RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/18/2008 5:20:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Chicago Seven were bound and gagged in your Supreme Court before the eyes of the whole world. The Chicago Seven never even appeared in the US Supreme Court. He doesn't like facts to get in the way of post's

meatcleaver -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/18/2008 5:21:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u No Meatcleaver you cannot state something as fact be shown to be wrong ,and than say same thing.Recognising a government is not and never will be the same thing as a declaration of said government's existance.In the former you are merely aknowledging the said state in the latter you are declaring and forming said state...For instance the US recognised the State of Isreal in 1948 they did not declare Isreal's independance,as I said in my first post a small but major difference in distinction slvemike4u, the US spent months on a diplomatic effort to get countries to recognize Kosovo's independence, you are now in the process of splitting hairs.

meatcleaver -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/18/2008 5:30:16 PM)
In fact slvemike4u, the US and several European countries threatened Serbia with all sorts of threats and sanctions to make Serbia acquiesce so to say the US and the other countries were passive bystanders is an absolute lie.

slvemike4u -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/18/2008 5:55:38 PM)
Well Meaqtcleaver if I'm splitting hairs it is comforting,to me atleast to have the FACTS! on my side....

Owner59 -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/18/2008 7:06:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius Obviously their wanting to join NATO, was an aggressive act, designed to overthrow Moscow. After what happened at the hands of the nazis,they aren`t going to take being threatened,even a little,sitting down. Anyone who knows about the Russians, knows that.That`s not excusing Russia but rather just acknowledging reality. Again,if you poke at a dangerous animal,you might get hurt.Or worse,you might get someone else`s loved ones hurt. This cute pseudo-naivete about what`s going on, is getting tiresome. Bush and Putin are playing chess w/ real live pawns.Problem is, there`s only one smart guy at the chess board. And the Georgians will pay the cost of the amateur chessman. I`m also tiring of the "Russia can only be wrong,their foes can only be right" logic. It`s nothing more that intellectual sloth.Make points on the merits,not cold war hysterics.

slvemike4u -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/18/2008 7:25:21 PM)
Owner the merits in this case are such that Russia is acting like the Soviet Union...This isn't 1956 or 1968....which apparently Putin is not aware of, Russia can not be allowed to cow all the former republics by rolling out the Tank divisions....give the partisan stuff a rest here huh!!!

Owner59 -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/18/2008 7:35:24 PM)
I`m not excusing the ruskies.They`re rascals and bad faith players. So is China,so is Saudi Arabia,etc. We still do business with them and sleep like babies. Putting missiles in Poland,bad idea. I don`t believe the shpiel about those missiles being there to protect against Iranian attack.That`s bull shit,on the face of it. I know the Russians are lying to me and I adjust. I`m getting tired of my leaders lying to me.I`m tired of the Georgian president`s BS too.

slvemike4u -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/18/2008 7:43:10 PM)
All good and well Owner but this is not about your leaders lying to you,This is about Russia telling it's neighbors that they are sovereign only as long as they don't get to chummy with the west....as you said the Cold War is supposed to be over ....they can not be allowed to return the former Republic's to vassal state with out the West responding.No matter who is sitting in The Oval Office!!!!

meatcleaver -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/19/2008 3:02:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Owner the merits in this case are such that Russia is acting like the Soviet Union...This isn't 1956 or 1968....which apparently Putin is not aware of, Russia can not be allowed to cow all the former republics by rolling out the Tank divisions....give the partisan stuff a rest here huh!!! No it isn't, it is acting like any state would when its citizens are being ethnically cleansed and murdered. The US was acting like the USSR when it invaded Granada and Iraq.

meatcleaver -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/19/2008 3:08:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u All good and well Owner but this is not about your leaders lying to you,This is about Russia telling it's neighbors that they are sovereign only as long as they don't get to chummy with the west....as you said the Cold War is supposed to be over ....they can not be allowed to return the former Republic's to vassal state with out the West responding.No matter who is sitting in The Oval Office!!!! You should really look at US foreign policy, the US started all the problems by breaking diplomatic promises and encroaching on Russian borders. The missiles for Poland and Chzech are not for their protection but are an aggressive move by the US. The US keeps saying the missiles are defensive, they aren't. They are part of an overall aggressive strategy in the Russian sphere of influence. If Russia sited so called defensive missiles Mexico, the US would call it an aggressive act. Look in the mirror.

