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leadership527 -> A personal insight (8/12/2008 8:15:15 AM)

Well, this will teach me to read collarme then go for a walk.  So it occurred to me while I was walking that up until now, I've had a deep-seated mistrust of being the dom for my wife that I've been fighting with all this time (since Nov when we started this).  That's not the realization though... I've known that for some time.  The realization was that I do not have a similar distrust in any other leadership position I can name.  In other contexts, my automatic assumption walking into any situation is that I will find one or more win-win scenarios in whatever the situation is then convince people to align behind one of those scenarios to the betterment of everyone.  It would never occur to me that my leadership, injected into some situation other than my marriage, would be a bad thing.  All of this makes me wonder Why do I perceive my personal relationship as any different than some other sort of leadership situation?  Why do I mistrust this situation and not others?

There's going to be some worthwhile digging in the dirt here for me.  Can any of you more seasoned doms remember back to when you were new?  Do you have any insights?  Any of you more seasoned subs have any insight here?



DomDolf -> RE: A personal insight (8/12/2008 9:00:05 AM)

Emotions I would imagine would have to take a part in what is going on. There are other reasons that may occur also, she likely knows more about you then the people you deal with which can have some affect on things, especially if she knows your hot buttons and knows how to use them.

I am not sure what you are saying about leadership and a bad thing, but I believe this is true in any situation. You will learn more about who you are and what your actions and reactions are through this. Self-awareness and the further development of it brings out all sorts of inner-conflicts. Hopefully when all our battles are fought we are better people.

If you discover what it is that is causing this, I hope you feel comfortable enough sharing.

Dolf



SirMIkeSD -> RE: A personal insight (8/12/2008 9:05:27 AM)

For me it comes down to you can really screw someone up in this position, and that can be a concern and it is challenging work ensuring that you always do the right thing.  Relax some if you can, we all make mistakes, just be able to own up to them and move on.  I will say that the fact that you are concerned about it means you understand the impact you have over someone else.

Mike




MasterHermes -> RE: A personal insight (8/12/2008 9:05:36 AM)

Maybe because you have never found yourself in a leadership position that would affect you as personal as your marriage? In many cases we detach ourselves from what we are leading, thus we can make more objective and less emotional decisions. Being a great leader is a lot more difficult when our own emotions are at stake. Specially if we are in love..

Hermes



KnightofMists -> RE: A personal insight (8/12/2008 9:58:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Why do I perceive my personal relationship as any different than some other sort of leadership situation?  Why do I mistrust this situation and not others?

There's going to be some worthwhile digging in the dirt here for me.  Can any of you more seasoned doms remember back to when you were new?  Do you have any insights?  Any of you more seasoned subs have any insight here?


the answer is simple...... The relationship with your wife... MATTERS!!!  other situations... if it goes south... oh well.. I will get another job etc etc etc.... but you wife... oh man that is sooooooooo different!!!  You can't compare it to any other situation or relationship on this type of level. 



GreedyTop -> RE: A personal insight (8/12/2008 10:00:40 AM)

you love her



leadership527 -> RE: A personal insight (8/12/2008 10:18:56 AM)

Mike:  Yeah, I went down that path also (and am still exploring this in my head).  I don't believe it has to do with how challenging the work is.  I've always felt very personally responsible for those that work for me and there's no doubt that as a manager, you can significantly mess with someone's life... the ability to take food off the table, introduce harsh martial stress, possible a divorce... Bad managers (and good managers for that matter) have impact way beyond the work sphere and I've always been acutely aware of that.  Whatever I did at work very definitely goes home with my employees for better or worse.  God knows I've been in decision making positions with literally hundreds of millions of dollars on the line and numerous jobs potentially at risk and they didn't cripple me with indecision.. or even slow me down.  It's hard to argue with the "relax some" idea... I just need to find where I'm NOT relaxed and why.

Hermes:  See my answer to Mike above.  Yes, I care about my wife more than I ever did any employee, but not by all that much.  In both cases, I saw it as a personal responsibility, not a business one.  Nor did I ever try to be that cold-dispassonate leader arch-type that seems to be so common.  I was always very emotionally engaged both with the work and the  people I led -- passionate is the word used frequently regarding me.  I certainly feel like the elements called out by you and Mike are relevant, but they aren't registering as the major players in this equation somehow. 

