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As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 2:59:44 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		Ok, so as I mentioned in another post, I've come to a "crisis of faith", so to speak. I was trained in a style that considered a collar something to be "earned" -- where the collar only came after months of effort, danging just out of reach -- and then, when given, it seemed like it represented something akin to an Owner/servant-type "wedding ring".

Alarm bells went off for me, sort of quietly, as I wrote about this a few weeks ago, but I couldn't figure out what was niggling at me. Suddenly, about 24 hours ago, I realized... When I ended my marriage of 13 years, I -knew- that I had no interest whatsoever in re-marrying. By the time I accepted the collar while training for my crop, I'd been in a relationship with the people involved for a couple of years, aside from any BDSM interests -- but we were poly, and I sort of accepted the looser concept of "like a handfasting", and let it go at that - especially because I had nothing, really, against being handfasted to any of these people....

Drift down the road a few years -- companion servants have come and gone in our household, I've moved from the bound side of the collar to the side that holds the keys, and I've trained and said farewell to a couple of servants, one of whom we collared and she left not long after, and the others who never made it as far as a collar.

Suddenly, a day ago, without warning, the bells that had been ringing went off like a nuclear bomb in my head, laying everything out in stark detail, and I realized that I just -don't- have that feeling of a romantic relationship in mind for the people I want as servants. It may get there with some of them, and that's fine, and if it ever does, it will be ancillary to them being servants... sort of the same way that I am a friend with my boss at work. Which led me to the idea that, for me, a collar is really more of a symbol, like a badge or a particular uniform in a chosen profession...that while we may have different types of collars that are awarded IF certain things happen in the relationship (like when a servant makes it all the way through the probationary period, or IF we find a servant that we want around all the time and want to have in our home caring for us 24/7), I had absolutely NO problem with giving a collar to someone who agreed to enter into a service relationship with us on a probationary period a collar when the contract is read and signed, and the agreement is made... and amazingly enough, when I talked about this with my Darling, she agreed that she'd accepted her Trainer's definition, since it was his House to begin with... but that she was completely not tied to the idea that the collar was this huge 'relationship issue'... and that, now that he is no longer HB, and left it to me when he died, that it seemed perfectly appropriate to her that we reconsider how we approach the whole "collar" issue...WHEW!

So I guess my 'things' are... has anyone else encountered some symbol that a certain concept or idea was attached to for YEARS, and then suddenly realized that, while one still cherished the symbol, its meaning had completely and undeniably shifted to a different and seemingly opposite track? How did those you were with take it when you told them, or did you keep it to yourself? If you kept it to yourself, how did you handle the mental dichotomy?

Calla Firestorm

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer
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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 3:27:39 PM   
UR2Badored


Posts: 506
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline 		Nothing to add....but "dang"! catchy thread title............I continue to admire you and enjoy your posts :o)

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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 3:34:43 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Suddenly, a day ago, without warning, the bells that had been ringing went off like a nuclear bomb in my head, laying everything out in stark detail, and I realized that I just -don't- have that feeling of a romantic relationship in mind for the people I want as servants.

Omg reading what you just wrote was just PERFECT timing for me really. I really respect the outline and the years experience and the training you encapsulated in your post. Truly. Especially your transfer across the dynamic. (I cannot see myself ever making that transition).
As one who remains a one who accepts the collar i still get shocked by there being no romantic attachment by the ley holder. Those alarm bells you heard ....the ones of realisation.....i heard only loud and clear actually about a week ago. It took a long time sinking in that there could ever be such a thing as well romance-less bdsm.....derrrr for brains or what!
PS edited to add; it just goes to show that the collar makes an interesting strap line if you excuse the pun.....


< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 8/10/2008 3:36:33 PM >

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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 3:49:45 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Wow.  I think that is close to how I see a collar.  It has never been something I wanted for myself.  It is a symbol with which I can do without.  Mostly because for me it seems like a role, whereas I tend to have romantic relationships which involve my relinquishing power because of an overwhelming need to please my mate.  Not my partner, not my better, but my loving mate.
Kyst

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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 4:07:24 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		Also fast reply to add whilst the thought is still with me: that as the collar turns towards the role of being the key holder perhaps the sadism replaces the romanticism....? Maybe......no value judgments whatsoever placed upon either as being of the higher or lower ground and maybe romanticism is am equivocal enitiy to sadism...just thinking out loud in between late night tea and toast.

