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Changes in Politics - 8/30/2008 5:34:17 PM   
celticlord2112


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Changes in Politics

Sowell makes an excellent point about "change."

quote:

We don't need Barack Obama to create "change." Things change in politics, in the economy, and elsewhere in American society, without waiting for a political messiah to lead us into the promised land.


For all the talk about people wanting "change", a simple question:

What are you waiting for?


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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/30/2008 5:40:04 PM   
Jeffff


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I am waiting for transparency. I am waiting for honesty. I am waiting for intelligent thought.

I am waiting for a reasoned foreign policy. I am waiting for a government that not only talks the talk, but walks the walk

I  expect to be disappointed. once again

Jeff

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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/30/2008 6:12:32 PM   
Celeres


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Sure there's "change". There's Guantanamo Bay being used for "many" reasons. "Change" as making the Patriot Act permanent. "Change" as paying more for rent, utilities, gas, food while making the same. Sure there's change everyday that's out of our control. We don't need a man like Barack Obama to change. Problem is, without the messiah, misguided and misled politicians make changes from bad to worse for most people.

Someone just the other day tried to tell me that his family is struggling to make ends meet. His parents and his 1 younger sibling is finding life to be really hard, making 1.5 million dollars a year. What about families making the minimum wage? Perhaps it's a sad realization of life to see that my friend's family can't go on the annual cruise to Europe this year. Or is it sad to think that families across America with two working parents making the minimum wage, has never even stepped foot on a cruise before?

The argument should not be about tax-plans, or political messiahs/devils, or even about how much income a family makes. It should be about "living within your means" and what about the family that scrapes by on minimum wage? They are trying their best, living within their means, rice, soup and bread. Maybe steak once a year for a special occasion? But the government, instead of leaving things be, is offering another tax hike. Higher tariffs or "luxury" taxes. Anyone ask why California "oil" is so expensive? There is a 18.4 cent tax to the federal government. 18 cents per gallon tax, on top of a 6% sales tax which is in addition to a 1.25% county and local sales taxes. All in all, at the end of the day, Californians pay 64 cents "tax" per gallon of unleaded fuel. Sucks for diesel owners too, since they pay 72 cents "tax" per gallon in California.

http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/upload/January_2008_gasoline_and_diesel_summary_pages-2.pdf

Just a bit of food for thought. Much of that tax is supposed to be spent on infrastructure and roads. Maybe it's just me but a lot of the roads I drive on in the Bay Area look pretty bad. =)

So, it's true we don't need a political messiah. Ask working-class America what changed these last 2 decades. Life is supposed to be hard. Hard work makes water taste just that much sweeter. But I don't think this current economy we are living in is helping anyone except putting extra steaks and prime rib into the freezers of rich America.

Between Obama and a man who believes 5-million dollar income is "middle class," my choice is rather clear.

--Celeres

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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/30/2008 6:43:41 PM   
Aneirin


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When the word change is the word of a politician, we should all best beware for the word , ' change ' , has infinite variation on meaning.

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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/30/2008 7:22:16 PM   
celticlord2112


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But why are people just waiting for "change"?

Is there nothing that can be done here and now to change the world for the better?  Are people powerless to make alterations in their lives, in their communities, in the world, without a blessing from government on high?

Why are people waiting for Obama to "change" things? 


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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/30/2008 7:36:08 PM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

But why are people just waiting for "change"?

Is there nothing that can be done here and now to change the world for the better?  Are people powerless to make alterations in their lives, in their communities, in the world, without a blessing from government on high?

Why are people waiting for Obama to "change" things? 




Maybe because we all have been brainwashed into believing those we vote into power are the only ones capable of doing the right thing as every individual wants.


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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/30/2008 7:37:35 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:


Maybe because we all have been brainwashed into believing those we vote into power are the only ones capable of doing the right thing as every individual wants.

I sincerely hope you are wrong......


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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/30/2008 8:53:02 PM   
Celeres


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

But why are people just waiting for "change"?

Is there nothing that can be done here and now to change the world for the better?  Are people powerless to make alterations in their lives, in their communities, in the world, without a blessing from government on high?

Why are people waiting for Obama to "change" things? 



Hah, I have the same feelings when Napoleon Dynamite came out. "Everyone" was praising the film about how "true" it was, and how we shouldn't ignore "different" people around us. Fact of the matter is, most people who are now coming to that realization, chances are in high school, they were the ones leading the jokes and the harassment.

