Hubris, Humility, and Human Error

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softness -> Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 8:58:30 AM)
Hubris Greek. hybris "wanton violence, insolence, outrage," originally "presumption toward the gods," of unknown origin. Excessive pride or self-confidence; arrogance. Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance: Humilty A disposition to be humble, a lack of false pride. The quality or condition of being humble; modest opinion or estimate of one's own importance, rank, etc. Pride A becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem. sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect. Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride. In whatever walk of life we tread, we balance on the knife edge of pride. On one side, humility and on the other, hubris. The Ancient Greeks (and for that read mostly the 5th Century BC Athenians) believed that their Gods would destroy them for Hubris, because it was a mortal reaching too far and seeking to become god-like. Read Oedipus Tyrannous, study it, and you can almost feel the shiver of fear the audience would have felt as Oedipus matches his own knowledge to the power of Fate. Watch his destruction, and feel the catharsis as balance is brutally restored. What they attributed to divine destruction, I attribute to human error. Simply put, we all fuck up. Every. Single. Last. One. Of. Us. One of the greatest and most often trod paths to hubris, is not admitting the capacity for human error, and in not admitting our capacity for it, we leave ourselves open to be destroyed by it. The reason I post this here is that recently pride, humility, and hubris have been high impacting factors in my life. I have the humility to admit that I made a massive and resounding error in judgement about myself, and I have the humility to admit that I believed I could be something that I will actually never be. I caught myself before that poor judgement became hubris. The One True Way is an unhappy condition of any lifestyle. There is One True Catholic Way, One True American Way, One True Middle Class English Way To Have Afternoon Tea etc etc etc. Under any intelligent examination these fall apart … put 100 English Afternoon Tea drinkers together and you will 50 different ways of doing it – 40 of them perfectly effective, 7 ineffective (but everyone too polite to say so), 3 of them plain barmy 2 of which are shunned and 1 of which is lionised. I have always felt uncomfortable with One True Ways in BDSM, One True Way for me and mine is one thing, for everyone, no thank-you very much. OTWs are situations of pure hubris, and recently I watched my own relationship fall apart because having such a fixed determined view of how things should be in our OTW meant I took my eye off the ball marked “human error” until I almost tripped over on it. Dominants – or what you will Given that you not only have responsibility for yourself, but for another (or others) how do you ensure that your pride does not become hubris? How prepared are you to admit to being wrong? Do you find it harder to admit you are wrong to your submissive because of the power exchange? What place does your pride have in your relationship? Are you prepared to sacrifice it if needs be? What place does your submissive’s pride have, if any, in your relationship? Do you require the sacrifice of their pride because of their submissiveness? How do you react to being told that you are wrong by your submissive? Does your pride allow you examine this, or do your defences rise in attack? How do you treat/work with your submissive when their pride has been hurt? Is it different when you are the one who hurt it? How do you behave if your pride has been hurt by your submissive? (tricky one to answer truthfully that) Submissives – or what you will How do you balance your pride and your submission? How easy to you find it to admit that you are wrong, and that errors in judgement are your own? What place is your pride given in the relationship? Is that maintained? Or do you have to maintain it yourself? What means, if any, are you given to communicate to your Dominant that you think they are wrong? Are you allowed to even make that judgement? How do you behave when your pride has been hurt generally? … and by your Dominant? How does your Dominant behave when you have hurt theirs?

Kalista07 -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 9:19:19 AM)
Softness, i wish You lived closer so i could give You a great big hug. This is actually a topic that He and i have spent a great deal of time talking about. Here are my answers to Your questions:\ Submissives How do you balance your pride and your submission? That's an interesting question. i'm not sure i ever really experience pride. i'm not sure if this will make any sense or not, but right before i moved here with Him i was seeing a male therapist who told me he thought i needed to work on having less humility. i was shocked and offended and i called Him to tell Him and He agreed. (thinking inside my head WTF??!! How is it possible to have too much genuine humility) How easy to you find it to admit that you are wrong, and that errors in judgement are your own? Honestly, i don't find it too difficult. Perhaps it's because i'm ruled by guilt, or maybe it's just that i don't veiw admitting my responsibility as being a negative thing, or maybe it's just because i find being truthful and honest to be the way to have an honest relationship. What place is your pride given in the relationship? Is that maintained? Or do you have to maintain it yourself? What means, if any, are you given to communicate to your Dominant that you think they are wrong? Are you allowed to even make that judgement? i'm expected to communicate with Him honestly, openly, and without attitude or judgement. i'm encouraged to share with Him if i think He is wrong, it doesn't mean it will change it, but my experience is it's generally all about the way i approach the situation. He knows He's human and that He'll make mistakes, and my responsibility is to simply approach it as humbly and honestly as i am capable of. How do you behave when your pride has been hurt generally? … and by your Dominant? Generally when my pride has been hurt by Him i tend to shut down. i tend to retreat back into myself. While i am able to recognize that it's neither productive or healthy, it's just my natural response. After a few minutes (or a bunch of minutes) of me trying to seperate myself from Him, one or both of us will probably initiate talking. At which point i must own up to the responsibility i have for allowing my pride to be hurt. How does your Dominant behave when you have hurt theirs? Honestly, i'm not sure. i've seen the look in His eyes when i've hurt His feelings before and there's a part of me that feels smashed beyond all belief. But, i don't know that i've ever experienced hurting his pride. i guess i'll need to ask Him. Again, i don't know that i really struggle with pride. Am i a good person? Yes. Am i good at what i do for a living? yes. Do i have things i can and should be 'proud' of? Sure, but again i don't know that i have any real relationship with prid i'm sorry i couldn't be of more help. i have virtually no idea if this even makes any sense. Kali