Thadius -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/19/2008 6:40:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Owner the merits in this case are such that Russia is acting like the Soviet Union...This isn't 1956 or 1968....which apparently Putin is not aware of, Russia can not be allowed to cow all the former republics by rolling out the Tank divisions....give the partisan stuff a rest here huh!!! No it isn't, it is acting like any state would when its citizens are being ethnically cleansed and murdered. The US was acting like the USSR when it invaded Granada and Iraq. Is Grenada an American colony now? Is the US going to make Iraq a commonwealth? Is Russia planning on allowing the 2 provinces they have invaded to become free sovereign nations? Who is being naive here? Russia is using military force to make former satelites kowtow, and some suspect trying to bring them back into the folds of a Soviet umbrella. Who were they targeting/protecting with this? http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iaHR8v4yMeLwq8hWuC1tk6urm8lQD92IKLP80 quote: TBILISI, Georgia (AP) — An international rights group said Friday it has evidence that Russian warplanes dropped cluster bombs in civilian areas in Georgia.

Thadius -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/19/2008 6:44:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u All good and well Owner but this is not about your leaders lying to you,This is about Russia telling it's neighbors that they are sovereign only as long as they don't get to chummy with the west....as you said the Cold War is supposed to be over ....they can not be allowed to return the former Republic's to vassal state with out the West responding.No matter who is sitting in The Oval Office!!!! You should really look at US foreign policy, the US started all the problems by breaking diplomatic promises and encroaching on Russian borders. The missiles for Poland and Chzech are not for their protection but are an aggressive move by the US. The US keeps saying the missiles are defensive, they aren't. They are part of an overall aggressive strategy in the Russian sphere of influence. If Russia sited so called defensive missiles Mexico, the US would call it an aggressive act. Look in the mirror. So you are suggesting that the "missile defense shield" is not defensive? Please elaborate on this overall aggressive strategy, please include the part where the US is planning on attacking Russia, or invading.

RealityLicks -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/19/2008 6:45:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u All good and well Owner but this is not about your leaders lying to you,This is about Russia telling it's neighbors that they are sovereign only as long as they don't get to chummy with the west....as you said the Cold War is supposed to be over ....they can not be allowed to return the former Republic's to vassal state with out the West responding.No matter who is sitting in The Oval Office!!!! 1. Georgian sovereignty isn't in question. The Russians have hit only military targets in Georgia but they could easily have done enough to push the country into crisis and thereby effect regime change. They are graphically demonstrating to the people of Georgia that despite the primacy of Nato and the US, that no-one can or will fight for them - especially when they throw the first punch. It's too late for Saakashvili to claim the moral high ground; he started the shooting war. 2. The Cold War is over... what we have now is a Cold Peace. So do you really think that siting missiles on their doorstep helps? Russia still has a superpower's nuclear capability and a great airforce but it is in no way a match for the western powers. Even a "back world country" (respect due: kdsub) like Britain spends much more on defence than Russia does. But Russia is the regional power and countries in their orbit should understand the implications of that. 3. As for what the Russians can be "allowed" or "not allowed" to do... it would do Washington well to pipe down, so that European countries - who are directly involved - can resolve the mess Bush's malfunctioning "missile shield" has created. Russia has forced Georgia to show how unready it is for the responsibility of Nato membership and the increasing stridence of the US on the issue plays further and further into Putin's hands. Western disunity means instability and ensures the brakes are applied on Georgia and Ukraine's admission. Nato leadership is clearly prized in Washington but the tendency to go it alone and strike provocative bilateral deals, rather than concentrate on building consensus among its partners, is the Republican shortcoming in seemingly every area.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/19/2008 6:53:41 AM)
quote: As for what the Russians can be "allowed" or "not allowed" to do... it would do Washington well to pipe down, so that European countries - who are directly involved - can resolve the mess Bush's malfunctioning "missile shield" has created. Amazing how Bush is responsible for Putin's naked aggression towards a neighbor. I did not realize the extent to which poor Vlad is just a hapless tool of Bush's statecraft. Here's a novel thought: How about Putin piping down? How about Putin not behaving like a thug and bully? How about putting the burden of wrong where it belongs--on Putin's shoulders? Is "peace in our time" really so dear, Mr. Chamberlain?