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 4:27:36 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		In terms of a collar, I've simply come to embrace it in terms of meaning with and without romantic notions attached. 

It's just not what the collar means to one person, but for both people on the ends of the relationship.

BDSM relationships based on romance or not?  Just want is romance anyways?  I have my own ideas of it, and well it might not been the same for other people.

People generally have some romanticized notions about things besides love and emotions.

Right now, for the moment, I don't have anybody collared.   I'm also trying to keep an open mind regarding a few things in terms of prospective BDSM relationships as well.

I do hold the stance that it's not something to quickly pass out and offer.  That it's connected with a committed relationship.   Collars don't make or define a relationship, people do.   That's my thought on it.   Relationships are somewhat different and varied as well. 


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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 4:34:40 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		How's this then (must be the tea n toast)
1. of, pertaining to, or of the nature of romance; characteristic or suggestive of the world of romance: a romantic adventure.  
2. fanciful; impractical; unrealistic: romantic ideas.  
3. imbued with or dominated by idealism, a desire for adventure, chivalry, etc.  
4. characterized by a preoccupation with love or by the idealizing of love or one's beloved.  
5. displaying or expressing love or strong affection.  
6. ardent; passionate; fervent.  
7. (usually initial capital letter) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a style of literature and art that subordinates form to content, encourages freedom of treatment, emphasizes imagination, emotion, and introspection, and often celebrates nature, the ordinary person, and freedom of the spirit (contrasted with classical): Romanticism is a complex artistic, literary, and intellectual movement that originated in the second half of the 18th century in Western Europe, and gained strength during the Industrial Revolution.[1] It was partly a revolt against aristocratic social and political norms of the Age of Enlightenment and a reaction against the scientific rationalization of nature, and was embodied most strongly in the visual arts, music, and literature.    
8. of or pertaining to a musical style characteristic chiefly of the 19th century and marked by the free expression of imagination and emotion, virtuosic display, experimentation with form, and the adventurous development of orchestral and piano music and opera.  
9. imaginary, fictitious, or fabulous.  
10. noting, of, or pertaining to the role of a suitor or lover in a play about love: the romantic lead. –noun
11. a romantic person.  
12. a romanticist.  
13. romantics, romantic ideas, ways, etc.  

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 8/10/2008 4:36:01 PM >

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 6:43:03 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		I'm pretty harshly objective when I think of ownership of a servant.

I see it as very much a symbiotic thing, but not as romantic.

I pretty much stop it at the "friends with benefits stage".

Which is not to say I cannot develop a realistic commitment to the dynamic-I'm just not the sort to go all googly eyed over having a female around the place.

_____________________________

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I'm not taking custom orders.

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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 7:01:26 PM   
Maxwell67


Posts: 435
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		Having come to this from an entirely different direction, I am not so inundated with BDSM past culture, Leather Comunity, "old guard," Gorean, Victorian or what-you-will.  I am very fond of symbols though.  It was more than a decade after our wedding and our handfasting that Mine got her collar.  Needless to say, we have no need of any new symbol to illustrate the permanence of our relationship.  The collar represents a new dynamic. For us it is the D/s dynamic.  We are working our way toward M/s, which will entail the addition of a tattoo.  We are romanitcal poly folks.  We believe in living fully.  We do not need the collar to represent that about ourselves though, perhaps our own determination of what a collar means is proof of that.  I began my learning about all things BDSM lore related relatively recently.  My first contact with a collar as a symbol was in the virtual world (Second Life).  Hence, I have always maintained simply that a collar is only as good as the people involved in the relationship it represents, and it does represent a relationship based on mutual honesty, trust, and devotion to a certian dynamic.  I would not say at this time that it means more to me than that nor that it ever will.  I have come across threads here, proclaiming an online collar is worthless, but from what I have learned, simply reading the threads and profiles on this site I cannot say that an R/T collar is any more valid.  It certainly looks to me that even in R/T a collar is only as good as the people involved in the relationship it represents.

