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End of Democracy? - 8/11/2008 9:44:58 PM   
aggressiveblkdom


Posts: 127
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: The Dark Side of The Moon
Status: offline 		A friend and I were having a stimulating conversation about our current president and many of the events surrounding him. She then sent me a link to this article, which I found REALLY disturbing....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment
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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/11/2008 10:26:30 PM   
Celeres


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Joined: 3/9/2008
Status: offline 		I don't necessarily agree with everything Naomi Wolf has said, although she would probably be quick to attack me as a "mindless Lemming" who will go blindly along with who is in power. Quite the opposite, in my opinion.

My view on what the President has done, is not one of attempting to end democracy and bring about a new regime. No offense to G. W. Bush (as I have a growing respect for the man, very different position from where I was 8 years ago when he first started). I, like many stout moderate democrats, knew that things would be bad. Regardless whoever won the presidency. However, I have great, great respect for his father who genuinely seems to have a real grip/handle on international affairs.

We live in the 21st century now. None of the founding fathers could have even imagined what the world would look like. Bush-43, in my honest opinion, is living in the old world. His father, Bush-41, knew how to rally global support and success in the Gulf (Desert Storm) in just a month with many nations of the world lending a helping hand. Bush-43 initiated Gulf War II (based on whatever information was available at the time) and is still there, 7 years later. The current situation has caused a bit of a stalemate... if we withdraw, that will have certain implications. If we stay, we over-reach financially and militarily.

So, going back to my original point, as much of this is a ramble, Democracy is not dead. On the contrary, Democracy is alive and well, and we are on the way to putting the first African-American behind the Resolute Desk in the Oval Office. The thing that is changing is the spread of Capitalism.

For those who wish to challenge my last point, think of this: China, pretty much the symbol of communism, has dealings with 48 of the 53 countries on the African Continent (most Angola and Sudan). Recently, China gave $2 Billion to Angola. The only stipulations (unlike IMF/American stipulations to change their way of life) was to repay China with favorable oil contracts. And, 70-80% of all new construction in the country must be given to Chinese companies. So just think about that for a moment. China is receiving crude oil, and it has found jobs for its own citizens and its own companies... that's the definition of having your cake AND eating it. China spend 43 BILLION on the Olympic games so far.

Anyway, I'll end my rant with this thought: Red China is no longer a "3rd World Country" that people can turn a blind eye to. In retrospect, they probably have a bigger sphere of influence than the U.S. Having nearly 1/5th of the world's population, ask any Chinese citizen if they feel "oppressed." They'll probably tell you that they wouldn't leave China for anything else. That in itself being "choice."

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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 4:02:30 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Democracy is dead. Your vote isn't even counted. You are a subject, not a Citizen.

You have exactly as much Freedom and Liberty as you are given. Get used to it.

You have no right to a habeas corpus hearing. It's over. Once you're deprived equal protection of the laws and due process everything else is a joke.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 8/12/2008 4:04:30 AM >

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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 5:13:00 AM   
thishereboi


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Status: offline 		Well, don't get to disturbed.....He will be gone in a few months and you will have some one new to concern yourself with.

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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 6:11:37 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aggressiveblkdom

A friend and I were having a stimulating conversation about our current president and many of the events surrounding him. She then sent me a link to this article, which I found REALLY disturbing....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment

It's a load of malarkey, mostly.  As offensive as Guantanamo is, it hardly compares to Nazi concentration camps or the Soviet Gulag.  Internal surveillance has been ongoing since the '60's.  Anyone arguing that Bush or the Republicans has control of the press needs to read the NY Times more often.

There are real dangers.  Bush has some real flaws, and has made some real mistakes.  Bush is neither Hitler, nor Mussolini, nor Stalin. 

The article shows mainly that Ms. Wolf has a poor grasp of history.  She should study more and write less.


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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 6:24:40 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

The article shows mainly that Ms. Wolf has a poor grasp of history.  She should study more and write less.



The US had McCarthyism, it seems prone to paranoia and intolerance, largely due to the fact that patriotism is seen as a virtue in the US where in most modern countries patriotism is seen decidedly as something akin to fascism. The amount of uniforms and flags on display in America is decidedly creepy.  Wolf might have a poor grasp of history but has she a poor grasp of America? Freedom is tested when you question the state, you don't get many Americans questioning the state and certainly not in the media which Chomsky commented on....


“The United States is unusual among the industrial democracies in the rigidity of the system of ideological control / ''indoctrination',' we might say / exercised through the mass media.”

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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 6:26:11 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Interesting article, ABD and I thought so when it was published.  To be fair to Wolf, she isn't suggesting that Bush = Hitler or Mussolini.  She clearly states that the threat to US democracy is through an erosion of liberty and diverse opinion and unlikely ever to manifest as a revolutionary popular movement, contrary to the comments posted by certain others.