In chatting with my wife over IM, I'm beginning to think the rub is all around sex.  I think that what's going on here.... maybe... is that I am fine asserting control when it comes to job/career, living location, interpersonal dynamics, her personal issues, you name it.  But when it comes to sexually, I think I'm running into some old tapes in my head.  I need to peek inside my own head some more and see if I'm right that this internal resistance only crops up in regards sex.  In the end, that would be particularly ironic because in terms of "safety of commands", the sexual ones I give mine are some of the safest by far.  She's a deviant-kitty compared to me so the odds of me somehow stepping past some boundary of hers and not knowing it are vanishingly small.  I'm certainly on A LOT shakier ground in dealing with some of her personal issues such as self-esteem, body image, various addictions, etc.

*sighs*  Man, I HATE digging around in my own dirt *laughs*.  It's so much more fun to be "helping" other people with theirs.



Maxwell67 -> RE: A personal insight (8/12/2008 10:48:54 AM)

Sounds like a combination of factors.  The ultimate being, you feel if you screw this up you have more to lose.

If it is as you suggest, all bound up in the sexual aspect, but not so much a factor of if you will make some mistake and hurt her, it may be the other way around...  What if a session is too good?  Sound impossible?  If you create and expectation for yourself to deliver a certain level of intensity and then cannot it will take a toll on your confidence.  The biggest problem with this kind of play is the feeling most tops get of needing to continue to find new and creative ways to ramp up the intensity.  What if you run out of tricks?  The fear of being boring is far more powerful than most would care to admit.



RedMagic1 -> RE: A personal insight (8/12/2008 12:03:49 PM)

There are more taboos to break.  A strong man taking charge of a situation and squaring things away has been the Right Thing To Do for millenia.  Not so with your new situation.  It has also been programmed for generations that men don't hit women.  Further, if you're an official Sensitive New Age Guy, my guess is that you are sensitive to the importance of women to be able to speak their minds freely -- and that one of the features that most attracts you to your wife is her mind and her ability to speak frankly.

Based on your rewards thread, I believe that neither you nor your wife has found a way she can be both "slavishly obedient" and yet both of you are certain her mind and opinions remain a critical part of the relationship.  Perhaps the source of the OP is your concern that if you impose the first you will lose the second.

I suggest seeing things not as individual events, but as a process.  The coach is not always correct.  The team does what the coach says anyway.  You find out, based on the result of the game, whether the coach was right or not.  After the game, there's a debriefing, where the team gives input, and a plan to do better next time, and then practice to install the plan before the next game.  Done correctly, the entire team -- coach included -- gets better in the long run.

Individual errors are less worrisome -- or costly -- as long as you both keep your eyes on the prize.



Missokyst -> RE: A personal insight (8/12/2008 1:04:22 PM)

Exactly!
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

the answer is simple...... The relationship with your wife... MATTERS!!!  other situations... if it goes south... oh well.. I will get another job etc etc etc.... but you wife... oh man that is sooooooooo different!!!  You can't compare it to any other situation or relationship on this type of level. 



leadership527 -> RE: A personal insight (8/12/2008 1:11:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
Based on your rewards thread, I believe that neither you nor your wife has found a way she can be both "slavishly obedient" and yet both of you are certain her mind and opinions remain a critical part of the relationship.  Perhaps the source of the OP is your concern that if you impose the first you will lose the second.

