RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/16/2008 3:13:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
...not the British...a small back world country even then..


A small back world country with an empire that spanned half the globe at the time. 

Seems some people are judging the past as if it was yesterday rather than 60 years ago, that is why you are all lousy historians.
Considering the source,I thank You for the compliment!!!!




Politesub53 -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/16/2008 3:15:31 PM)

Mike, so thats very very careful, hence the " surplus ammo "

Nudge wink ect.    [8D]




slvemike4u -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/16/2008 3:41:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Mike, so thats very very careful, hence the " surplus ammo "

Nudge wink ect.    [8D]
That would pretty much sum it up Polite guy [:)]




celticlord2112 -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/16/2008 3:58:17 PM)

quote:

This is broadly correct CL, The destroyers were not all fit for action, some were, while others needed minor refits and the odd few major refits. Most of these destroyers had been mothballed for ten years, and the main benefit was that these could be used mainly for convoy escort work, freeing up modern RN destroyers for other tasks.

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

In the profession of arms especially, and in life generally, there are no small contributions.

None of the US aid detracts from the valor of the British during WWII, but neither does British valor detract from the value of that US aid.

It is true that, by deciding to invade the Soviet Union, Hitler effectively shelved Operation Sealion indefinitely, and thus it is true that the RAF won the Battle of Britain.  However, would the British have won the other great battle of the early stage of WWII, Battle of the Atlantic, without those destroyers, or the subsequent Lend-Lease aid? 

As with all military "what-ifs", the answer is highly problematic.  As effective as the Nazi wolfpack tactics were, their U-boat fleet had several vulnerabilities--their over-reliance on the Enigma ciphers in particular.  Still, during the initial stages of the Battle of the Atlantic, the U-boat forces were very effective and Britain was in danger of being starved into submission.  It is not improbable that Britain would have sued for peace at some point were it not for US assistance (Rudolf Hess flew to Scotland believing that to be an immediate possibility).

It is highly improbable that Great Britain would have landed forces on the European Continent without US involvement.  Thus the outcome of WWII without US involvement would likely have been an acceptance of the Nazi Third Reich dominating Europe for quite some time, or possibly Stalin conquering Western Europe after bleeding the Nazi's at Leningrad and Stalingrad.

This is the real lesson to be drawn from Allied efforts during WWII, and even WWI:  peace comes when nations cooperate for a greater good, and prosperity comes when that peace has a chance to last.  The outcome of WWII, the subsequent era of peace on the European Continent--the longest since the days of the Roman Empire--and the relative prosperity of the European Union, prove this quite definitively.




Lockit -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/16/2008 4:16:51 PM)

I haven't read this thread but thought this might be interesting in considering it all and didn't want to start a new thread...    Bush tells Russia to get out of Georgia... 

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20080816/Bush.Georgia/




SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/16/2008 4:23:06 PM)

Haven’t you heard this thread is now about who won WW2[:D]




Lockit -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/16/2008 4:32:26 PM)

LOL I noticed that...




slvemike4u -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/16/2008 4:38:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Haven’t you heard this thread is now about who won WW2[:D]
That is due in great part to your denial and revision of certain historical facts...just trying to see that credit goes where credit is due,,,yanno[:D]




SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/16/2008 5:00:44 PM)

You mean I was incorrect about the BigMac food drop?




caitlyn -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/16/2008 5:25:34 PM)

General ...
 
Prof. MacGregor Knox, Stevenson Chair at LSE, divides both wars into distinct phases.
 
In the First World War, he suggests that while the British and French did in fact stop the forward progression of Germany, the influx of fresh troops from the United States was vital to the final defeat of Germany. He also points to the ability of the AEF to rapidly increase their force pool, from seventeen thousand in in June 1917 to over a million, less than nine months later.
 
He makes a similar point concerning the Second World War, but places greater emphasis on American involvement, specifically the strong impact of the daylight bombing campaign, and the logistical muscle offered by the American partner. Even post D-Day, he makes valid points about the inability of XXX Corps to operate offensively without massive American air and artillery support.
 
"Common Destiny" is a good read ... if this sort of thing interests you.




kdsub -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/16/2008 6:06:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
...not the British...a small back world country even then..


A small back world country with an empire that spanned half the globe at the time. 

Seems some people are judging the past as if it was yesterday rather than 60 years ago, that is why you are all lousy historians.




Yea right they couldn't even span across the Channel... they were nothing but paper tigers and Hitler knew it.

Now don't think I am putting down the UK...I mean the US is quickly becoming a paper tiger now too. The fact is the UK could not defend itself without the aid of the US...for whatever our reasons when and where to fight.