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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 6:26:14 AM   
aggressiveblkdom


Posts: 127
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From: The Dark Side of The Moon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: aggressiveblkdom

A friend and I were having a stimulating conversation about our current president and many of the events surrounding him. She then sent me a link to this article, which I found REALLY disturbing....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment

It's a load of malarkey, mostly.  As offensive as Guantanamo is, it hardly compares to Nazi concentration camps or the Soviet Gulag.  Internal surveillance has been ongoing since the '60's.  Anyone arguing that Bush or the Republicans has control of the press needs to read the NY Times more often.

There are real dangers.  Bush has some real flaws, and has made some real mistakes.  Bush is neither Hitler, nor Mussolini, nor Stalin. 

The article shows mainly that Ms. Wolf has a poor grasp of history.  She should study more and write less.



While I agree with you celticlord on Guantanamo not being anywhere as bad as the concentration camps or the gulag, I can't help but wonder....how many people said the same thing about those institutions when they were first started?

But as thisherboi said....all we can do is wait a few months to see who will pick up the mantle.

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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 6:46:13 AM   
aggressiveblkdom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Interesting article, ABD and I thought so when it was published.  To be fair to Wolf, she isn't suggesting that Bush = Hitler or Mussolini.  She clearly states that the threat to US democracy is through an erosion of liberty and diverse opinion and unlikely ever to manifest as a revolutionary popular movement, contrary to the comments posted by certain others.


Very true Reality. But I just got to thinking along another path. What's just as frightening is that these many actions that Bush has taken could very well pave the path for someone to take those steps to the next level.

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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 6:56:17 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

While I agree with you celticlord on Guantanamo not being anywhere as bad as the concentration camps or the gulag, I can't help but wonder....how many people said the same thing about those institutions when they were first started?

A better question would be to ask whether Stalin, Mussolini, or Hitler ever had the vocal opposition Bush has today.  Americans are none too pleased with government (with reason), and there are countless news reports and op-ed pieces articulating this discontent.

There is always a danger of moving from democracy to despotism.  However, the danger lies not in the machinations of individual politicians, but in the quiet acquiescence of the people.  Frankly, I do not see where the American electorate is either quiet or acquiescing.


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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 7:13:20 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

The US had McCarthyism, it seems prone to paranoia and intolerance

How is the US unique in this regard? 

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1189794,00.html
http://racerelations.about.com/b/2007/01/11/does-france-struggle-with-xenophobia-or-racism.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1299713.stm

Every nation has its difficulties.


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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 7:38:04 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		Celtic, while I can easily agree that the American public is hardly Quiet about what has been going on within our government - I can and Do disagree about Aquiesence.
 
The Amercian public has been aquiescing to the errosion of individual freedoms, and movement edging each year further away from democrasy (or even the democratic republic that we actually Are) for quite some time.  While I know that  you consider Ms Wolf's writing to be a tad schewed, she raised some very valid points concerning things like our Aquiesence to such unconstitutional "laws" as the Patriot Act, and the more recent 2007 act that greatly (and dangerously) expanded the authority of Whoever happens to sit in the Big Chair to use the Military as a domestic policing agent or declare individuals to be guilty of "treason."
 
Treason is a dangerous term in and of itself.  At it's heart it means that we cannot disagree with those who have been granted authority, or take any action which works at cross purposes To those who have been granted authority - whether that action be taking up arms, or simply meeting together to form a protest in front of an office.
 
I find it distressing, having actually Read things like the Patriot Act, and the so called Patriot Act II, just how far OUR government has gone to quietly put in place the means to Legally do away with those who would openly oppose their actions.  While such measures might not (yet) have been Utilized to their full extent - they Do exist In Legal (though Unconstitutional) form, which means they are a present and ongoing danger to the very liberties that we hold dear.  I find it even more distressing - and much more Telling - just how much Aquiesence has been given by the American public while this was going on.  There has been no hue and cry from the public demanding that such unconstitutional items be stricken.  Quite the contrary, those who have called for it to happen are more frequently decried as paranoid fringe elements who don't Really understand.
 
The one thing which the government hasn't Yet suceeded in doing, which will be required to Complete America's transformation from the Land of the Free to the Land of the quietly desperately polite who live in fear of their government - is the removal of All weapons from the hands of private citizens.  They've been trying for years to accomplish just that.  And every year, they get just a small step closer to achieving the goal of completely disarming the citizenry.  When they finally achieve that goal, kiss any Illusion of freedom goodbye.

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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 7:48:08 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

The one thing which the government hasn't Yet suceeded in doing, which will be required to Complete America's transformation from the Land of the Free to the Land of the quietly desperately polite who live in fear of their government - is the removal of All weapons from the hands of private citizens. They've been trying for years to accomplish just that. And every year, they get just a small step closer to achieving the goal of completely disarming the citizenry. When they finally achieve that goal, kiss any Illusion of freedom goodbye.

The recent Supreme Court decision on the 2nd Amendment is a fairly dramatic step backward for those forces.