In addition to the one who sits beside me in R/T, I do have several other LDR relationships of a D/s nature which are carried out online.  They are not role played,   They are virtual relationships, which is only an absurd concept to people who have never had success with one.  But we have no illusions about them either.  I am more a mentor to them than anything.  Yes, they call me 'Master' and do my bidding but I am an artist and Second Life is a community of virtual artists.  We are not having some kind of cyber sex (I do not 'cyber' with my online charges) all the time we are going places, meeting people, creating art. and playing games.    I do train them and guide their studies, advise them in matters both SL and R/T, but there is nothing of romance in what we are doing.  Still, two of them do wear 'my collar' and it means the same thing to me in those relationships that it does with Mine here at home.  Since that is how I came into contact with the symbol, I see no reason to differentiate between the two, so naturally I have adapted it's meaning accordingly.  I care about the well being of everyone in my collar. We are not going to all live happily ever after in a big house some day and that was never the intention.  We may well continue on as we are for many more years though.  If not, well, me and Mine have been poly for a long time.  We have seen others come and go, not felt slighted, or jealous and kept in touch happily.  This is a transient world and we may be the most transient generation of people to walk upon it.

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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 7:07:46 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67
They are virtual relationships, which is only an absurd concept to people who have never had success with one.

Strong sentiment yet i agree.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67
This is a transient world and we may be the most transient generation of people to walk upon it.


I do feel like this yet others advise go slowly.....going slowly in a transient world is like trying to stay dry in a rain storm.......

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 8/10/2008 7:08:07 PM >

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 8:05:06 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

How's this then (must be the tea n toast)
 
2. fanciful; impractical; unrealistic: romantic ideas.  
3. imbued with or dominated by idealism, a desire for adventure, chivalry, etc.  
4. characterized by a preoccupation with love or by the idealizing of love or one's beloved.  
7. (usually initial capital letter) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a style of literature and art that subordinates form to content, encourages freedom of treatment, emphasizes imagination, emotion, and introspection, and often celebrates nature, the ordinary person, and freedom of the spirit
8. of or pertaining to a musical style characteristic chiefly of the 19th century and marked by the free expression of imagination and emotion, virtuosic display, experimentation with form, and the adventurous development of orchestral and piano music and opera.  
9. imaginary, fictitious, or fabulous.  


One thing that strikes me is the number of definitions (about half) that mention something imaginary, fanciful, or overtly idealized...

Just sayin...

Calla Firestorm




_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 8:11:31 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		It's unicorn time.

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I'm not taking custom orders.

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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 8:13:02 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

Also fast reply to add whilst the thought is still with me: that as the collar turns towards the role of being the key holder perhaps the sadism replaces the romanticism....? Maybe......no value judgments whatsoever placed upon either as being of the higher or lower ground and maybe romanticism is am equivocal enitiy to sadism...just thinking out loud in between late night tea and toast.


I can only speak from my experience -- my Beloved, who was my Owner and then one of my Mentors until his death, was an amazingly creative sadist... and yet, the collar was, for him, something that imbued a familial bond. The only other thing that I can say is that I really started asking the questions about the collar as I realized that many of my favorite servants who serve predominantly as masochistic recipients of my scening skills would never qualify for a HBW collar under the terms that I was collared under... the collar required a certain set of lessons, and was undertaken with the idea of being a full-time, TPE (or whatever the current catch-phrase is for complete yielding to the dominant authority), lifelong servant -- and I really felt like it was the -service- that the collar represented for me, rather than the familial relationship that I was -taught- that it represented. The change in perception really was, if not 180 degrees, something -very-, -very- close.