Thadius -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/19/2008 7:02:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u All good and well Owner but this is not about your leaders lying to you,This is about Russia telling it's neighbors that they are sovereign only as long as they don't get to chummy with the west....as you said the Cold War is supposed to be over ....they can not be allowed to return the former Republic's to vassal state with out the West responding.No matter who is sitting in The Oval Office!!!! 1. Georgian sovereignty isn't in question. The Russians have hit only military targets in Georgia but they could easily have done enough to push the country into crisis and thereby effect regime change. They are graphically demonstrating to the people of Georgia that despite the primacy of Nato and the US, that no-one can or will fight for them - especially when they throw the first punch. It's too late for Saakashvili to claim the moral high ground; he started the shooting war. 2. The Cold War is over... what we have now is a Cold Peace. So do you really think that siting missiles on their doorstep helps? Russia still has a superpower's nuclear capability and a great airforce but it is in no way a match for the western powers. Even a "back world country" (respect due: kdsub) like Britain spends much more on defence than Russia does. But Russia is the regional power and countries in their orbit should understand the implications of that. 3. As for what the Russians can be "allowed" or "not allowed" to do... it would do Washington well to pipe down, so that European countries - who are directly involved - can resolve the mess Bush's malfunctioning "missile shield" has created. Russia has forced Georgia to show how unready it is for the responsibility of Nato membership and the increasing stridence of the US on the issue plays further and further into Putin's hands. Western disunity means instability and ensures the brakes are applied on Georgia and Ukraine's admission. Nato leadership is clearly prized in Washington but the tendency to go it alone and strike provocative bilateral deals, rather than concentrate on building consensus among its partners, is the Republican shortcoming in seemingly every area. 1. Gori and Ruisi are military targets? 2. Russia has nukes so everybody in their region must kowtow, understood. 3. So the US should just sit back and be quiet like the kids they are, because we all know how well remaining silent has worked in the past. Yep, the US are just cowboys, we go it alone and cut bilateral deals to accomplish our goals. This opinion must come from the same thinking that the US allies are simply lapdogs. How many nations are involved or were involved with the war in Afghanistan and Iraq? What happened to the vow from the Russian president that they would be withdrawing troops by noon YESTERDAY? Every report I have seen suggests they have been moving more troops and armor into Georgia proper. With that being said, who's word would you take?

RealityLicks -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/19/2008 7:05:26 AM)
I expected the complexity of the situation to escape you. [8\|] Once more for the cheap seats: if Saakashvili wanted to avoid a Russian counter-attack, he might have displayed the foresight not to first attack them.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/19/2008 7:17:20 AM)
quote: Once more for the cheap seats: if Saakashvili wanted to avoid a Russian counter-attack, he might have displayed the foresight not to first attack them. Once more: There was no counter-attack. Russia invaded Georgia. After all the Russian apologies are said and done, South Ossetia remains Georgian territory. Russia invaded Georgia. Calling it a counter-attack is a wonderful bit of Orwellian double-speak, but Russia is the aggressor, Russia is the invader, Russia is the nation in the wrong. Georgia is the wronged nation. There are no sophistries that can alter that. This is not a complex situation. It is a simple one. Russia is a thug nation, a bully nation. That is the whole and complete essence of this situation.

RealityLicks -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/19/2008 7:20:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius Yep, the US are just cowboys, we go it alone and cut bilateral deals to accomplish our goals. The missile shield - which still doesn't work apparently - is not a Nato initiative but a US one. Please show me a Nato leader who approves of this move. Now why are the US putting defences between Europe and Iran that are not sought even by our own defence chiefs? quote: This opinion must come from the same thinking that the US allies are simply lapdogs. How many nations are involved or were involved with the war in Afghanistan and Iraq? Why? What has that to do with what I said This will get very tired, very fast if you're going to use the telepathy, Thadius. Stick to what I write, not what you want to criticise.

RealityLicks -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/19/2008 7:25:19 AM)
You should have been in the Wu Tang Clan. quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 This is not a complex situation. Russia is a thug nation, a bully nation. That is the whole and complete essence of this situation. Ho-tel, mo-tel, Holiday Inn, If Saakashvili's acting up, Then you blame Putin. Can't take you seriously, cl.

Thadius -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/19/2008 7:29:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius Yep, the US are just cowboys, we go it alone and cut bilateral deals to accomplish our goals. The missile shield - which still doesn't work apparently - is not a Nato initiative but a US one. Please show me a Nato leader who approves of this move. Now why are the US putting defences between Europe and Iran that are not sought even by our own defence chiefs? quote: This opinion must come from the same thinking that the US allies are simply lapdogs. How many nations are involved or were involved with the war in Afghanistan and Iraq? Why? What has that to do with what I said This will get very tired, very fast if you're going to use the telepathy, Thadius. Stick to what I write, not what you want to criticise. We tried sticking to what you write, and it wound up in a tangent about the Chicago 7 being in hoods sitting in the Supreme Court with the whole world watching... How about answering the questions I posed to you... How are Gori and Ruisi military targets? Cluster bombing civilian targets is an acceptable negotiating tactic according to whom? Oh and finally, is Russia going to free the 2 provinces they have invaded?

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