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RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/25/2008 3:24:14 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulnz

quote:



A big, buzzzzzz...you lose on this answer.
 
Jewel gave up her job for Scooter before they got married, about 5 years ago.


That's not what the OP says, here it is again:-

I moved in with Firm four months ago, and when I did, I left behind my professional career and the lifelong habit of earning a living outside the home.  Firm's instructions to me at that time were that he would provide for all my financial needs and in turn, my responsibilities would be to devote my time and efforts to taking care of him, his business, and his home.
 
The words " when I did " clearly indicate that the leaving behind occurred in order to facilitate the new arrangement and were not unrelated events. You appear to be inventing facts or imagining things.

When someone frames their current circumstances in terms of having foregone a previous benefit, things never seem to work out.


I'll let Treasure respond, if she wishes, in detail.

I'll just say that you might be under a bit of mis-apprehension. It was two years after Treasure and I met before she moved in (which was 4 months ago), and she has a pretty good idea of the challenge that faces her in learning my profession. As well, it was never a pre-condition that she not continue her career, if she wished to, and she has my permission, if she so desires.

These were issues discussed beforehand and are understood between us.

I'm not one of those who finds pleasure in having people do something that makes them unhappy.

Firm

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Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Paulnz)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/25/2008 4:12:04 AM   
Twicehappy2x


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twicehappy2x

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

Here, I'm territorial about my kitchen,Maam Jay aka violet[A]


OH, yes, a bit territorial about my kitchen, lol.
 
Gypsy will get to cook occasionally as well as fix Jewel's lunch daily but Scooter and Jewel have both stated they are not giving up their cook. 


Though gypsygrl has promised home made gnocchi, now....if she makes them, lol, i'd be really tempted to tell her where my secret kitchen stashes are.
 
Seriously, i do not mind sharing the kitchen, Wednesday i have a bushel of tomatoes to can and am going to enjoy having the extra hands in there.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/25/2008 5:54:01 AM   
Paulnz


Posts: 411
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulnz

quote:



A big, buzzzzzz...you lose on this answer.
 
Jewel gave up her job for Scooter before they got married, about 5 years ago.


That's not what the OP says, here it is again:-

I moved in with Firm four months ago, and when I did, I left behind my professional career and the lifelong habit of earning a living outside the home.  Firm's instructions to me at that time were that he would provide for all my financial needs and in turn, my responsibilities would be to devote my time and efforts to taking care of him, his business, and his home.
 
The words " when I did " clearly indicate that the leaving behind occurred in order to facilitate the new arrangement and were not unrelated events. You appear to be inventing facts or imagining things.

When someone frames their current circumstances in terms of having foregone a previous benefit, things never seem to work out.


I'll let Treasure respond, if she wishes, in detail.

I'll just say that you might be under a bit of mis-apprehension. It was two years after Treasure and I met before she moved in (which was 4 months ago), and she has a pretty good idea of the challenge that faces her in learning my profession. As well, it was never a pre-condition that she not continue her career, if she wished to, and she has my permission, if she so desires.

These were issues discussed beforehand and are understood between us.

I'm not one of those who finds pleasure in having people do something that makes them unhappy.

Firm


Ok, that clears that up, you sound like a pretty level headed chap.

You'll be aware that such a decision carries with it a fairly heavy financial penalty. Looking at the OP's age, she has 19 years of earnings foregone assuming the relationship lasts until retirement age. At a conservative $50,000 a year, that is $950,000 income over that time. Assuming $10K of that can be saved a year, the person leaving behind their career will be left $190,000 down in life savings ( not taking into account any compounding going on ). To replace this would mean about $100,000 extra would have to be invested today, to collect $190,000 in 19 years time ( assuming again that it could net 4% ). If that starter $100,000 isn't a gift, then $250,000 would have to be invested now. And this is being simplistic as the $10,000 invested now grows to be a lot more and is more valuable than $10,000 saved a year away from retirement. In real terms the ' foregoing of career decision ' is worth a lot of money and is a serious financial decision, and if it goes pear shaped ( the relationship that is ) the financial downside can be devastating.


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/25/2008 6:06:27 AM   
Paulnz


Posts: 411
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twicehappy2x


 
Why do you think giving up a career to take care of domestic or other things is a death knell for a relationship? You gave Treasure and Firm's relationship two years max.
 



That's easy to answer, the OP placed a finite value on it. How so ? By indicating the foregoing, which has a total income value based on the career path of the OP. The relationship will fail at the point the OP fully realises what zero income means. To focus on how this works, take what savings you have now, with just that to invest for growth. Nothing added to reinvested interest apart from inheritance, gifts and capital gains. What will it grow to by retirement compared to topping up every year from income earned ? The simple answer is the difference between the two positions is staggering. The person who continues to earn and save ends up much better off. There are exceptions but they're rare.