Wow, very well put.  Not relevant to this particular problem, but yes, definitely that is a factor in the larger texture of things.  We are both "settling" into these new roles and, of course, having to figure out things exactly like you describe.  It is certainly true that in the acquisition of a slave, I do not want to lose the woman I've loved all this time.  That's a general sort of problem that we have and continue to face as we take our sweet time in adopting these roles.  The "rewards thread" was a perfect example of that... in that particular case, her needing to feel like she had an "out".  This thread is about an issue of my own that I'm coming to believe is pretty much centered around some old tapes of mine (that I truly thought I'd made more progress on) that read something like, "sex is bad."  "women don't enjoy sex", "sex is an imposition on women".  (and yes yes, I know *laughs*  Not only do I not believe those things intellectually, but it's hard not to laugh at the irony of posting such a thing on these boards)

quote:

ORIGINAL=RedMagic1
I suggest seeing things not as individual events, but as a process.  The coach is not always correct.  The team does what the coach says anyway.  You find out, based on the result of the game, whether the coach was right or not.  After the game, there's a debriefing, where the team gives input, and a plan to do better next time, and then practice to install the plan before the next game.  Done correctly, the entire team -- coach included -- gets better in the long run.

Individual errors are less worrisome -- or costly -- as long as you both keep your eyes on the prize.
Generally sound advice, thanks. 



Maxwell67 -> RE: A personal insight (8/12/2008 1:55:04 PM)

Great points RedMagic.  Especially the part about this all being a process.  That really does seem to be a key factor to making D/s work over the long term, IMO (strong stress here on the IMO part...as if I would know.. hehe.. I have been a 'lifestyler' even less time than Leadership).

At first, when you mentioned you thought it was sexual I wondered if perhaps it was a sort of performance anxiety and gave my reasons for why that might be accordingly.  I was not satisfied with this, however.. In a marriage that has been strong and relatively happy in the past,  problems that make themselves apparent in the bedroom (if that is where your comment about this beig sex related comes from) usually arise as a result of some other problem.

Generally taking a leadership position involves having a set goal to achieve, and you need to have a concrete idea of what that is, which is difficult since there is not really a product that comes out of all this.  It is all journey, no finish line.  The sexual facet of this is simply that you want to be in control, but you want her to enjoy it.. all of it.  How much time do you spend considering her mindset as a submissive?  Not just any sub, her, specifically.  Assuming that you really are both into this, and you want to make it work. You made it clear that her point of view is important to you, and also that her submission is important to you and I think this is creating a conflict.  My advice, having considered things further:  Make resolving that conflict your goal. Remove the pressure from the play aspect and make it all about deepening her submission.  If you do that, your lack of trust in yourself will be bolstered by her trust in you, made apparent by the depth of her submission.

Make aftercare more important.  Don't push the edges of the envelope unless you know you have the time and energy to give her the special attention she will need afterward.  Once an intense scene is over, Mine still feels vunlerable for quite a while.  It is important to discuss the effect of the scene on her, where it took her and what that showed her about herself and about her submission, but only after I am sure she feels appreciated, safe, and loved.  When she feels ready to talk about the scene I listen actively.  Ask questions.. not anything difficult, since she may get frustrated if she is still feeling a little in subbie space... just repeat back her observations in your own words, to let her know you listened and understood.  That should be enough.. don't ask her anything that involves her making choices.  Through out the aftercare praise her where you can, tell her she did well, tell her she was strong, tell her she was beautiful and that she pleased you, and all in slow, soft tones.

Give her 'assignments' which will also help deepen her submission.  Mine is currently making her own 'stealth collar' which she can wear whenever in public, under my watchful eye of course.

Develop other rules or rituals that will help you to understand her and where she is in her journey better.  When Mine comes home, I make her tell me about her day.  Not a difficult thing, since most women love to talk about such things, but I make sure she takes a submissive posture while doing it.  Again I listen actively, ask questions, make her think about her actions and reactions for the day.  If she talks about a problem I do not fall into my standard male habit of thinking that she wants help solving it... once I begin thinking of such things, then the conversation is no longer about her.  I simply help her explore it.  This process helps both of us to understand her better and makes her aware that I am actively interested in her growth.  That in turn increases both of our trust in me.  The better I understand her, and where her own journey is taking her, the better I can guide her along it. 



RedMagic1 -> RE: A personal insight (8/12/2008 3:56:49 PM)

It might be as "simple" an explanation as: you're a dom but not a sexual top.  I don't enjoy relinquishing control, but lord knows I don't enjoy being the one calling the shots in the bedroom all the time.  Cutting a general order like "Ravish me" and enjoying the surprises can be uplifting and relaxing.

