NATO and Russia, latest news

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Vendaval -> NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 11:49:15 AM)
Latest news on discussions between NATO and Russia. And remember this is not a thread about WW2! "Russia hits back at NATO warning" Tuesday, 19 August 2008 19:07 UK Russia has dismissed a warning by Nato that normal relations are impossible while its troops remain inside Georgia." "Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov accused Nato of bias and of trying to save the "criminal regime" in Tbilisi. He insisted Moscow was not occupying Georgia and had no plans to annex the separatist region of South Ossetia. Earlier, Nato demanded that Russia pull out its troops from Georgia as agreed in an EU-brokered ceasefire plan signed by both parties at the weekend. Russian President Dmitri Medvedev told his French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy in a phone call that the pull-out would be complete by 21-22 August, with the exception of some 500 troops, who will be installed in peacekeeping posts on either side of South Ossetia's border. Some Russian troops have been seen leaving Gori, the largest Georgian town close to the South Ossetia border. But BBC correspondents on the ground say there are still Russian artillery positions in place. In addition, there are Russian checkpoints close to the Georgian capital, Tbilisi." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7571104.stm

slvemike4u -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 11:58:51 AM)
And now the west must live up to it's "promise" and isolate Russia till she withdraws,there would seem to be no other response open to responsible Nations...

Vendaval -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 12:20:38 PM)
Yes, that is how I see it too.

slvemike4u -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 12:24:26 PM)
Beware Vendaval,before you know it the apologist's for Moscow and Putin will show up and the thread will degenerate to old cold war rhetoric(in answering these apologist's I am as guilty as anyone else)...it is inevitable

Thadius -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 12:31:12 PM)
Reuters is reporting: quote: Col.-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy head of Russia's General Staff, told a daily military briefing that the withdrawal was "flowing slowly now because a pressing need has arisen to create new posts for peacekeepers".

celticlord2112 -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 1:14:51 PM)
Translation: Russia wants to stall on the withdrawal, doing maximum damage to Georgia in the process. All in the name of "peacekeeping". quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius Reuters is reporting: quote: Col.-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy head of Russia's General Staff, told a daily military briefing that the withdrawal was "flowing slowly now because a pressing need has arisen to create new posts for peacekeepers".

kolekorin -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 1:30:21 PM)
I like this thread. My thoughts: Even though I hate it, Russia has totally won this battle on all fronts including political. Really, what can you do when Western and Eastern Europe depend on Russian natural resources? The advance of NATO to the Russian border has been effectively prevented. I feel we were let down by our state department. Condoleeza Rice, the supposed Russian expert who speaks and taught Russian at an ivy league school needs to be removed and replaced....like Rumsfeld was. I support many of this Administration's policies.....I simply have no faith in their competence to effect them. We've

Mercnbeth -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 1:36:42 PM)
I can see NATO 'blinking' a lot sooner than Russia. Deluding themselves that the 'cold war' ended with the collapse of the Berlin Wall, Europe has come to rely on Russia as a major source of oil and natural gas. The quoted article is dated (May 2008 - ergo the price discrepancy), however, it points to a pragmatic problem that stands in the way of NATO putting any substance behind their position. quote: How do you deal in the world of tomorrow with a country whose energy exports are close to reaching a milestone of US$1 billion per day? Russia's benchmark Urals crude topped a record of $100 per barrel this week and once it trades at $107.5 per barrel, the daily value of crude, refined products and gas exports will hit $1 billion. And, Russia's 2008 budget is based on an average Urals price of $65 per barrel. Source: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/JC15Ag01.html That represents a lot of clout both in cash (Euros) and resources. Outside the Middle East, where instability is the norm, and without the scrutiny of any internal environmental interests, Russia stands to be able to influence the world now much more than when they attempted to do so relying exclusively on military might.

slvemike4u -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 1:44:58 PM)
And yet Merc what we are watching is Russia resort to military influence's against the former republic's.Russia still needs the west to convert those petrodollars to hard cash,the west still has recourse and can allways pray for a mild winter...

