"YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (Full Version)

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AAkasha -> "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/23/2008 9:07:45 AM)



The discussion about whether or not BDSM should be in the DSM led to the clarification that it is already in the DSM, if the urges related to bdsm meet these criteria:

"the person has acted on these urges with a nonconsenting person, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty."

With that in mind, looking at the second part ("caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty") - do you think people who must have bdsm or their fetish involved in every intimate and/or sexual encounter are more likely to be in this category, thus, unhealthily interested in BDSM?  There are people who like sex and S&M together, for example, and there are people that don't want to have any sex unless S&M is present.  The second group of people are going to have a much more limited pool of partners. If that inability to find a partner causes them "distress and interpersonal difficulty" then are they unhealthy?  I guess it's supposed to be subjective for a reason. 

Does BDSM make you happy? Has it ever made you extremely sad or depressed?  Have you ever thought "I wish I were vanilla, my life would be so much easier?"  Have you ever lost a relationship that was perfect in every way, except for sex?  Have you ever tried to get rid of your S&M urges because your partner wasn't into it, and you thought you loved them more than your kink?

I would really be interested to hear if someone has ever successfully "UNKINKED" themselves through therapy.  We could never know that here, of course, because those people are not reading these boards.  We will hear a lot though from people who TRIED and failed to "get rid of kink" and they are here seeking partners, reading, or lamenting.  But really -- maybe someone knows a kinky person as a friend who was unhappy, went to therapy, and now is a very happy person in a relationship living "happily ever after" -- have you seen it?  I simply think it's unlikely - I think "unkinking" a person is as realistic as changing their orientation from straight to gay or vice versa.

So it makes me curious if the psychiatric profession takes these cases of "unhappy kinky people" and tries vainly to unkink them, or tries to integrate them better into relationships (that's got to vary dramatically depending on the shrink of course.)  I also wonder if the wide variety of brain drugs out there include some that effectively do squash kinky triggers.  Personally I would never want to get rid of my urges - but I would be fascinated if they said they could give me a pill and the next month show me pictures of men in bondage and not have my insides get all fluttery. 

Akasha
 



sirsholly -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/23/2008 9:15:15 AM)

If the couple is kinky and both are comfortable with it... a therapist is not goint to try to de-kink. Nor will the therapist try to de-kink one if the other is not in agreement with the practice.
If a "lifestyle" couple sees a therapist for relationship issues it is a safe bet the issues are the same as those of a vanilla couple seeking therapy (although their are exceptions). Trust and communication are the biggies.





colouredin -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/23/2008 9:21:13 AM)

hmm I am into what i am into because it makes me happy, if it didnt make me happy then i wouldnt be into it,l seems to make sense to me, I dont look for partners in the vanilla pool because I know at the moment at least they wouldnt make me happy so i therefore wouldnt make them happy and that would just lead to drama, I would rather be single that settle to be honest. D/s itself has never made me feel unhappy and no I have never wished I werent into it, I have felt a bit embaressed or whatever but thats not the same it was just coming to terms with who I am really. People within the 'scene' have made me unhappy and sure at the time I blamed the lifestyle because it was conveniant in reality its just that some people are shits really.



missturbation -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/23/2008 9:35:07 AM)

quote:

Does BDSM make you happy?

To some degree yes. Other factors in my life have to be going well too though for me to be happy.

quote:

Has it ever made you extremely sad or depressed? 

Not as such no. My choice of partner or plain and simply my choices in bdsm have occasionally.
 
quote:

 Have you ever thought "I wish I were vanilla, my life would be so much easier?" 

No.
 
quote:

Have you ever lost a relationship that was perfect in every way, except for sex? 

No.

quote:

Have you ever tried to get rid of your S&M urges because your partner wasn't into it, and you thought you loved them more than your kink?

No.
 
There are some therapists out there who are not kink aware. Of course they MAY try to de-kink people but personally if i saw a therapist i would find one who was kink friendly.
 
quote:

"YKIOK but you are f!d up...."

I hear this all the time lol. Do i think i'm fucked up? Nah not at all i'm normal. Its the rest of the world that is crazy [:D]





Alumbrado -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/23/2008 9:35:48 AM)

"distress and interpersonal difficulty" would be losing your job, getting arrested, causing health problems, and so on. 

Just being unhappy because one's BDSM experience isn't everything they hoped for, is just life, not a disorder...[;)]



kiwisub12 -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/23/2008 9:44:35 AM)

I discovered my submission while in therapy  - and my therapist didn't try to "unkink" me. He calmed my freakout, and gave me some tools for exploring my submissive side, if i wanted to.    He was, and is, the consumate professional, and i still love him. [:D]



bipolarber -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/23/2008 10:01:27 AM)

Al, for once you and I agree. If they were to apply that standard of "distress and interpersonal difficulty" to straight vanilla relationships as well, I wonder how many of those would qualify as being something that needs to be "corrected" in one's life?

