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The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 2:10:39 PM   
celticlord2112


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The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men

An interesting perspective on how Obama's "nuance" and "judgement" might have failed him on the abortion issue.


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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 2:28:11 PM   
subtee


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Hmmmmm. I believe it is an article about those who are supposed to be leaders and stand up and declare what they believe and why, but instead engage in dishonorable shenanigans in order to dupe others into an outcome they don't have the guts to proclaim in the first place.

Shameful. 

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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 2:34:44 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Hmmmmm. I believe it is an article about those who are supposed to be leaders and stand up and declare what they believe and why, but instead engage in dishonorable shenanigans in order to dupe others into an outcome they don't have the guts to proclaim in the first place.

Shameful.

There's a lot about the politics of the abortion debate that is shameful. Quite frankly, this is one issue where simply voting "present" would be a morally defensible position for a politician to take. Legislatures are not always the place to solve society's problems.

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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 2:35:14 PM   
Thadius


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Interesting article.  The most telling passage of the entire thing was...
quote:

How could a law that adds nothing substantive to the federal code accomplish so much? Regardless of whether it ultimately has the pedagogical effect Arkes thought it would, there can be no denying that his bill has now made a noteworthy contribution--damaging the campaign of a pro-choice candidate for president. We don't yet know how significant that damage will prove to be. But if Obama loses the election by a narrow margin, Arkes and his theoconservative allies will have reason to congratulate themselves on their contribution to the outcome.
My emphasis with the underlining.

This is the first article that I have seen that has started to lay an excuse for Obama losing, if he does.  Claiming that this trap has been in the works for decades, seems a bit beyond the logical, as how could anybody have known then who would be running for office now, much less where a particular candidate would stand on the particular issue discussed.

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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 2:45:47 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Interesting article. The most telling passage of the entire thing was...
quote:

How could a law that adds nothing substantive to the federal code accomplish so much? Regardless of whether it ultimately has the pedagogical effect Arkes thought it would, there can be no denying that his bill has now made a noteworthy contribution--damaging the campaign of a pro-choice candidate for president. We don't yet know how significant that damage will prove to be. But if Obama loses the election by a narrow margin, Arkes and his theoconservative allies will have reason to congratulate themselves on their contribution to the outcome.
My emphasis with the underlining.

This is the first article that I have seen that has started to lay an excuse for Obama losing, if he does. Claiming that this trap has been in the works for decades, seems a bit beyond the logical, as how could anybody have known then who would be running for office now, much less where a particular candidate would stand on the particular issue discussed.

And yet the observation itself is rather accurate. I don't for a moment think that Arkes specifically envisioned Obama's candidacy when he began his campaign for this bit of legislation, but I do believe the notion that it is a cynical "trap" for pro-choice candidates is accurate.

I also believe it is a trap Obama walked into with his eyes wide open.

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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 3:07:52 PM   
Thadius


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To me it seems that Arkes was more interested in creating a slippery slope to reverse Roe, at least that is what the article suggests.  I agree that reversing Roe was probably the much bigger concern and goal, than setting a trap.

Even Hillary attacke Obama on this issue during the primaries, I am surprised it wasn't taken care of back then.  Perhaps, he felt it wouldn't come up again, or folks would just ignore it.  I have to agree with you, that of all the things Obama voted present on, this should have been added to the list.

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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 3:37:15 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Even Hillary attacke Obama on this issue during the primaries, I am surprised it wasn't taken care of back then. Perhaps, he felt it wouldn't come up again, or folks would just ignore it. I have to agree with you, that of all the things Obama voted present on, this should have been added to the list.

Obama's tendency to nuance and prevaricate on delicate issues has proven to be his undoing.

Given that he voted against the bill as a state Senator, the proper thing to do when Hillary called him on it was to state straight away that he believed it to be an assault on Roe v. Wade, that he believed it to be a cynical manipulation of the legislative process to undermine Roe v. Wade, and that the law did not alter the true dynamics of late-term abortions in the slightest. He should have argued that he voted against a bad law.

Instead, he tried to duck the issue entirely by essentially mis-characterizing his vote on the bill. It is yet another example of a time when Obama tells a small and really stupid lie.