(in reply to Twicehappy2x)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/25/2008 6:17:18 AM   
KatyLied


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quote:

The person who continues to earn and save ends up much better off. There are exceptions but they're rare.


There are relationships where one breadwinner can easily make enough money/retirement for 2 (or more people).  I have a friend who is happily married and her only job is to take care of the home and make her husband's life easier. I work two jobs and I am envious of her easy life.  In my opinion it is an easy, princess life, and it was the choice she made and one she is happy with.  My life is more of a struggle, yet I am happy and fortunate to have the life I have and the material things I have.

Not everyone is equally materialistic.  There are other things in life that are more important than making sure you have more than enough money.  It depends on individuals/couples and where their finances/priorities are.  I figure if it works for them, it's great.  I would love to meet a guy who would tell me I no longer need to work.   




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(in reply to Paulnz)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/25/2008 6:29:24 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		In short, yup, it's a double standard and it's a common double standard for many women in the USA any way. Women are often trained as kids to see the home as their world, their realm and taking care of it as their job -- regardless of what else they do. Often boys are taught that outside chore or mechanical matters are "their chores". Let's be honest here: it's damned hard to break that early training.

As long as you are both happy with a division of labor and things that need to get done, get done, who cares if it is "fair or not"? The only time that matters, as far as I'm concerned any way, is if you project your way onto the world as the only or best way for everyone else OR if it starts to cause problems in your household.

For us it is important that everyone be able and willing to do everything -- inside or outside the house, earning income or not. I could walk out to get the mail today and get hit by a car... if the husband and slave can't cook or do laundry or manage the household in some fashion then they are in serious trouble. If the husband dies today and I'm not capable of taking on some outside job for income then I'm in a world of trouble as well.

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(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/25/2008 6:34:53 AM   
Paulnz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied


Not everyone is equally materialistic. 





I agree they're not, but the OP made reference to employment status and income, which are material concerns.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/25/2008 8:29:37 AM   
TreasureKY


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Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulnz

Here's my prediction and be honest with the outcome. You're 4 months in, which to me is the blink of an eye. In your current set-up I give it 2 years max if you haven't seen sense and diversified.


lol... Diversified?  My life right now is far more diversified and rich than it has ever been.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulnz

How do I know this ? You provided the answer from your own words:-

I left behind my professional career and the lifelong habit of earning a living outside the home.
 
In moving forward you already have things categorised as giving up something. When people look at things like that and the test is put to them further on, that sacrifice builds to resentment. The implication in your statement is that you saw yourself as having higher status before but now a lesser one. Not a good way to go forward IMO.


No.  I meant exactly what I said... I left it behind.  Just as when I divorced several years ago, I left behind 22 years of an unhappy marriage and moved forward with my life into much better circumstances for me.  There was no sacrifice on my part involved, then or now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twicehappy2x

I think you are taking Treasure's "i do all the domestic chores" to mean that is all she does. I'm willing to bet that she does more than that and learn Firm's business.


Twice is quite right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulnz

The words " when I did " clearly indicate that the leaving behind occurred in order to facilitate the new arrangement and were not unrelated events. You appear to be inventing facts or imagining things.


Well... actually you are reading into what I said.  I can understand your not being aware of the circumstances as I didn't elaborate them in this post, but you are assuming that the leaving behind of my career was a requisite in order for me to move in with Firm.  In actuality, it was not.  I was laid off from the position I held which created the opportunity for my move.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulnz

When someone frames their current circumstances in terms of having foregone a previous benefit, things never seem to work out.


You assume that I considered my career to be a benefit... it was, in fact, merely a means to earn a living when I had no other choice.  What was truly a benefit for me was the choice to live otherwise that Firm provided me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twicehappy2x

... In my case it was a "I want you home taking care of the house and me, not working outside the home" thing, just like Treasure and Firm's arrangement appears to be.

No, i am not resentful of this, i am quite happy actually.


As am I.

The key to all this is understanding that I am now doing what I've always wanted to do.  Before, I did what I had to do (work outside the home) in order to take care of myself and my responsibilities.  It doesn't mean that I hated working outside the home or that I would be adamantly opposed to doing so again if it was required, but it wasn't then and isn't now my first choice.  Where I am truly fortunate is that Firm feels the same way and has the means to facilitate his desires (and mine).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulnz

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Not everyone is equally materialistic. 


I agree they're not, but the OP made reference to employment status and income, which are material concerns.


Ummm... yes, but did it occur to you that it is Firm's "material concerns" that were my focus and not my own?  Taking financial responsibility for another person is a huge undertaking, and I understand that... hence my reminding Firm that I could financially contribute to our home should he feel it necessary.

