petulant and prissy reaction shows him to be thin-skinned in a manner which magnifies his lack of deep experience in any field of endeavor, be it politics, law, or community activism.

Pushing the argument of McCain's economic illiteracy is a non-starter--Obama has no credible foundation to make a claim of superior economic wisdom, and his economic policies are riddled with holes and question marks that open the door to a characterization as a classic "tax and spend" liberal.  McCain has already taken a lot of the oxygen out of that story-line by admitting up front he is not an economic policy wonk.

Ironically, the difficulty Obama faces in dramatically characterizing McCain's deficits as a Presidential contender highlight a gaping hole in his "change" campaign strategy--no one, not even his own advisors, can state within 10 words or less what that "change" signifies.  Obama lacks a Carville-like mastermind who can draw issues in dramatic relief ("it's the economy, stupid")--and his own speechifying on the topic tends to meander around without making any real points.  Does anybody remember the closing lines of his "A More Perfect Union" speech?  Does anybody recall the bulk of what he said just a few weeks ago in Berlin?  His words sound good, but they lack staying power. 

For all of his mellifluous tones and lofty oratory, he has yet to draw his campaign theme in clear, concise terms.  JFK had "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."  Reagan had "Recession is when your neighbor loses his job. Depression is when you lose yours. And recovery is when Jimmy Carter loses his."  Obama overplayed his hand in Europe by not having a rhetorical flourish to match either "ich bin ein berliner" or "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall."--the grand stage demands the grand gesture, and Obama has yet to provide one.

America is a nation predicated upon hope for the future and faith in the capacity of man--for all this nation's sins and defects, that is our undeniable political heritage.  While Americans are not averse to "change" in their politicians, our political history and culture show that we prefer to positive change over negative change--we want to move towards a positive and not away from a negative.  So far, all Obama offers in the way of change is running away from the Bush legacy.  If Obama can state with clarity to what goal he would have us run, his candidacy will be a strong one; absent that statement, his candidacy will remain unfocused, unguided, and more ego-driven than policy-driven.


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 10:40:47 AM   
MistressNew


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

The affiliation with Bush is safer in the long term but more a more difficult case to make.  McCain's opposition to Bush policies are a matter of public record,



McCain Voted with the Bush Administration 89 Percent of the Time. Since President Bush took office, McCain has supported Bush’s positions 89 percent of the time. McCain’s support of Bush’s policies reached as high as 95 percent in 2007. [Congressional Quarterly Voting Study, 110th Congress]


I'm just saying. 


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 11:15:58 AM   
celticlord2112


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McCain Voted with the Bush Administration 89 Percent of the Time.

28 Democratic Senators voted with the Bush Administration more than 50% of the time--including Carl Levin, Chris Dodd, Joseph Biden, and Harry Reid. Three Democratic Senators (Ben Nelson-NE, Mary Landrieu--LA, Blanche Lincoln--AR) supported the President more than 60% of the time.  Interesting note:  Levin and Dodd supported the Democratic Party line 96% of the time, while Biden and Reid did so 93% of the time--while supporting the Bush administration the majority of the time.

If the Bush administration is so wrong, why do the majority of Democratic Senators follow Bush's lead the majority of the time?  If the Bush administration is so wrong, why does the leadership of the Democratic Party--Barack Obama's party--agree with Bush more often than not?

(same source as yours, btw)

< Message edited by celticlord2112 -- 8/10/2008 11:29:49 AM >


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 12:52:56 PM   
bipolarber


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I look forward to the day that congress has a filibuster proof, democratic majority. Along with a democratic president, and those two bodies picking three to four replacements to the retiring judges from the supreme court.

We will marginalize the hawks in office, and get back to being a responsible member of the world.

Humm...who to hate? Warmongers? Government that places horse traders in charge of important federal programs? People that fuck over the Constitution? Pick a card, any card...

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 12:59:28 PM   
NumberSix


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<snip> 
If Congress is itself part of the problem, then Obama's erstwhile political allies in the Congress are part of the problem.<snip>

E pluribus unum.

you're pounding a dry well here, arbusto.  He doesn't have the experience, nor the connections, didn't you just say that?  I think that  you guys need to  coordinate your policy in the grand scheme of things, or it might be percieved that the GOP is floundering.


Are you all gonna vote for Hillary as you all waved the flag for this election?  You certainly can't vote for McCain, or you will be percieved as duplicitous, men of no moral turpitude.......


6

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 1:05:55 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix

He doesn't have the experience, nor the connections,




            That's why winning a close election would spell failure for his administration, Numb.  To accomplish anything, he will need a mandate.  Hence, my belief that he has to motivate the middle with the methods that are proven to do it.

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 1:21:21 PM   
NumberSix


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Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, the middle; I'm having a little trouble with that vision thing here.

Political debate has been so polarized for so long that the middle is now the silent majority.

AND FRANKLY, this failure of administration will happen with either of these Nancy boys.  So horse apiece, there.

We shall see how that pans out.


< Message edited by NumberSix -- 8/10/2008 1:23:08 PM >


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"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

Be seeing you...

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 1:33:39 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, the middle; I'm having a little trouble with that vision thing here.




        You know them.  They carried Reagan when he won their faith, and Nixon when the Left spit in their faces in '72.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 1:43:41 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


I meant that folks weren`t being sent there and that the draft wasn`t an issue as such.I should have been clearer.




