Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA?

Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (Full Version)

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defiantbadgirl -> Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 8:46:52 PM)
McCain wants to continue giving big tax breaks to corporations that send jobs overseas. Obama wants to eliminate dependency on foreign oil and create new jobs in the US (definitely better than McCain). But neither of them is promising to end NAFTA. What's wrong with creating new jobs in addition to, not instead of, bringing the other jobs back? I keep hearing from people I know that NAFTA was a mistake, but we're beyond that now. Are they afraid it will start a world war or is there another reason? Why can't NAFTA be stopped?

Alumbrado -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 8:49:59 PM)
Why did the jobs go away in the first place?

defiantbadgirl -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 8:57:42 PM)
Because of NAFTA and the response of greedy corporations to NAFTA?

celticlord2112 -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 8:59:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl Because of NAFTA and the response of greedy corporations to NAFTA? Care to elaborate on that?

Alumbrado -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 9:08:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl Because of NAFTA and the response of greedy corporations to NAFTA? Mmmmm.. the jobs started going away in the 70s...by the mid 80s there were no color TVs being made in the USA for example... NAFTA was ratified and signed in final form in the early 90s. Greed is correct tho...

MrrPete -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 9:12:50 PM)
Those that harp about jobs going overseas don't want you to know about the jobs coming here. Several foreign auto companies have plants here just for an example. They pay a lot more than any customer service call center in India http://www.ofii.org/insourcing/insourcing_study.pdf

MissSCD -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 9:19:22 PM)
*Nafta was created under President Clinton. It was one of his worse decisions as President.* *I am not sre what Obama will do, but at least he will do something.* *The way we are living now is a disgrace to what our forefathers fought for in the Revolutionary War.* *Independence.* *Regards, MissSCD*

Alumbrado -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 9:22:45 PM)
It isn't just the loss of positions, it is the overall loss. When an entire factory or industry is gone, and thousands upon thousands of people who were making decent money as skilled workers are now making a little above minimum wage in the service industry, a handful of jobs at the new Toyota plant in another state isn't a cure-all.

cyberdude611 -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 9:36:49 PM)
The Democrats cannot attack NAFTA. Why? Because their hand is also in the cookie jar. The Democrats share blame for it. Sure....the first Bush negotiated it. But it was a Democratic Senate that approved the deal (by 1 vote by the way). And President Clinton signed it. So they can't pin NAFTA on Republicans. The Democrats could have killed it at any time. Democrats also benefit from special interests who have gained a lot of money though NAFTA.

MercTech -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 9:38:32 PM)
I see the biggest handicap to the foreign trade deficit the fact that the United States is an arrogant isolationist in matters of manufacture. Our laws and standards refuse to even attempt ISO compliance (International Standards Organization). The metric system has been, by congressional act, the official measurement system for the country since 1789. But, we continue to make equipment that requires special tools to work on in any other country. The idea of a free trade corridor including Mexico, the United States, and Canada looks really good. Except, you can't give away American made goods to an ISO country unless you do extensive rework to make them up to intenational safety standards. ISO standards are neither better nor worse than ANSI standards. But, 90% of the world uses ISO standards and only the U.S.A. is ANSI. Makes for big problems in trade and moving manufacturing out of the country where you can legally build to ISO standards and sell to the world makes more sense. I see NAFTA, and its failure to allieviate the trade deficit, as a symptom of the problem and not a problem in itself. Stefan

Alumbrado -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 9:45:05 PM)
quote: moving manufacturing out of the country where you can legally build to ISO standards and sell to the world makes more sense. Perhaps... but standardization alone doesn't explain why the US factories were running 3 shifts plus OT to try to meet the demand for US manufactured goods for so long, and why it was the US corporations who decided to kill off the US based industries.

DarkSteven -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 9:56:31 PM)
MercTech, I fail to follow you. I first worked in ISO compliance in the US in 1994 (actually the nuclear industry's version of it called NQA-1). The American Society for Quality (ASQ) has wholeheartedly endorsed it and promoted it. Each nation has its own standards. more or less. Japan does, China does, etc. Europe tends to follow TUV IIRC. Manufacturing companies that export consider the requirement of complying with multiple countries' standards to be a cost of doing business. Your post implies that we cannot export to foreign countrues because we refuse to manufacture to their standards, and that's why offshoring occurs. We actually DO export - a LOT. Just for fun, flip over a Dell laptop and see all the different compliance stickers, each for a different country. As far as I know, they're still US-made. There is only one reason that jobs are getting offshored. It's a lot cheaper. So much so that companies are willing to deal with communication and cultural issues, quality issues, and longer and more expensive transportation.