I've met any number of straight vanillas who seemed to be in heavy depression, or who were pulling all sorts of non-consentual BS on the person they were essentially stalking. Seems love and lust stir up some pretty extreme, irrational behavior no mater where you are on the Kinsey scale of kinkiness.



lovingpet -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/23/2008 1:01:29 PM)

Generally speaking the deficits have to be of a gross nature.  They have to so impinge on the well being of the person and others as to make day to day life difficult to impossible. 

That being said, the general trend in psychology is more that of social control than actually keeping to strict definitions of illnesses and disorders, hence the constant revision of the DSM.  Even the leading minds in the field cannot agree on what is actually dysfunctional behavior.  Most behaviors serve their purpose and, therefore, cannot actually be labeled dysfunctional (even if they are problematic to the person or society).  Assisting a person to develop other ways of meeting the same needs that are less in conflict with self and their fellow man is really the impetus for psychiatric intervention.  What if the person does not want to deal in a different way?  Therapy will fail.  Plain and simple.

If the kink as viewed as problematic by the therapist, it will only be "dekinked" if the patient also see it in the same light.  If the patient sees a kink as a problem, the therapist must then determine what role the kink is playing, why the person wants it changed, and how it will impact the patient.  Only then should any attempt to "dekink" take place and it should be done with the greatest of care.  That is why having a very competent and open minded therapist is very important.  I often advocate on the boards to seek therapy, but one must be sure the source is capable of handling the issues to be addressed.

No some morose moments about who a person is and what that means is not bad and does not qualify under this definiton, as much as some narrow-minded professionals would like it to.  It should, however make the person give pause and consider why they feel the way they do.

lovingpet 



IvyMorgan -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/23/2008 1:27:36 PM)

My mother thinks therapy will unkink me, does that count?

Or the fact that kink has been defined by said therapy group as self harm, so if I do it, I get "put on review", does that count?

Kink is about to cause me significant distress, as I debate whether to hit my head against a hard object (oops self harm, not allowed) or continue trying to educate the stupid/unwilling.  Does that count?

Weirdly, the psych doesn't hold this view, he's perfectly pro my being kinky as long as it safe and sensible.  (We don't do sane, it's too high a bench mark.)  Might be why I like him more/don't want to hurt him.

IME, you can stop *practicing* your kink, but it doesn't make you any less kinky.  Same applies to being LGB.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/23/2008 2:54:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Does BDSM make you happy? Has it ever made you extremely sad or depressed?  Have you ever thought "I wish I were vanilla, my life would be so much easier?"  Have you ever lost a relationship that was perfect in every way, except for sex?  Have you ever tried to get rid of your S&M urges because your partner wasn't into it, and you thought you loved them more than your kink?

I would really be interested to hear if someone has ever successfully "UNKINKED" themselves through therapy.  We could never know that here, of course, because those people are not reading these boards.  We will hear a lot though from people who TRIED and failed to "get rid of kink" and they are here seeking partners, reading, or lamenting.  But really -- maybe someone knows a kinky person as a friend who was unhappy, went to therapy, and now is a very happy person in a relationship living "happily ever after" -- have you seen it?  I simply think it's unlikely - I think "unkinking" a person is as realistic as changing their orientation from straight to gay or vice versa.

So it makes me curious if the psychiatric profession takes these cases of "unhappy kinky people" and tries vainly to unkink them, or tries to integrate them better into relationships (that's got to vary dramatically depending on the shrink of course.)  I also wonder if the wide variety of brain drugs out there include some that effectively do squash kinky triggers.  Personally I would never want to get rid of my urges - but I would be fascinated if they said they could give me a pill and the next month show me pictures of men in bondage and not have my insides get all fluttery. 

Akasha
 


I was forced into therapy for my 'unusual beliefs' twice by my parents, before I was legally emancipated -- both psychiatrists eventually determined that what I was wasn't a danger to myself or others... and that, regardless of how much they yacked, they weren't going to be able to brainwash me into devaluing those 'atypical' belief structures. I've also been mentally/hypnotically "worked over" by clergy of a couple of religions to attempt to eliminate my "unholy, sinful" behaviors.

The most recent foray came down several years ago when I lost my ability to walk and my vision to an intense short-term MS-like autoimmune/neurological failure. My Darling is a homeopath. The doctor who started homeopathy, Samuel Hahnemann was a product of his generation and of the Germanic and Austrian mindsets that brought us Freud -- so unusual sexual, sadistic, or masochistic urges get classified as "symptoms" in the litany of symptomology in order to form a clinical picture. The problem is that repressed homeopaths might read Hahnemann's or Kent's works and presume that these inclinations need to be 'fixed'.