Doesn't matter what Obama or McCain says, come November 4th, this nation will have spoken and a change is inevitable. People often wait for change because they are afraid of it. Change is inevitable but that seems better than creating the change themselves. Less risk. Shakespeare called it "the Undiscovered Country." Obama actually, (for whatever reason) reminds me of this poster I saw in my 9th grade english class: "stand up for what's right, even if you stand alone." I have no idea why but that image just popped into my head. Perhaps it's subliminal? Haha

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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/30/2008 9:03:11 PM   
celticlord2112


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So what are you standing up for, alone or otherwise?

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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/30/2008 10:49:13 PM   
igor2003


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

But why are people just waiting for "change"?

Is there nothing that can be done here and now to change the world for the better?  Are people powerless to make alterations in their lives, in their communities, in the world, without a blessing from government on high?

Why are people waiting for Obama to "change" things? 



People aren't "just waiting" for change.  People make changes in their lives every day.  Many people of all ages are going back to school to make changes in their lives.  They move from large houses to small houses as their children leave home.  They move from small houses to big houses when they are lucky enough for their income to allow it.  They decide to have kids.  They decide to have pets.  They decide to change jobs.  They decide to move to other areas of the country.  These are just a few of the changes that they make in their private lives.

They vote on local levels to make changes they don't like in their local governments.  They go to town meetings, and they start or sign petitions to have changes made in various areas.  Doing things as simple as calling in about a drunk driver or a speeder is an attempt to make changes on a local level.  Many people do volunteer work to make changes in their local community. 

And people do things to make changes on a national level as well.  They write to their senators and representatives, and even their president to try to sway this bill or that bill.   But to have an actual hand in making changes at a national level can normally only be done by voting in elections.  And that is where we are now.  If you don't like the policies of the incumbant then you vote for their opponent.  I'm not a Democrat.  I'm not a Republican.  There are some things...maybe even MANY things...that I don't like about what the Democrats have to offer.  But I know there is almost nothing that has been done or accomplished by the GOP in the last 8 years that I like or approve of, and I don't see McCain making many, if any changes to the course that has been set by Bush.  Therefore, I will be using my vote to try to make a change in the direction the country is headed by voting for someone that has different goals and ideals than the incumbant party. 

One thing is for certain, if we want to see change at the national level, then we can't just leave things the way they are by electing someone that voted for Bush policies more than 90% of the time.

I sincerely do not like the party system that we have in place today.  You can vote for a Republican, or you can vote for a Democrat (or any other party), but in either case their first concern is for the well-being of their party, and their second concern is toward the large contributers that made their campain possible.  THAT is where the real change needs to be made...returning the government to SERVING the people, as it was intended, rather than RULING them.

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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/30/2008 11:31:47 PM   
DomKen


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The author tries to claim the New Deal extended the Great Depression. That is factually incorrect. The crash occured in 1929 and FDR didn't take office until 1933. That was already an unusually lengthy and severe depression. Countries that stuck with standard practice recovered even more slowly than the US. So an author who get such basic facts of history wrong should be considered in any way reliable why?

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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/30/2008 11:52:04 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The author tries to claim the New Deal extended the Great Depression. That is factually incorrect. The crash occured in 1929 and FDR didn't take office until 1933. That was already an unusually lengthy and severe depression. Countries that stuck with standard practice recovered even more slowly than the US. So an author who get such basic facts of history wrong should be considered in any way reliable why?

Sowell is correct. 

UCLA Economists Harold Cole and Lee Ohanian conducted a study in 2004 that indicates FDR's policies prolonged the Depression by as much as 7 years:
quote:

After scrutinizing Roosevelt's record for four years, Harold L. Cole and Lee E. Ohanian conclude in a new study that New Deal policies signed into law 71 years ago thwarted economic recovery for seven long years.



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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/31/2008 12:05:12 AM   
Celeres


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

So what are you standing up for, alone or otherwise?


The little guy. Against bullies. But that's on a smaller, day-to-day scale. Nothing to affect hundreds or thousands of people. Just "looking out for me and mine" right now, to quote one of my favorite Sci-Fi characters. As for the rest, "either you're part of the solution, or you're part of the problem, or you're just part of the scenery." I'd say I qualify as the third at this moment in my life.

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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/31/2008 6:45:50 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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One change I'd like to see is the banning of professional lobbyists.