Butch


Butch




SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/16/2008 6:09:36 PM)

They mobilised a lot of other common wealth nations who wouldn't have otherwise joined the war in Europe you underestimate their role because you judge them by today’s standards, always a mistake.




slvemike4u -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/16/2008 8:04:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

They mobilised a lot of other common wealth nations who wouldn't have otherwise joined the war in Europe you underestimate their role because you judge them by today’s standards, always a mistake.
Young man,it is way past ironic to see you point out the mistake "others"make ,when discussing a history it would seem you know little of...




RealityLicks -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/17/2008 5:04:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

General ...
 
Prof. MacGregor Knox, Stevenson Chair at LSE, divides both wars into distinct phases.
 
He makes a similar point concerning the Second World War, but places greater emphasis on American involvement, specifically the strong impact of the daylight bombing campaign, and the logistical muscle offered by the American partner. Even post D-Day, he makes valid points about the inability of XXX Corps to operate offensively without massive American air and artillery support.



Then Knox is a better diplomat than he is a historian.  Look, there's no question that American air forces were vital to eventual victory but without the RAF first defeating the Luftwaffe, they wouldn't have had the opportunity to do so.  It was yet another German strategic mistake to shift their focus to the eastern front (where this thread started and may return, hopefullly).  But the first daylight bombing campaign was hardly a success.  That only came in 45 with the increase in numbers of fighter escorts - Mustangs etc. and owed more to the fact that the USSR and Britain were already out-producing the Germans.

The Germans would have shot Hitler and surrendered in 44 if the Allies were not committed to the Nazis unconditional surrender.  Just ask Tom Cruise.  US numerical superiority was indispensible in beating a more concentrated, dug in German military reduced to their strongholds in Germany, Yugoslavia, Austria. 

But there is no question of Britain having to "learn German" if not for the US entering the war.




slvemike4u -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/17/2008 5:42:33 AM)

Reality being an insomniac and bored shitless I just reread this whole thread looking for the offending post where anyone had the temerity to suggest if not for the US Britain would have had to "learn German"...couldn't find it.
 




caitlyn -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/17/2008 6:19:18 AM)

I believe Dr. Knox has the contribution of the RAF covered in his two phase approach.
 
Mustang fighters started escorting bombing missions in late 1943 and were available in very large numbers as early as February 1944. The summer of 1944 was actually the peak of the American bombing against industrial targets.
 
Its nice to know we have historians with your obvious curriculum vitae, right here on CollarMe. [8|]




RealityLicks -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/17/2008 7:44:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Mustang fighters started escorting bombing missions in late 1943 and were available in very large numbers as early as February 1944.

 
But daylight bombing started in 1942, Miss Historian, was inaccurate due to the shortcomings of the US Norden bombsight and could not be sustained due to massive losses.  The later arrival of the Mustang allowed the operation to resume and achieve its objectives. 
 
quote:


The summer of 1944 was actually the peak of the American bombing against industrial targets.

 
Strange.  I had thought 44 was about destroying the Luftwaffe in advance of D-Day and that priority targets were Luftwaffe bases and their supply chain.  I had thought that once France was retaken and Mustangs could be based there, too, it made the intensification of bombing Germany's industrial base feasible.

 
quote:


Its nice to know we have historians with your obvious curriculum vitae, right here on CollarMe. [8|]


I'm glad it's such a comfort to you and I want you to feel free to approach me for further instruction at any time.  You certainly are a willing pupil, if not an apt one.




caitlyn -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/17/2008 8:17:10 AM)

Well, you can certainly question my knowlege of history ... I'm twenty-two years old ...  but in a previous post where you questioned someone sitting in the Stevensen Chair at LSE ... well, you will excuse me if I see that for what it is.
 
Not going to get in a point counterpoint, other than to say that your previous comment:
 
"But the first daylight bombing campaign was hardly a success.  That only came in 45 with the increase in numbers of fighter escorts - Mustangs etc. and owed more to the fact that the USSR and Britain were already out-producing the Germans."
 
... is wildly inaccurate, specifically the 1945 date. American 8th and 15th AAC dropped nearly twice the tonnage on industrial targets in 1944 as it did in 1945 ... Bomber Command well over twice in 1944 as it did in 1945.
 
The attempt to skip to 1942 ... is off topic in a thread that is now entirely off topic. [;)]




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/17/2008 6:03:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Haven’t you heard this thread is now about who won WW2[:D]
On Bondage.com the progression is like this:

Topic ----> fighting wars -----> WW2 -----> Soviet tank tread width




kdsub -> RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland (8/17/2008 8:55:24 PM)

Things would be pretty boring if you could not follow a few side tracks from a subject. Hell who cares..are you really going to change your mind by what is posted here? Is this site important to world events in any way? We...or at least I ...am here for one reason only...to have fun.

Sometimes I'll have fun at your expense...and sometimes you will have fun at mine...If it's not fun then why come here?

Butch




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