I don't like Obama's politics, and I make no secret of not liking Obama's politics. However, as much as I dislike his politics, what I dislike even more is this insistence he has on not owning up to his words and his deeds. It is unseemly even in a politician, and it most definitely is not Presidential.

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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 3:46:01 PM   
Thadius


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I read an article the other night comparing last weekends remarks by him "I hate to say that people are lying, but here's a situation where folks are lying." to the Dole outburst of "Tell him to stop lying about my record."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/08/barack_obama_abortion_extremis.html
quote:

Confronted about this on CBN, he said the pro-life group was lying. But his campaign has now admitted that he had the legislative history wrong. Obama either didn't know his own record, or was so accustomed to shrouding it in dishonesty that it had become second nature.


For a new type of politician, he is surely acting like the typical politician these days... the same can be seen in his newest ads.  Instead of focusing on issues, they are worried about how many houses McCain and his wife own..

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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 3:50:41 PM   
Sanity


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It's like they're sinking to Rush Limbaugh's level of politics.

Sorry, couldn't resist...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
For a new type of politician, he is surely acting like the typical politician these days... the same can be seen in his newest ads.  Instead of focusing on issues, they are worried about how many houses McCain and his wife own..


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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 3:55:08 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
I read an article the other night comparing last weekends remarks by him "I hate to say that people are lying, but here's a situation where folks are lying." to the Dole outburst of "Tell him to stop lying about my record."

I read that same article.

Obama's candidacy is in big trouble, and not because he lied about his abortion votes. Obama himself is becoming THE central issue of the fall campaign. What he has said or not said is taking center stage in the public consciousness, and Obama himself is helping the process along with his stumbling performances away from the teleprompter.

That's not a winning position for any candidate.

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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 4:57:21 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

...Obama refused to vote for a bill that protects.....


Anyone who read past that phrase, is sooooo disqualified from commenting on anything to do with government, including the election.  Bills with hot button names are Frankensteined together specifically to provide slingable mud come election time.

A proposed 'Defense of Mom and Apple Pie Act' may have nothing in it to do with defending either Mom or pie, and could include nothing but empty rhetoric or worse, but anyone who voted against it will still be smeared with the 'Hates Moms and Apple Pie' label. And if they vote for it, they will be accused of voting for the empty rhetoric that was actually in the bill.

4th oldest trick in the book.  Hot air all around, but still suitable for the blind faithful to bludgeon each other with.

Which is why the real business of lining pockets and forwarding agendas gets buried in the middle of a 500 page mine safety appropriation bill, passed at 3 AM.


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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 5:41:57 PM   
Thadius


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Al,
The federal version of this bill passed with a voice vote, with no objections... Not one of the usual frankensteined bills, and hardly a difficult concept as to what it did, as the votes in both Houses of Congress show.

For the text of the now law: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h107-2175
For the votes: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h107-2175
Mar 12, 2002: This bill passed in the House of Representatives by voice vote.
Jul 18, 2002: This bill passed in the Senate by Unanimous Consent.

Obama's positions.
http://www.ilga.gov/senate/transcripts/strans92/ST040402.pdf starting at page 31... April 2002 
http://www.ilga.gov/senate/transcripts/strans92/ST033001.pdf starting at page 85... March 2001

I should point out that these protests were in opposition to a bill that was near identical to the federal legislation, which he said he would have voted for if given the chance.  Even his argument about being needing Roe neutrality, is a cannard as his committee handled the legislation that made it exactly that, as he required.

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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 5:49:22 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

How could a law that adds nothing substantive to the federal code accomplish so much? Regardless of whether it ultimately has the pedagogical effect Arkes thought it would,




It was never intended to actually make new law, it was an ideological stratagem.



quote:

The Born Alive Infant Protection Act is the brain-child of theocon Hadley Arkes, the Edward N. Ney Professor of American Institutions at Amherst College and a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington. The roots of the bill go back 20 years, to President George H. W. Bush's general election contest with Michael Dukakis. In a debating kit he was asked to prepare for the Republican candidate, Arkes made an extraordinary series of assertions. Abortion, he argued, could be considered a constitutional right only by denying the personhood of the baby prior to birth. But once this premise was implanted in the law, there was no principled way to outlaw any abortion at any time during pregnancy, right up to--and perhaps even beyond--birth. After all, biological science and sonogram technology both showed that the fetus in utero is substantially similar to a baby outside the womb. The "right to choose" therefore implied a right to infanticide--or as Arkes shockingly put it, a "right to a dead baby." As a rationalist, Arkes was convinced that such an implication at the level of principle would inevitably become a reality, as the culture slid down the slippery slope on which it had been precariously placed by the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade

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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 5:53:13 PM   
Thadius


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I already pointed that out, it was a plan to start a slippery slope for Roe to be reversed.