Another I'd like to see is bringing home our troops from all over the world, and having a defensive military only, and in conjunction, use soldiers for all jobs in the military, rather than contractors who cost twice what the soldiers would.

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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/31/2008 7:17:36 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

But why are people just waiting for "change"?

Is there nothing that can be done here and now to change the world for the better?  Are people powerless to make alterations in their lives, in their communities, in the world, without a blessing from government on high?

Why are people waiting for Obama to "change" things? 




Maybe because we all have been brainwashed into believing those we vote into power are the only ones capable of doing the right thing as every individual wants.



The emphasis is my own.  It is, however, a rather telling (and more than somewhat interesting) choice of word to describe the general public.  Unfortunately, it's also the word I would have chosen to use to answer the question posed by CL in the OP.
 
Over the past 30 to 50 years, we have bred for Complacency, Stupidity, and the ability to get along with the mouth shut.  We seem to have forgotten the lesson that was taught (often at the end of Fists) during the 60s - Question Authority.  We quit questioning, we quit expecting - and This (Now) is where it got us.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

So what are you standing up for, alone or otherwise?

 
On the local level: repeal of unconstitutional laws, overhaul of the state income tax laws to a more uniform (and less loophole bound) system, better animal welfare, sustainable ag, and better options for going Green.

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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/31/2008 7:50:25 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The author tries to claim the New Deal extended the Great Depression. That is factually incorrect. The crash occured in 1929 and FDR didn't take office until 1933. That was already an unusually lengthy and severe depression. Countries that stuck with standard practice recovered even more slowly than the US. So an author who get such basic facts of history wrong should be considered in any way reliable why?

Sowell is correct. 

UCLA Economists Harold Cole and Lee Ohanian conducted a study in 2004 that indicates FDR's policies prolonged the Depression by as much as 7 years:
quote:

After scrutinizing Roosevelt's record for four years, Harold L. Cole and Lee E. Ohanian conclude in a new study that New Deal policies signed into law 71 years ago thwarted economic recovery for seven long years.



UCLA was a nice distraction. It made finding the actual paper, by a pair of Mineapolis Federal Reserve economists, take a bit longer. They claim that the recovery should have occured in 1936. Now strangely the countries in the rest of the developed world that followed the principles that they claim would have done this didn't recover in 1936. As a matter of fact the only nation that had decent growth figures by 1936 was Germany which was building a huge military using a socialist economic model.

An interesting claim that uses a rather odd premise, the 1921 recession ( a very minor and short duration recession) is somehow applicable as a comparison to the 1929 crash and aftermath. However the authors seem to believe monopoly is a good thing. Which is patent rubbish so I think I'll take their conclusions as the pure speculation it is.

I know you guys hate FDR but try and actually study history and the actual facts of the matter.

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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/31/2008 9:43:30 AM   
celticlord2112


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It is true that historians credit FDR's New Deal with ending the Depression.  There is no such clear consensus among economists, however, and are rather evenly divided on the issue, with a significant body of research to support the contention that FDR and the New Deal were counterproductive.

Robert Higgs of the Independent Institute makes a similar argument

Jim Powell of the Cato Institute argues that FDR's New Deal harmed more than helped poor people.

Burton Folsom, economist and historian from Hillsdale College, stated in a 2004 speech that "the New Deal was an inevitable economic failure."  Most telling is the quote he includes from FDR's Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau: "We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. . . . We have never made good on our promises. . . . I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started. . . . And an enormous debt to boot!"

Lawrence Reed of the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, arguing that the notion of the New Deal ending the Depression is a myth, points out that a national poll by the American Institute of Public Opinion taken in 1939 reported Americans answered "yes" to the question "Do you think the attitude of the Roosevelt Administration towards business is delaying business recovery?"

Such are facts and history.



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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/31/2008 10:09:06 AM   
subexploring


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

It is true that historians credit FDR's New Deal with ending the Depression.  There is no such clear consensus among economists, however, and are rather evenly divided on the issue, with a significant body of research to support the contention that FDR and the New Deal were counterproductive.

Robert Higgs of the Independent Institute makes a similar argument

Jim Powell of the Cato Institute argues that FDR's New Deal harmed more than helped poor people.

Burton Folsom, economist and historian from Hillsdale College, stated in a 2004 speech that "the New Deal was an inevitable economic failure."  Most telling is the quote he includes from FDR's Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau: "We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. . . . We have never made good on our promises. . . . I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started. . . . And an enormous debt to boot!"