I agree with you that people can be too passive...and there is argument to be made that Americans have been insufficiently outraged by the Patriot Act and other legislative abominations.  However, the tenor and tone of this election cycle suggests that Americans may yet display their outrage in the medium that matters most:  the ballot box.


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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 7:58:56 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		Where it matters?  Ballot Box? 
 
That right there may be where you and I differ on opinion the greatest, where this is concerned, CL.  I've quit believing that the American Public - by and large - have the wherewithall to actually Achieve anything at the ballot box any longer.  Just in looking at the 2 pieces of Drek that are placed before us as "choices" should make That clear enough!  
 
In order to actually Achieve anything at the ballot box, the entire System would have to be dramatically and drastically altered.  And that, m'dear, is simply Not going to happen.  Until the PACs are made illegal, it becomes mandantory for there to be Choices on the ballots other than Democrap or Repugnican, and some means are found by which blatant Fraud (alla Florida) can be put to an end - things are not Going to change.  And you can bet your bippy, those same PACs are going to do everything in their rather formidable Financial power to ensure that the erected reprehensibles have absolutely no interest in taking any of those measures.
 
People try to contrast McCain and Obama.  Frankly - THERE IS NO CONTRAST.  Both of them are being paid outta the same wallet, and both of them - Regardless of what they Say to the Public - are going to quietly remember just who it is that Really saw to them getting in office.  And it WON'T be the Voters.

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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 8:02:47 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Where it matters? Ballot Box?

Where it matters.

Need I remind you that there are more candidates than McCain and Obama, running for more offices than just President?

Where it matters.  Where it must matter.  If the ballot box does not matter, then we have no democracy and all that you fear has already come to pass.


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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 8:09:39 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Where it matters.  Where it must matter.  If the ballot box does not matter, then we have no democracy and all that you fear has already come to pass.



And Finally you see my point.   
 
Yes, there are other Offices being voted on - and yes, technically there are even other presidential candidates.  How much do you actually Hear about those Other candidates?  How likely is it, in the long run, that anyone other than a democrat or republican would actually make it into office?  How many of them - Honestly - can say that they have never taken money from the PACs?  (Even the much touted Obama, who "promised" not to do so, changed his mind and took PAC money in the long run.)  How many of them actually have a voting record while in office that their constituants - the people who Supposedly put them there - can be proud of?
 
Regardless of whether the office is that of President or Senator or Representative - or even local officials in many cases - they are all Effectively a case of SSDD.  Same shit, different day - or in this case, SSDF - same shit different Face.

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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 9:55:46 AM   
aggressiveblkdom


Posts: 127
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: The Dark Side of The Moon
Status: offline 		Thanks for the viewpoints. I've definitely tried to look at this from both sides and both present damn good arguments. All we can do is wait. He will be out of office pretty soon, just hope the next guy can do a damn good job at damage control.

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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 11:07:24 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

The US had McCarthyism, it seems prone to paranoia and intolerance

How is the US unique in this regard? 

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1189794,00.html
http://racerelations.about.com/b/2007/01/11/does-france-struggle-with-xenophobia-or-racism.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1299713.stm

Every nation has its difficulties.



Social and race problems and tensions are one thing, legislature inspired witch hunts are another.

_____________________________

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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 11:15:54 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

A better question would be to ask whether Stalin, Mussolini, or Hitler ever had the vocal opposition Bush has today.

The answer regards Stalin is that he did indeed have opposition in the 1920s, initially from Trotsky and his followers. Once Stalin had achieved control of the communist party, he had post opponents slung out of the Politburo, and later from the communist party, including Trotsky. Later in the mid 30s he conducted what became known as the great purge, and had most opponents imprissoned in the Gulags or sent into exile.

Hitler initially used the Reichstag fire as an excuse to denounce the communist party, and he gained support from the main rivals, the Social Democrats. Once his power was solidified he started removing Social Democrat supporters from the cicil cervice and machinery of state. He then had several of the leading members sent to concentration camps.

So the answer is yes, initially they had both public and vocal opposition, which they ruthlessly exterminated. I cant say i know enough about Italian politics to say Mussolini did the same.

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RE: End of Democracy? - 8/12/2008 1:37:15 PM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		PS, you know that I don't agree with your usual thesis that totalitarianism and fascism are interchangeable.  I see it as a throwback to the neurotic desire of the right wing to have a demon of the left, just as Hitler (or Mussolini, Franco, Salazar etc)  was a demon of the right.   It's sloppy thinking and beneath you.

The examples in ABD's link are good ones but its not possible to produce clinching arguments in every case.  Although I do think no.7, "Dissent equals Treason" is pretty good.  I have definitely come across people, on this site and others, who believe that because they don't wholeheartedly support the war, they must therefore not be very loyal to their country.  The assumption is that the state's current leadership is the embodiment of the nation and the state.  

There are useful, if limited, comparisons between today's America (and other western countries) and a fascist state.  For example, Berlusconi's current coalition is doing some monstrous things to the gypsies and immigrants and there is a large enough popular support, it appears, for this to continue.

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