       The draft didn't end until 1973, O59.  Care to clarify your clarification?


We were spending men to die in Viet Nam, in 72?Ya got me.

Anyway.

No need to clearify.You`ll need it to hang your hat on when I spank you (figuratively ) .You can keep it bringing up, as if it`s relevant.



quote:

http://www.sss.gov/lotter4.htm
This lottery was conducted for men who would have been called in 1973; however, no new draft orders were issued after 1972.

By the way, 50,000 were inducted via the draft in '72.

Just a friendly reminder though, the entire reason this point even came up....  Who was responsible for the draw down in troops the next year?   It surely wasn't McGovern.

The similarities are kind of interesting when you think about it... McGovern ran on an almost identical platform as Obama 'anti-war and increasing wages for the nation's poor.  Also I should mention the way the nomination process went and the changes that took place, and how some Dems were put off by it and actually voted Republican.

Just sayin, history sometimes repeats itself.

Thadius

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 2:47:09 PM   
Owner59


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I rarely get into a back and forth about how said what.It was implied that young folks might not vote ,as they supposedly didn`t vote in 72 .My response was and is that things are different today.

In 72,we in withdrawal of troops from Viet Nam and not sending men to die, for nothing.

That`s not true today.Not even close.

Maybe soon, we`ll be speaking in the context of a nation in the process of withdrawal.But this election is going on at a time when our GIs are being used , abused and sent home in pieces or in body-bags,for nothing.

Those realities will motivate younger people to vote and trump the personal attack/mock routines.IMO




< Message edited by Owner59 -- 8/10/2008 2:49:32 PM >


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 3:17:08 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59



I rarely get into a back and forth about how said what.It was implied that young folks might not vote ,as they supposedly didn`t vote in 72 .My response was and is that things are different today.

In 72,we in withdrawal of troops from Viet Nam and not sending men to die, for nothing.

That`s not true today.Not even close.

Maybe soon, we`ll be speaking in the context of a nation in the process of withdrawal.But this election is going on at a time when our GIs are being used , abused and sent home in pieces or in body-bags,for nothing.

Those realities will trump the personal attack/mock routine.IMO






You have me shaking my head on this one.  Don't forget that it was even later in the year (Aug 12 and 17th that Congress rejected the pullouts) in '72.  What was the difference between the policy of Vietmanization, and what is going on now? The only difference I can think of is, that we are making sure the Iraqis will be able to hold the gains made through the surge, before pulling out wholesale. Hopefully to avoid the need for any operation linebackers.  Not to mention it was late July when Fonda made her infamous anti-war broadcasts via Hanoi radio.  I hate to take the wind out of your sails, but troop reductions in Iraq are going to happen prior to Obama taking office, and more importantly, regardless of whether he will be taking office.

If you think the war wasn't a top issue during the '72 election, then you are really off.  Hell, if anything the young folks have less reason now to worry about the war, as there is no draft today.  Getting the youth vote fired up is easy, especially with a charismatic candidate, keeping them fired up until they vote is quite another story.

Just my thoughts,
Thadius

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 4:21:25 PM   
TheHeretic


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       Thanks for the thoughtful reply and analysis, Celt, but these are the status quo arguments, the same ones that have him bogged down in the 40% range. 

       

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 5:24:08 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

I look forward to the day that congress has a filibuster proof, democratic majority. Along with a democratic president, and those two bodies picking three to four replacements to the retiring judges from the supreme court.

That is not a likely outcome.  Only 5 of the last 20 Congresses have been controlled by the same party as the White House, and of those, only one (95th) did the Democrats have more than 60% of both Houses.

The historical tendency in this country is divided government, with the Democrats being favored to run the House of Representatives, the Republicans being favored to run the White House, and the Senate being more or less a toss up.

Whether it is wise or not, the will of the American electorate is divided government.  If Obama wins the White House, I would expect the American people to put the Republicans in charge of Congress in 2010.


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 5:31:52 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
      Thanks for the thoughtful reply and analysis, Celt, but these are the status quo arguments, the same ones that have him bogged down in the 40% range. 

They are, but Obama is, after all the rhetoric is spoken, very much a status quo politician.  He is a product of the Chicago political machine.

Obama has chosen the tactic of packaging himself as a new breed of politician; unfortunately, packaging is all it is--the substance of Obama is very much old school.

That is the strategic weakness in his promoting "Change".  It has a noble ring and got him through the primaries, but it makes his turn to the center an unusually risky proposition.  Every tack to the center demonstrates old-school political behavior, instinct, and attitude.  He has chosen a very narrow platform from which to campaign, and he runs a very real risk that the platform is too narrow and will collapse underneath him.

Obama promises "change" without having thought through what manner of "change" he means to deliver.  His policies are not new; his issues are not new; his ideas are not new.  When nothing is new, where is there "change"?


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 5:48:34 PM   
Owner59


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 "Obama promises "change" without having thought through what manner of "change" he means to deliver.  His policies are not new; his issues are not new; his ideas are not new.  When nothing is new, where is there "change"?



Then there`s the guy, who actually promises no change in policy or direction, at all.


The choice and difference, gets clearer.



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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/10/2008 6:42:17 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

When nothing is new, where is there "change"?




        That's why I believe he must reach for the next level, and articulate the devil his "change" will defeat.  There are plenty of targets his base would offer up, but he has to motivate beyond them.  I doubt it will be anything completely new, but he must make his audience see it in a new way.

       

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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