When I started having severe problems related to my congenitally screwed up immune system, my Darling (who was still in homeopathic medical school pre-residency at the time) took me to see one of her instructors for treatment. One of his selling-points to my Darling was that, through treatment, I would lose all of my "abnormal" beliefs and interests (you know, my BDSM stuff, my alternative religious and spiritual views, my flaky philosophies...) This bothered me immensely, as I had -no- interest in losing those things, and the doctor didn't even want to discuss how I might feel about losing my "kinks". My darling said not to worry about it -- because despite her instructor's thoughts on my 'kinks' and on the mental aspects of homeopathy, she'd been reading it a lot differently and thought that a person did not just wander completely away from their core personality if xhe was truly "healthy"... so if this was really as much a part of me as I thought it was, it wouldn't just go away -- it was only when the symptoms were not part of the person's natural personality that they would fade with treatment. Her instructor told her she was wrong -- but time has proven her correct. I am actually even less 'mainstream' than I was when I started treatment, though the physical symptoms related to my congenital abnormality have responded sufficiently that I've already had an extra 7 years of productive, near-normal living.

I like who I am. I don't really care if the rest of the world thinks that it is 'normal', 'abnormal', strange, interesting, or whatever. In the end, liking myself means that my off-center, wobbly world is just the right place for me.

CFB



MercTech -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/23/2008 5:58:07 PM)

Functional... therapy is to get functional in a mainstream world.

I'm thinking of "The Secretary" too.  She found her right Dom and didn't do the self destructive cutting any more. <grin>

Stefan



YourhandMyAss -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/23/2008 6:17:14 PM)

Actually I can state quite personally that some will try very hard to convince you that bdsm and kink specific ones in general like wanting age regression and liking spankings are bad for you, because that's what my last therapist tried before I canned her as my therapist.


quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

If the couple is kinky and both are comfortable with it... a therapist is not goint to try to de-kink.



pixidustpet -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/23/2008 9:21:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Functional... therapy is to get functional in a mainstream world.

I'm thinking of "The Secretary" too.  She found her right Dom and didn't do the self destructive cutting any more. <grin>

Stefan


or you can confess your self destructive behavior and be told "tell me when you feel like that and we'll get your endorphin rush another way".  i adore Their wisdom!  [:D]

kitten



DesFIP -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/24/2008 9:22:17 AM)

I don't know how to define "cause interpersonal difficulty". I'd rather go for a end result definition. One that says if you can't get on with your daily life because of your fetish, then it's a mental health issue. If you use your free time and money to cruise the local shoe stores for sales, then your fetish isn't a problem.

If you miss work or spend the rent money on shoes, then it is. I find that's an easier way to look at it.



SteelofUtah -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/25/2008 3:10:35 PM)

**During a Rare Slow Moment at my new job I found this thread and felt the need to reply if only to this.... OH and Yes I am Okay**

I would like to respond to this however not quite to the questions forgive me if this somehow derails the thread that is not my intentions I just find that at the heart of this topic there is a very common issue that gets brought up and then cast off offten enough to make me question it myself.

Yesterday while fishing I had a wonderful conversation with the Greedy One, We were talking about how people get caught up in what BDSM "IS" and not on what the "Individual" is. Awhile ago I responded to a Thread saying that when one says M/s, the majority of people who see that term will associate it with Leatherfolk, Now when I said this I truely found it harmless. M/s in the terms Master slave are used by Leatherfolk, defining the relationship roles since BDSM by Purists simply means Bondage/Discipline/Sadomasochism and does not define the extent of the relationship. I could not site any websites determining it's origin I just know that when I was just getting involved in BDSM I joined an NLA group and getting that explanation was common place. I explain this because I felt it odd that we hold on so DEARLY to what something is and how to define it rather than to discuss what something COULD BE, and leave it up to the individual to decide.

Now I know you Lexophiles are chopming at the bit to dig into that and I understand, I am not a Lexophile, Lexicons usually upset me as they are so narrow in scope and then even the definitions use words that again could be defined differently. The DSM is a Lexicon, it is a list of words defined as Mental Illnesses and Ailments and the like. I have been asked if I think Sadomasochism should be removed from the DSM. I answer now with a resounding NO!!!! Absolutely Not! Why you ask? Because there are people out there who are Sadists to the extent that they will Kill for the Joy of it. Gacy, Dahamer, Fish, and many other serial killers are Sadists, They derive Pleasure from the act of inflicting pain, They KILL for Pleasure. To say that a serial killer doesn't suffer a mental illness is to say that there is nothing wrong with them and that any one of us is capable of doing what they did. Now some people will say that Yes all humans are capable of it, and physically yes many of us are however we also have a concience and the ability to determine the difference between right and wrong and I do not believe that serial killers do.