Also, you do not mention this, but if "success" in sex is measured by intensity or number of orgasms for her and you, it might help to rethink that, and replace it with the sharing of intimacy.  Again, process rather than event.  Hee's a link that I think is both technically interesting and philosophically useful.

http://www.whitelotuseast.com/LingamMassage.htm



leadership527 -> RE: A personal insight (8/12/2008 4:27:58 PM)

This has been some great feedback on this thread.  Honestly, I didn't expect a bunch of strangers to be able to get so close.  Pretty much everythign said here has been accurate for portions of our relationship and it's been good advice in that vein.  The actual original post, I'm pretty sure I know what's going on and it has nothing to do with the usual sex issues.  Somewhere back in my childhood I got a thought going about not being "one of those guys".  Coupled then with a really bad set of experiences in my adult dating life and there were some emotional scars left.  I had just thought that we'd made more progress on that.  In my case, this has nothing to do with pushign teh boundaries of some play scene too far... it's ANY sex... at least any sex that involves me.  I think other people's sex is perfectly fine, normal and healthy *laughs*.  Oh well, back to the drawing board.  The really good news here is that I have a strong partner who is determined to help me get me past whatever scars past lovers left.

Maxwell, you're right that this isn't some sort of performance anxiety thing.  We've had a loving marriage and a very satisfying if perhaps somewhat bland sex life for quite some time.  After this long, I know her body and mind well enough to be quite confident when we engage.  Now that I've tossed it around inside my own head and bounced it off the feedback gotten here, I'm pretty sure I know this one... it's an old enemy and well familiar.  All of which is not to say that your general advice about extending control and aftercare if we ever start doing anything that looks like a "scene" is not great advice - thanks.

In this case Red, success in sex is measured solely as having a more balanced view on it.  Honestly, I know for a fact that my wife loves both sex in general and in particular, sex with me.  I'll be happy with my progress when what my heart and my head tells me are the same thing.  I'll declare myself "well" when I can have wonderful sex with my wife for a few hours topped off with a good 15 minutes of her orgasming and NOT think, "wow, that was really nice of her to put out for me like that" *laughs*.  It wouldn't break my heart any if as a side bonus, hanging around all you twisted deviants (*laughs*) added some new and interesting angles into the whole thing.  Insofar as not being the sexual top, that was an interesting point.  She enjoys being the sexual top herself so I'm familiar with giving her commands that amount to "pleasure me".  great fun is had by all.  But still, on this one, there's some bad thinking going on inside of me and i need to face it head on, not hide behind such commands.  It just took me a while to realize that my fears with my mastery in general weren't about mastery in general.



SimplyMichael -> RE: A personal insight (8/12/2008 5:52:34 PM)

527,

We need to sit down and have another beer, perhaps even a LOT of beer.  Isn't this place great?  Anyway, Red is, as always, spot on.

However, don't think of personal issues as "fixed" they tend to have layers and you slowly peel them away only to find another one underneath.

I liken BDSM to a language and a playground.  We have a language for going inside, dragging weird shit out of our past and playing with it, often turning it on its head.   For me, one of my issues is being accepted and nurtured...I long one day to be in an emotional place with the right woman to allow her to mother me and be accepting and nurturing.  Not in a power sense but in a "I love my little boy" sense.  I have no idea what exactly that will look like or where it will go but I can sure as hell bet I will cry my eyes out before during or after or all three.

Figure out a way to drag out your bad sex stuff and turn it on its head.  Know you have a real partner who loves you and is going to work through whatever crap spills out.  Embrace that and let go, see where it takes you.

And we DO need to sit down again soon, I could use a long talk myself as well.



KnightofMists -> RE: A personal insight (8/12/2008 6:10:59 PM)

First your right.. this has been a great thread... for alot of reasons... my compliments of having the strength and courage to put yourself out their like that.... I am also happy to see so many of quaility individuals provide some excellent thougths to the thread.

a few more thoughts... someone inferred that it might not be just one thing but a multiple issue kinda of thing.  I have to agree with that.  Seldom are our problems the result of one specific issue.  I suppose the best you can do is fine an answer that seems to resonate with you... take action... revaluate and then take another step.  In essence... a process as RedMagic was talking about.