However the reason I pulled the last paragraph of that article and illustrated it, was for the last sentence.  Somebody is laying the framework for an excuse, that is not related to the many other issues.  Perhaps, even trying to use it as a reason for the arguably poor performance in current polling.

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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 5:54:44 PM   
Alumbrado


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Polls are another thing I have about as much faith in as grandly titled bills....




ETA:
Seriously.... abortion, gun control, 'the war', death penalty,  race relations, education...those aren't issues, they are 'The Ishoooozz!'.  Meant to distract and polarize, and scare people into voting against the evil 'Them' much more often than not.

Want to know what a politican's real views are, follow the money... see how they voted on the things that the lobbyists bought and paid for... which goes back to the 3AM buried items. 

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 8/22/2008 6:01:30 PM >

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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 5:57:37 PM   
Thadius


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Indeed.

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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 6:16:03 PM   
farglebargle


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The question of Abortion is the same question as Medical Marijuana.

WHO OWNS YOU?

If it's YOU owns YOU, YOU have an absolute right to do with YOURSELF whatever you chose to do -- EVEN IF IT DIMINISHES THE VALUE OF THE ASSET.

If the FEDS own YOU, then YOU DON'T have that absolute right, because the FEDS are concerned with retaining the assets' value, and since they OWN YOU they can tell you what you can or can't do.

I guess eventually, privacy aside, the "COMMERCE CLAUSE" governs the practice of abortion -- just like it covers everything else -- so the Federalist would have you believe.

Will they give up that in order to overturn Roe v. Wade? I don't think so. "States Rights" has been invalid since Lincoln went to war over the Secession in 1861.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 8/22/2008 6:19:54 PM >


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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/22/2008 10:24:37 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

ETA:
Seriously.... abortion, gun control, 'the war', death penalty,  race relations, education...those aren't issues, they are 'The Ishoooozz!'.  Meant to distract and polarize, and scare people into voting against the evil 'Them' much more often than not.

Yes, the classic "red herring" tactic in politics.

Want to know what a politican's real views are, follow the money... see how they voted on the things that the lobbyists bought and paid for... which goes back to the 3AM buried items. 

Follow the money, lies, secrets and bodies.



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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/23/2008 1:01:26 AM   
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I suspect for the next 8 years these will be called unintended consequenses of the know-nothing party. But they will make grreat and ponderous blustering of this central 'issue'. 

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RE: The Best Laid Traps Of Conservatives and Con Men - 8/23/2008 4:30:38 AM   
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    Please correct me if i am misinterpreting the bill, and the aggravation.  The OMG part of this bill while it was being discussed was the care of children born after a botched abortion, who had drawn breath, and breathed on their own but were somehow damaged or less than healthy.  The particular highlighted testimony regarded a Downs syndrome child who, having survived an abortion was left to die.  While this was not the only story involved, it was testified to in the Illinois legislature before Mr. Obama.  In order to work his way around the bill, and to accomodate the parent(s) of children in such condition, and apparently unwanted, Mr Obama wanted a clearer definition of what constituted a person.  Abortion issues aside, after all. now that i am safe, i can be pro-choice, i have survived my own pangs of consccience in this area.  Hoever,  it scares the crap out of me that a person who wants a sliding scale definition of "person" wants to try and initiate a universal health care program.  Anyone who is in the "Baby boom" generation or has had to care for the frail elderly might wonder if it makes any sense to allow someone (especially a potential president) to question, be confused about, or re-define personhood on either end of the spectrum.  Of course redefining a person's end of life, as well as beginning of life could certainly resolve a lot of Social Security issues.
    Of course, the only intention of this legislation was to set a trap for a potential candidate for president, and had nothing at all to do with the sanctity of life.  How could anyone be stupid enough to miss the real intent.

< Message edited by atursvcMaam -- 8/23/2008 4:33:09 AM >


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