So Sadomasochism Is a Mental Illness, but not all who practice Sadomasochism are afflicted with said Mental Illness, there are those who require thier partner to be a fitting match and that they be consenting to thier desire and that protocols are taken for worst case senarios. You see it's the Individual that makes it what it is, not what it that defines the individual.

I see threads all the time that ask if a person would feel better if Kink were not in thier life, like somehow this lifestyle is what is wrong with a person. This lifestyle is ONLY what you want it to be. While talking to Greedy I mentioned that I once had an issue with a girl doing her chores, and I was informed that "Chores" are not a necessity for BDSM and that is Absolutely True but they are a Necessity in being in a relationship with me. See this isn't somthing that I follow along a guideline in order to live. I Live my life and associate myself with those of like mind and THAT is what living a lifestyle is.

If you aren't enjoying your life you need to look at yourself as an Individual and not look at the lifestyle for something to blame when things don't work the way you expect them too.

Most of us to some degree are fucked up, I have yet to meet someone who managed to make it to adulthood without some scars from something in thier childhood, where I come from it's called Character. Kink is just Kink, it is harmless in nature, it isn't untill the individual gets a hold of it that it becomes something dark or dangerous.

This Lifestyle does not define you, YOU define you. Just as What you do is defined by the WAY you do it. Sadosamochism is a Mental Disorder but Practicing Sadomasochism does not necessarly mean you HAVE that Mental Disorder.

Take care everyone.

Steel

**Who is Still dealing with trying to figure out why his new lap top from a very kind person does not want to load CollarMe**



IvyMorgan -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/25/2008 3:28:18 PM)

Steel:  Good to see you're okay, was wondering where you'd gotten to.

Re; sadomasochism is a mental illness and serial killers.

Don't get me wrong, some is definitly "wrong" with people like Bundy, but, and this also applies to such things as paedophilia, labeling their behaviour as resulting from a mental illness could be construed as removing some of the personal responsibility they bear for their actions.  "He/She couldn't help it, they're mentally ill".

Just a thought.



SteelofUtah -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/25/2008 3:37:08 PM)

There in lies the problem.

If they cannot help themselves from tarnishing society then it is societies job to remove them from society.

If a Pedophile is caught in the act then they should be removed from society, Now as to MY personal Methods I know few would agree with me, I happen believe in Justifiable Genocide so I will save you all my beliefs on that.

The Point is to Write something off as simply Mental Illness and then say "Well That Explains it" does a disservice to those who see the world differently.

If you want a Great Movie to watch on this subject rent "Lars and the Real Girl" a GREAT movie about dealing with a mind that processes issues differently. Some would easily lable one insane or Mentally Disabled when another might just say they need to work something out.

The Truth is BOTH CAN be true, neither answer is ALWAYS wrong, and this is what is wrong with trying to find some outer issue to determine why you are unhappy. HAPPINESS IS AN INSIDE JOB!!!!!!!!!

Love you all time to go I'll check in on where this goes although I may not be able to respond to it again today or even tomorrow for that matter.

Steel



lovingpet -> RE: "YKIOK but you are f!d up...." (8/25/2008 5:12:01 PM)

As one of many Steel of Utah admirers, I find it interesting to differ on this issue.  There are plenty of solid DSM definitions to use to find issue with serial killers and the like.  Various personality, organic, and emotional disturbance classifications can easily place a label on these folks if that is what society wants.

S&M is another issue altogether.  Practiced even in some very extreme forms, very normal and otherwise considered sane people interact in a consentual manner with a full knowledge and awareness of the consequences of their actions.  Just because someone can easily ignore such aspects does not make them mentally ill.  It may make them new or irresponsible or any number of other things.  Mentally ill is among them, but there are usually other indicators one could latch on to, just like with these serial killers.  S&M in and of itself is not disruptive to the individual so long as they have accepted who they are and society will leave them alone.  This is not the case with many other disorders where the very nature of the disorder automatically leads to major life problems such as the inability to concentrate, making poor decisions, and other factors.

Without the backing of a professional community, those who practice S&M the way I and many others choose to do could enjoy a bit more freedom from persecution, if not prosecution at some point as well.  Since S&M can be practiced in a non-destructive manner, it is automatically not a mental illness.  Depression, for example cannot be practiced in a way that does not negatively impact a person's everyday life (even in milder forms such as grief).  Take away the leverage of the courts either criminal or civil over people who are not harming anyone means taking away a convienent and misleading label such as mentally ill or danger to society. 

Generally I find the DSM poor for diagnostic criteria in the first place, but then also find many of the inclusions and exclusions to make matters worse.  I don't care what decision they reach as the manual is subjective and politically and culturally biased in the first place.

I doubt I made much sense, since I feel like I am rambling as it is.  I will be happy to clarify if desired.

lovingpet  



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