You also shared the idea that old tapes (beliefs etc) are in your belief structure that might be affecting how you see things.  I think that makes alot of sense... but... I would even say it is old tapes... We are raised with a set of values and principles and alot of times we don't even consider them as hit adulthood.  Living the lifestyle I live... I found that I had to revisit alot of my apparent beliefs and value structures.  I had to take a good instrospect look at myself and ask... What do I believe... What do I value...  Not because I was taught those things.. but make them my own or disgard them if they don't belong. 

Lastly... one has to give themself permission to be who they are.  So much of what we are is contrary to society and even the values taught by our families.  We have to be ok with that.  We have to be ok with ourselves being who we are. 



Maxwell67 -> RE: A personal insight (8/12/2008 6:37:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
We have to be ok with ourselves being who we are. 

Amen!  Oh this one little phrase still plagues me too, don't get me wrong.. I have had serious issues all my life about what my dominant tendencies mean about me and on more than one occasion came to the conclusion that I am just downright evil.  I am getting over it. A lot of my baggage cleared away on its own shortly after the day I went from "emotional vampire" to "reformed emotional vampire" but I still have my demons to contend with  I have felt the urge to go into politics or the religion biz more than once and squished it hard each time for that reason.  I hold considerable power over one person now, and I strive to use it responsibly.  I do not want to tempt myself with the kind of power having a larger group of people whose lives I could control would give me.



wandersalone -> RE: A personal insight (8/13/2008 8:24:14 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Honestly, I know for a fact that my wife loves both sex in general and in particular, sex with me.  I'll be happy with my progress when what my heart and my head tells me are the same thing.  I'll declare myself "well" when I can have wonderful sex with my wife for a few hours topped off with a good 15 minutes of her orgasming and NOT think, "wow, that was really nice of her to put out for me like that" *laughs*.


This comment of yours for me is interesting Leadership.  As humans we can spend so much time in our heads and even the most fantastic experiences can be coloured by doubt, fear, uncertainty etc.  Sometimes asking why is difficult as there may not be a black and white answer... there may not even be an answer, sometimes it simply is.  It is wonderful to acknowledge your thoughts and feelings, allow them to be there, see if you can take a step back and watch these thoughts of distrust or worry etc as they pass by in your mind.  Don't try to judge them (eg. I am a crap dominant for having that thought), don't try to change them (eg I shouldn't be having that thought) - just let them pass by.  I bet you could even have the thought that your wife is only having sex with you because she is nice and you could both still have a beautiful time together. The thought isn't you, your actions are you. It is possible to have unhelpful thoughts, fears, worries etc and still be the dominant and husband you want to be.  Similarly, I could have the thought that I suck at my job and I could at the same time continue to excel in it.  I am not my thoughts.

Apologies for not answering the 'why'question and going off on a tangent. [:)]



leadership527 -> RE: A personal insight (8/13/2008 12:28:34 PM)

Well, since I trotted this whole little mini-episode through the forums, I though it only fair to post the happy ending (well, at least... one more step down the path.  As has been noted, such things don't typically "go away" over night).

My wife, who'd been getting this whole thread via chat while she was at work, apparently decided that if I was unsure of my welcome sexually with her, then she was clearly not doing her job as my genuine, official sex toy.  That resulted in her coming home from work and offering herself to me in such a wantonly submissive sort of way that no matter what nasty tape might've wanted to play in my head, the "facts on the ground" as it were, were just too compelling -- her invitiation too sincere to hold onto the bad thoughts.  So we had a wonderful evening of wild animalistic sex and I am feeling much more confident in general.  And, for extra credit, I got to remember, yet again, why it is so wonderful to have a partner..



Maxwell67 -> RE: A personal insight (8/13/2008 1:10:18 PM)

Hooray for the love of a good woman!  It is so cool see that things worked out so wonderfully for the both of you.  Gratifying as well, since your post sort of implies we at CM might be able to point at this thead and say "And I helped!" [:)]

It probably won't be the last time this sort of problem pops up, but you have set a great precedent in proving that when it does you can handle it together.





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