kdsub -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 1:47:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u And now the west must live up to it's "promise" and isolate Russia till she withdraws,there would seem to be no other response open to responsible Nations... Wouldn't it be nice if this nation...meaning the US... had the moral high ground when it comes to such actions. Don't you understand how much of the world sees no difference between Russia and Georgia… and the US and Iraq. They see us as hypocritical and arrogant to be up in arms with Russia why we do exactly the same thing in Iraq. This attitude to us by many in the world is the direct result of Bush’s policies. Where we were not always liked we were at least respected for more than our military might…no longer. Bush should shut the hell up and let Europe handle this situation. We are too tainted and not trusted by the rest of the world, which will hinder rather than help the resolution of this problem. It is a sad circumstance that a patriot…me….has to utter the words above…pitiful. Butch

pahunkboy -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 1:53:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kolekorin I like this thread. My thoughts: Even though I hate it, Russia has totally won this battle on all fronts including political. Really, what can you do when Western and Eastern Europe depend on Russian natural resources? The advance of NATO to the Russian border has been effectively prevented. I feel we were let down by our state department. Condoleeza Rice, the supposed Russian expert who speaks and taught Russian at an ivy league school needs to be removed and replaced....like Rumsfeld was. I support many of this Administration's policies.....I simply have no faith in their competence to effect them. We've where did you come from. A cool poster w a brain, welcome. On the mess... there is mis-information. so who to beleive? My thoughts are- what took Russia so long? They of course were going to play around. Did we honestly expect them and others to do absolatuly nothing? The world knows we are extended. We are supposed to be able to fight a war on 2 fronts. Bloodshed has been in that region for centuries. So why are "we" special. Ild like to know. We are arragant and follish. Someone must end this madness. As we were warned many years ago- the industrial military complex. well you know how auto debits "happen" to your account. so too is this autipilot. Who has anything left to care? I mean with all the sad weariness terriebleness in the world- why is this any worse? See you in the bomb shelter.

celticlord2112 -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 1:58:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kolekorin I like this thread. My thoughts: Even though I hate it, Russia has totally won this battle on all fronts including political. Really, what can you do when Western and Eastern Europe depend on Russian natural resources? The advance of NATO to the Russian border has been effectively prevented. They have may have won the battle, but it could prove to be a Pyrrhic victory. Putin has made Europe dance to his tune, and has done so by essentially rubbing the EU's collective nose in their dependence on Russian oil. The EU has the technology and the skill--and now the incentive--to change their energy consumption to remove that dependence. Putin's lever eventually has an expiration date. Meanwhile, the EU will likely work to keep respectful distance (and more) from Russia--to move closer either economically or diplomatically would put the nations of the EU in harm's way. Peace cools to a new Cold War.

kolekorin -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 2:07:25 PM)
lol YOu know what gives us the moral high ground? We HAD UN approval. The legality was there, the moral high ground was there. If you would like, I can dig up the research I did in high school just before we went in to Iraq when I was trying to decide if I support the actions of the administration that represented me. Like I said before, I support the policies, but I doubt Bush's administration possesses the sophistication to make them work the way they could. Oh, and by the way, we also gave Iraq about a decade to comply and gave plenty of warning knocks. Russia launched a blitzkreig. lol And aside from Germany, Canada, and France (Who, surprise surprise, is going more conservative.) whose respect did we lose? The Saudi's? Iran's? We had italy, spain, england, Japan, korea, (Who is kicking plenty of ass in the olympics by the way, tip of my hat to ya'll.) I have no problem saying "if you point a gun in my face I'll blow your brains out". Guns have been pointed at us, and we should shoot before we no longer have the chance.