(in reply to Paulnz)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/25/2008 1:47:29 PM   
ExSteelAgain


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Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		PaulNZ, isn’t that being presumptuous to say Treasure is going to end up in an unhappy relationship due to your interpretation of certain minor words, such as, “I did.”

For goodness sakes, you could debate the meaning of the words: is, did, had or whatever for a long time and put all kinds of meanings on them, but shouldn’t we try to get the big and accurate picture?

Read the entire post and get the meaning.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/25/2008 3:43:07 PM   
Paulnz


Posts: 411
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Ummm... yes, but did it occur to you that it is Firm's "material concerns" that were my focus and not my own?  Taking financial responsibility for another person is a huge undertaking, and I understand that... hence my reminding Firm that I could financially contribute to our home should he feel it necessary.



How does this work the other way though ? What are your financial concerns ? Can you sit down now and say in 20 years time where you'll be financially ? If you have got little idea, then you're in serious trouble - financially speaking. Most people would be able to say they intend (1) paying off debt, (2) substituting consumption for saving until retirement, and (3) investing in capital growth to mitigate the effects of inflation. Given that you now have zero income ( or close to ), how has your partner ensured that you will be no worse off ? Do you have a share of the house, business and other assets ? Are these in your name ? Does his Will include you and is his life insurance for your benefit ? etc. etc.


(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/25/2008 3:44:16 PM   
Paulnz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

PaulNZ, isn’t that being presumptuous to say Treasure is going to end up in an unhappy relationship


It is presumptuous, you're right, doesn't mean I'm wrong though.


(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/25/2008 4:19:42 PM   
TreasureKY


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Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulnz

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

PaulNZ, isn’t that being presumptuous to say Treasure is going to end up in an unhappy relationship


It is presumptuous, you're right, doesn't mean I'm wrong though.


But considering that your presumptions are based very little real knowledge of our relationship, they stand a better than average chance of being wrong.

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 8/25/2008 4:23:03 PM >

(in reply to Paulnz)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/25/2008 9:59:41 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		R. has a frying pan that I am not allowed to wash.  I certainly am not enamored with doing dishes, but it bothers me to leave that dirty pan on the stove! Even asking if he would show me how to clean it ………safely?.............correctly?......meets with a sharp ‘NO!” 
Analyzing my thoughts, I realized I saw that pan as a challenge and I had quite a struggle letting it go.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/26/2008 12:03:06 AM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		Treasure and Firm both come across as levelheaded people with brains. Therefore I would be astounded if financial provisions haven't been made to protect Treasure's future every bit as much as Firm's! Also, not everyone is so incredibly hung up on money as Paulnz seems to be. While they were probably valid questions to raise, making assumptions that these things have NOT been done and that their relationship is therefore doomed was making too big a leap I think!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/26/2008 12:16:30 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

R. has a frying pan that I am not allowed to wash.  I certainly am not enamored with doing dishes, but it bothers me to leave that dirty pan on the stove! Even asking if he would show me how to clean it ………safely?.............correctly?......meets with a sharp ‘NO!” 
Analyzing my thoughts, I realized I saw that pan as a challenge and I had quite a struggle letting it go.


Let me guess.  Salt rub and oil cure?

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/26/2008 12:38:10 AM   
Paulnz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay
Also, not everyone is so incredibly hung up on money as Paulnz seems to be.


The OP made repeated references to income and expenses. Addressing that directly was legitimate and not getting hung about money. If the OP doesn't want her finances discussed I suggest she not post on the subject.

Examples of financial references in the OP:-

professional career
earning a living
financial needs
business
burden
asset
financial contribution
employment
work a full-time position elsewhere

(in reply to MaamJay)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Roles in a different light... - 8/26/2008 12:52:16 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulnz

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay
Also, not everyone is so incredibly hung up on money as Paulnz seems to be.


The OP made repeated references to income and expenses. Addressing that directly was legitimate and not getting hung about money. If the OP doesn't want her finances discussed I suggest she not post on the subject.

Examples of financial references in the OP:-

professional career
earning a living
financial needs
business
burden
asset
financial contribution
employment
work a full-time position elsewhere


I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that these references constituted an open invitation to debate the durability of mine and Firm's relationship.  Nonetheless, you are free to do so if you please and while I appreciate your obvious concern with my financial status, my op was really about the roles and responsibilities that we internalize and those we apply to others.

As has been mentioned in this thread, women of my generation were most likely raised with the idea that home and family were our primary responsibility, yet we also grew up during a time when our roles were expanding out into the workforce.  For someone like myself, it can be both an advantage and disadvantage, and, as I point out in my op, it can create some confusion for the men who live with us. 

(in reply to Paulnz)
Profile   Post #: 37
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