Firestorm

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Prinsexx)
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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 9:32:55 PM   
MsJssk


Posts: 67
Joined: 3/28/2008
From: Austin, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

.....
So I guess my 'things' are... has anyone else encountered some symbol that a certain concept or idea was attached to for YEARS, and then suddenly realized that, while one still cherished the symbol, its meaning had completely and undeniably shifted to a different and seemingly opposite track? How did those you were with take it when you told them, or did you keep it to yourself? If you kept it to yourself, how did you handle the mental dichotomy?

Calla Firestorm


I cannot say that I've encountered the dynamics that you describe and therefore my thoughts could be naive. You suggest two possible choices. On one hand, you maintain the status quo and full fill the obligations that you made. On the other hand, you could announce to these people that the dynamics have changed. Part of those obligations was to satisfy certain needs in each other and those needs are no longer satisfied. So, while you agreed to train subbie sue in certain techniques and behaviors, you did not agree to any romance. The expectation is that you will care for and perhaps even love her. There is an understanding that you would satisfy a certain level of her needs. But there was also an understanding that romance was not part of these needs. In addition, there was an agreement that she would fulfill certain needs that you have. So, when you look at things from this perspective, it appears that you should honor the spirit of the original agreements and maintain the status quo in regards to romance.

However, there was an element in those agreements that suggest honesty about certain emotional needs. It is agreed that you will let subbie sue know if you are satisfied with her performance. Now, you are not satisfied, and she will sense it. However, if she does not understand that your lack of satisfaction is due to your own change, she will assume that it's due to her failure.

There is another element that you must consider. You have already begun crossing this bridge with one person. You and she are on a new path together to decide what your romantic needs are. The others that are connected to you and her will sense this. If they do not understand it, they will feel the dramatic difference in the changing foundation of the relationship. When faced with differences, we often assume one is better than the other. If you love Madam May differently, then subbie sue may decide that your love for her is better or is worse, but she will not be able to simply say that it's different unless you guild her through this change.

You have an obligation to respect the original foundation for the relationships. But you also have an obligation to be honest about your own changing needs. Somewhere therein lies a balance. Take things slow. Seek council from people that you respect and admire. And always act with honor. You will come through this happier than you were before.

Respectfully,
MsJ

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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 10:09:47 PM   
AllietheKitten


Posts: 115
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		I do like symbols but I think I am at the stage of the relationship where its still new and I need the symbol to remind me that he is mine.

As far as your question-have I ever had certain symbols or concepts that I was attached to for years and then suddenly flipped? Yes. I was a born again fundamentalist Christian until about 9 years ago. And when I walked away I burned the bridge LOL. My parents, family and friends were all shocked. My father has never gotten over it and keeps expecting God to "discipline" me (ooo, kinky!) and for me to eventually come back. Other friends have cooled off towards me. But I also gained quite a few friends I would have never had otherwise and a new insight and happiness in my life. So...I don't regret a thing.

Disclaimer: This post is not meant to offend any believers or start a relgious debate. Its only meant to share my own personal journey.

_____________________________

I don't believe in Destiny
Or the guiding hand of Fate
I don't believe in forever
of love as a mystical state
But I believe there's a ghost of a chance
We can find someone to love and make it last.
~Rush

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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 10:27:06 PM   
Maxwell67


Posts: 435
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67
They are virtual relationships, which is only an absurd concept to people who have never had success with one.

Strong sentiment yet i agree.

LOL  This of all statements to choose to agree with... This very clever wording from a writer such as yourself could only mean you agree from the opposite end, hehe.  Meaning you think it is an absurd concept.  It's clear you and I have different concepts of how the D/s relationship should play out, so it does not come as any surprise you should feel this way.  I wonder how you feel about online college courses or workshops?  How about pen pals?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67
This is a transient world and we may be the most transient generation of people to walk upon it.

I do feel like this yet others advise go slowly.....going slowly in a transient world is like trying to stay dry in a rain storm.......

You are going to end up all wet anyway so you might as well at least make it look like you meant to do that?  

Ah, but this could be construed as a quantity vs. quality argument.  Why is hurrying any better?

edited because I had answered my own question...