SilverWulf -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 9:56:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech I see the biggest handicap to the foreign trade deficit the fact that the United States is an arrogant isolationist in matters of manufacture. Our laws and standards refuse to even attempt ISO compliance (International Standards Organization). The metric system has been, by congressional act, the official measurement system for the country since 1789. But, we continue to make equipment that requires special tools to work on in any other country. The idea of a free trade corridor including Mexico, the United States, and Canada looks really good. Except, you can't give away American made goods to an ISO country unless you do extensive rework to make them up to intenational safety standards. ISO standards are neither better nor worse than ANSI standards. But, 90% of the world uses ISO standards and only the U.S.A. is ANSI. Makes for big problems in trade and moving manufacturing out of the country where you can legally build to ISO standards and sell to the world makes more sense. I see NAFTA, and its failure to allieviate the trade deficit, as a symptom of the problem and not a problem in itself. Stefan ISO vs ANSI has little or nothing to do with it. The majority of manufacturing uses CNC processes and it's as simple as clicking one box or the other when choosing a measureing system for the machine to work in. The vast majority of manufacturers are ISO certified. Have you tried to work on an american made piece of equipment lately? Most, if not all, of the fasteners, tubing, fittings, etc... are metric. Caterpillar hasn't had a problem exporting machines, they are used all over the world. The major problem with US manufacturing is the unions. They drive prices up so severely that the companies can't compete on price.

Alumbrado -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 10:06:27 PM)
Unions were a significant part of the problem but only a part.... greed resides other places as well....

SilverWulf -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 10:09:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Unions were a significant part of the problem but only a part.... greed resides other places as well.... Of course, and not all greed is bad. Greed helps create companies, which provide the jobs in the first place.

blacksword404 -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 10:51:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: moving manufacturing out of the country where you can legally build to ISO standards and sell to the world makes more sense. Perhaps... but standardization alone doesn't explain why the US factories were running 3 shifts plus OT to try to meet the demand for US manufactured goods for so long, and why it was the US corporations who decided to kill off the US based industries. People in china work cheaper. And as long as they tell us it will lower the cost of goods and we believe them i think it will continue. I have yet to see them drop the price.

blacksword404 -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 11:00:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SilverWulf quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Unions were a significant part of the problem but only a part.... greed resides other places as well.... Of course, and not all greed is bad. Greed helps create companies, which provide the jobs in the first place. It's in a companies interest to make as much as possible. In the case of a corporation the CEO is bound by law to increase profits. So they use any loophole they can to do that. Problem is government is lax on enforcement of the law and looking out for the public interest. The FDA takes money from the drug companies they are supposed to regulate.

Leatherist -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/27/2008 11:11:04 PM)
Fifty percent of the cost of US retail goods is made up of state, federal and local taxation. There are taxes on manufacturing and labor at every level of the chain, from materials creation to manufacturing, transportation, wholesaling, retailing etc....... The jobs didn't go away because of NAFTA-they went away due to a wasteful government system that penalizes success-and treats business as a cash cow to feed upon. They went away because it is the only way to escape the burden of that wasteful system, and have any chance at being competitive in a global market with governments that are more sensible to the practicalities of doing business..

meatcleaver -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/28/2008 1:57:42 AM)
The problem isn't NAFTA, its capitalism and since America believes in capitalism, I'm wondering what the problem is. It's just so much cheaper for companies to use cheap labour in countries where people are dirt poor, scratching a living and there are no safety nets for the out of work. Why pay for a so called skilled worker when most manufacturing doesn't require skilled workers, they require skills that at their most complex, can be learnt within a week or two. Hell, companies can even get children to work for them but of course they will never admit to that. It is necessary in capitalism for companies to act in a psychopathic way, playing one set of people off against another set of people. It is just the turn of workers in the developed world to be the losers while the dirt poor in the underdeveloped world are exploited. That's capitalism, you believe in it or you don't but don't complain when a system as ruthless capitalism turns round and bites you, you should know it would in the end, you have to prepare for the bad times in the good tim es.

defiantbadgirl -> RE: Why the lack of interest in eliminating NAFTA? (8/28/2008 2:34:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 The Democrats cannot attack NAFTA. Why? Because their hand is also in the cookie jar. The Democrats share blame for it. Sure....the first Bush negotiated it. But it was a Democratic Senate that approved the deal (by 1 vote by the way). And President Clinton signed it. I know both parties had a part in NAFTA, but it was a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. Why not admit the mistake and get rid of NAFTA? The fact that both parties were responsible doesn't stop NAFTA from being eliminated now.

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