pahunkboy -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 2:07:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: kolekorin I like this thread. My thoughts: Even though I hate it, Russia has totally won this battle on all fronts including political. Really, what can you do when Western and Eastern Europe depend on Russian natural resources? The advance of NATO to the Russian border has been effectively prevented. They have may have won the battle, but it could prove to be a Pyrrhic victory. Putin has made Europe dance to his tune, and has done so by essentially rubbing the EU's collective nose in their dependence on Russian oil. The EU has the technology and the skill--and now the incentive--to change their energy consumption to remove that dependence. Putin's lever eventually has an expiration date. Meanwhile, the EU will likely work to keep respectful distance (and more) from Russia--to move closer either economically or diplomatically would put the nations of the EU in harm's way. Peace cools to a new Cold War. I dont view EU as the loser here. A serious actions' to become energy independent must occur. We could have done it when we had the crises in the 70s== but we did not. So now the likes of China own T-billls and bonds that we spend on bombs and 10k army toilet seats/ Yes- a region does not want to be shut off. But from what I see- we are not serious here. Not really. Bucknell had the heat on too high over winter the kids all had sinuses over it. When I bike- I see ACs on when it is not hot- same with wasteful electric. Lights on all nigh and the old flood lights not the effieicnt bulbs. We are fake. Many of us. So the bill DOES come due one day. Which day? maybe today.

pahunkboy -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 2:11:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kolekorin. Guns have been pointed at us, and we should shoot before we no longer have the chance. God help us. It isnt that simple. I am not the smartest in the area- but......... It is FAKE. FAKE money- fake dollars- will soon buy- fake stuff...... others own our azz.

Owner59 -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 2:18:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u And yet Merc what we are watching is Russia resort to military influence's against the former republic's.Russia still needs the west to convert those petrodollars to hard cash,the west still has recourse and can allways pray for a mild winter... The soviets don`t need petro dollars when they`re quite happy with petro-euros.[;)] ~general reply~ Bush egged`m on and promised to back them up,only to come out looking impotent and dishonest,when the shit hit the fan. The Georgian president thought he had a US Senator in his pocket(Scheunemann/lobby-gate) and learned the hard way that 700,000 bucks only buys so much in Washington DC. After this,other nations(seeking help) aren`t going to trust us to keep our word. Fuck`n immature diplomat wanna-bees. Hey fans of WW III,could ya`ll stop using other people and other nations as your private, real life video game? Real people are dying or made into refugees.

pahunkboy -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 2:22:08 PM)
Owner- the likes of Deedee Myeres would not know how many wws there have been. im saying...

slvemike4u -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 2:30:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u And yet Merc what we are watching is Russia resort to military influence's against the former republic's.Russia still needs the west to convert those petrodollars to hard cash,the west still has recourse and can allways pray for a mild winter... The soviets don`t need petro dollars when they`re quite happy with petro-euros.[;)] ~general reply~ Bush egged`m on and promised to back them up,only to come out looking impotent and dishonest,when the shit hit the fan. The Georgian president thought he had a US Senator in his pocket(Scheunemann/lobby-gate) and learned the hard way that 700,000 bucks only buys so much in Washington DC. After this,other nations(seeking help) aren`t going to trust us to keep our word. Fuck`n immature diplomat wanna-bees. Hey fans of WW III,could ya`ll stop using other people and other nations as your private, real life video game? Real people are dying or made into refugees. Owner I too am looking forward to Jan.but your tendancy to see everything as a failure of Bush and co.is disturbing and predicatble at this point.Regardless of Bush's shortcomings(and they are many)this is Mr Putin's show and we would be well advised to keep our eyes on that ball,rather than listen to the distractive Bush bashing coming from some.....whether you believe it or not Bush is not the center of the universe(though he does seem to be occupying a central role in yours) Thanks for the corr. of my last post ,of course I meant euro's, either way hard cash

RealityLicks -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 2:36:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Russia stands to be able to influence the world now much more than when they attempted to do so relying exclusively on military might. At last, the breakthrough. The EU countries need Russian natural gas and the US will depend on Russia to support sanctions against Iran. Armies are over-stretched and need total rest, not redeployment. International institutions which might once have exerted a restraining moral influence have been broken - by Bush. Why else would Putin agree a ceasefire and then blatantly contravene it? To show the world (and most of all the Russian domestic and near abroad world) that his hand is very firmly up America's skirt ...and he has a handful of Bush and no-one can stop him.

Owner59 -> RE: NATO and Russia, latest news (8/19/2008 2:37:51 PM)
Deedee hasn`t been there for over a decade. Do you mean the current spokes-blond, Dana Perino?

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