< Message edited by Maxwell67 -- 8/10/2008 10:35:29 PM >

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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/10/2008 10:33:07 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		The one thing I think of it my SAT score.  I started SAT prep in junior high.  It truly is amazing how this completely useless single score can become such an amazingly big deal.  Because even though it measures absolutely nothing other than how well you do on that particular test, it's still pretty much the first hurdle to get through in the applications process.  If you don't meet some basic mathematical score on a piece of paper, you need to be fucking brilliant in ever other way and do some real legwork to get past all the other hurdles.

So for years and years, it's what you hear, it's what gets pushed, it becomes a huge ordeal of prep, pre-testing, warm ups for every single class, flash cards, after school classes in between every else you have to do.

And then, two weeks into your first semester at college, you realize just how pointless, useless and unimportant it is.  No one cares, ever again.

While I'm still proud of the work I did, it's much more a matter of how focused I was and how well my mind works in tandem with the test itself rather than any true symbol of ability or progress.

The sad part is that it's as entrenched as ever, and teens are forced to perform more and more to compete, rather than simply learn and grow and be offered opportunities.  While my score at the time got me firmly entrenched in the high levels and I had nothing to worry about, adjusted for today I'd barely squeak in.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 8/10/2008 10:35:41 PM >

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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/11/2008 4:34:31 AM   
Vannwisty


Posts: 1
Joined: 12/29/2007
Status: offline 		Calla  always good to read your posts!  I hope you are well. To us  the collar is an outsward sign of something we share exactly like a wedding ring. I did work for two years to earn my outward collar, but Master owned me from the first time I submitted to him.

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RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/11/2008 10:36:06 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsJssk


You have an obligation to respect the original foundation for the relationships. But you also have an obligation to be honest about your own changing needs. Somewhere therein lies a balance. Take things slow. Seek council from people that you respect and admire. And always act with honor. You will come through this happier than you were before.

Respectfully,
MsJ


I agree about the obligation to respect the original foundation for the relationships... for me, that is why telling is so important. If the energy I am putting into the dynamic changes, to the point where I would have to "fake" an emotional connection that doesn't exist or deny one that -does-, and in either case, deny my -self- in the process, I believe that it is best to lay the cards on the table and see what happens... sometimes, it means a loss... other times, changes can be negotiated (for example, in our case, if someone wanted a romantic relationship, we would have no problem with continuing to provide the fetish aspects of their desires while they searched for their romantic companion -- or even continuing to do so if they found someone they were romantically inclined to, but who didn't do the fetish stuff they wanted/needed -- as long as everyone was up front about it and cool with it).

My Darling and I are in a fortunate place with this. Right now, we're only starting out interviewing new servants, so we can select those we plan on interacting with in the future accordingly -- our household members who are at a distance have been told about the situation, and so far, folks on both sides of the collar are perfectly fine with the change -- at least one of them plans on having a piercing done on his Chatelaine, whom he -does- have romantic feelings for, as a token of her special meaning to him, which I think is not only awesome -- I may have to have one of the dermal implants done myself, just because they are so doggone beautiful (maybe 2 -- I was thinking one on the temple, just above each brow)! The revelation really couldn't have happened at a better time.

CFB

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/11/2008 10:38:49 AM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to MsJssk)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: As the Collar Turns... - 8/11/2008 11:28:20 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

How's this then (must be the tea n toast)
 
2. fanciful; impractical; unrealistic: romantic ideas.  
3. imbued with or dominated by idealism, a desire for adventure, chivalry, etc.  
4. characterized by a preoccupation with love or by the idealizing of love or one's beloved.  
7. (usually initial capital letter) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a style of literature and art that subordinates form to content, encourages freedom of treatment, emphasizes imagination, emotion, and introspection, and often celebrates nature, the ordinary person, and freedom of the spirit
8. of or pertaining to a musical style characteristic chiefly of the 19th century and marked by the free expression of imagination and emotion, virtuosic display, experimentation with form, and the adventurous development of orchestral and piano music and opera.  
9. imaginary, fictitious, or fabulous.  


One thing that strikes me is the number of definitions (about half) that mention something imaginary, fanciful, or overtly idealized...

Just sayin...

Calla Firestorm




It's what the dictionary suggested......


_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

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