Lawrence Reed of the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, arguing that the notion of the New Deal ending the Depression is a myth, points out that a national poll by the American Institute of Public Opinion taken in 1939 reported Americans answered "yes" to the question "Do you think the attitude of the Roosevelt Administration towards business is delaying business recovery?"

Such are facts and history.




You're right that there is a lot of controversy among economists on the exact effects of the New Deal, especially the short-term ones. However, all the institutions you quoted -- the Independent Institute, Cato, Mackinac, and also Hillsdale College -- are ideological think-tank type institutions financed by the conservative movement, not unbiased sources.

A couple of things I would say --

--Roosevelt was elected in 1932, and strong economic growth and employment expansion began again in early 1933, right after his first programs were put in. If you want to talk "facts of history", you need to look at those -- look up U.S. GDP growth from 1928-1940 and you'll see the pattern I'm talking about.

However, the 1928-1932 contraction had been so severe that "catch-up" to pre-Depression employment levels did not occur until 1937. In addition, there was a second recession in 1937, which, while not nearly as severe as the Depression, caused the U.S. economy to slump again. A lot of the argument has to be about the causes of that second recession.

Many of the flaws in the New Deal were because Roosevelt was *not Keynesian enough* -- not willing to borrow large amounts of money and run a big Federal deficit. Even Roosevelt was still prisoner of the old conservative economic thinking that emphasized balanced budgets. WWII -- which featured much more borrowing and much more interference in the economy than the New Deal did -- broke the U.S. definitively out of the Depression era and was followed by unprecedented economic growth.

Finally, while some Roosevelt programs were failures or temporary stopgaps, a large number of New Deal programs -- notably TVA, Social Security, the SEC, the FDIC -- were massive and lasting successes that helped the U.S. economy for many decades to come. The New Deal structure of financial regulation served the economy very well until quite recently (the last decade), when financiers figured out how to route around it during the dot-com and mortgage bubbles. Rural electrification worked. And Social Security, contrary to false right-wing propaganda about a supposed "crisis", has been and continues to be a very successful program that has enormously reduced poverty among the elderly.

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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/31/2008 10:18:57 AM   
subexploring


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As an addendum to my last post, here are annual GDP percentage growth rates from 1930 (earliest year available) to 1940. They are available to anyone at the bea.gov web site (look at Table 1.1.1 under "Frequently requested NIPA tables", there is a tool that lets you readjust the years displayed:

1930: -8.6
1931: -6.4
1932: -13.2
1933: -1.3
1934: +10.8
1935: +8.9
1936: +13.0
1937: +5.1
1938: -3.4
1939: +8.1
1940: +8.8

This simple data shows the source of Roosevelt's popularity. He of course takes office in January, 1933, and recovery begins almost immediately, with the decline stopping in 1933 and strong growth beginning in 1934. You get the 1938 recession, but it is small compared to the Depression.

These are the actual facts of history. Economists of course still debate their exact causes, but trust me, economists debate everything.


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RE: Changes in Politics - 8/31/2008 10:54:23 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

This simple data shows the source of Roosevelt's popularity. He of course takes office in January, 1933, and recovery begins almost immediately, with the decline stopping in 1933 and strong growth beginning in 1934. You get the 1938 recession, but it is small compared to the Depression.

post hoc ergo propter hoc: "after this, therefore because of this".

As you point out, recovery begins "immediately".  Given the lag between government enacting policy and government implementing policy, this suggests that recovery was happening even before FDR.  Thus the debate is over the extent to which the New Deal helped or hindered that recovery.

The argument of many economists (and even FDR's own Treasury Secretary) is that the New Deal contributed less to the recovery than historians recount, and in many cases was counterproductive, thereby exacerbating and extending the period of recovery.

As a result, FDR and the New Deal is a dangerous precedent on which to formulate future economic policy for future presidential administrations.

Keep in mind that the economy in 1933 had contracted significantly from 1929, with extreme dislocations not just in the US but around the world.  The economy of the United States for the past 7 years has been expanding, not contracting.  If the economic studies and analyses I reference are even partially correct, a re-enactment of the New Deal today (and many argue rather persuasively that Obama's platform is exactly that), would have disastrous impact on the economy, and we would see reductions in GDP rather than increases.


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