softness -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 9:23:52 AM)
It made perfect sense ... open, honest and frank ... thank you very much

Kalista07 -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 9:30:09 AM)
Softness, i hope You don't mind but i just realized a recent situation we went through that might be of value for this discussion. Recently, i was writing a 'story' for Him. You know the kind...Anyway, through out it i had Him degrading me (something He enjoys doing greatly) and at one point in the story He had called me a 'fat cow'. i had a serious reason for writing that in there. i wanted Him to know that i have no limits with Him. There's no area i don't trust Him to go into. Unfortunately, that was not the message i sent to Him though. i woke up as He was walking out of the bedroom and i remember thinking to myself, "Why does He look so weird?" He was crying. Recently, he and i had been struggling with my 'negative, self degrading comments'. And apparently when i wrote that He heard Himself saying it to me and it was in such a negative, hate filled way that it broke His heart. i felt like the world's biggest piece of shit. It occured to me at that point that everytime i say something negative about myself, i am also talking negatively about Him and His choices. Before then i swear to God, it never occured to me that by talking negatively about myself i am actually degrading Him and His choice of women. Since then i've made a conscious effort to stop that kind of behavior and discussion. Kali

catize -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 9:39:07 AM)
quote: Submissives – or what you will How do you balance your pride and your submission? How easy to you find it to admit that you are wrong, and that errors in judgement are your own? What place is your pride given in the relationship? Is that maintained? Or do you have to maintain it yourself? What means, if any, are you given to communicate to your Dominant that you think they are wrong? Are you allowed to even make that judgement? How do you behave when your pride has been hurt generally? … and by your Dominant? How does your Dominant behave when you have hurt theirs? My humility is based on the fact that I have ceded authority to the dominant(s) in my life. But one can feel pride at the same time; I take pride in a job well done; I take pride in an honest effort even if I didn’t quite reach the goal. I have always owned up to my mistakes in all aspects of my life: to deny responsibility and blame another is counter productive to learning and growth. I do not rely on another to help me feel proud---I can figure out for myself that what I have done is good work, I know what effort I have put in. It is wonderful to hear “I am proud of you” but that isn’t validation necessarily, it is his way of letting me know that he appreciates what I have accomplished. Yes, I am not only allowed but expected to tell him when he is wrong. Neither one of my D’s believe themselves to be infallible. Laughing at myself is the best way for me to get over myself. It is rare that my pride is hurt from my dominants but it has happened. About a year ago, R. did something that hurt my pride. It took me awhile to come to terms with that. The first step was realizing that part of it was, as MasterFire often says, ‘my stuff”. It took a bit of courage but I called him one night and we discussed it. He was willing to accept his part in it as well---and then it was done and over. Both of us came through it with our pride intact. If I have ever hurt one of them that way they have not mentioned it; I believe they would tell me and we would discuss it.

Missokyst -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 9:52:39 AM)
I don't know whether this qualifies, but I stop myself before absolute success. For instance, I used to be a self supporting artist. When people began asking for commissions I was happy for the work. As I became more well known.. I ended my career. If I would go back to school and take 13 units of classes, I would have a degree in 5 majors. I get to a certain point and then switch gears. I make dolls.. I stopped doing it. I make jewelry.. I stopped doing it. I can never seem to push myself into complete success in anything. I feel like a rug maker who deliberately weaves in a mistake so as not to appear too skilled. Oddly enough I can succeed at most things if I have a hand at my back. It is only on my own that I will cut the legs from under me in fear. Relationship-wise I hate it when I recognize I am wrong. It is hard to admit and I fight it, but lately.. it just feels right to be wrong, or less than I think I am. I don't know why that is. When I used to see a mistake of his, I would point it out as a suggestion that it might be better another way. It wasn't until the end that I could outright point out errors on his part. When my pride is hurt, I hide. Kyst

RCdc -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 10:04:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: softness Submissives – or what you will How do you balance your pride and your submission? I don't. I embrace both and maintain them, exude them. I never waste them. quote: How easy to you find it to admit that you are wrong, and that errors in judgement are your own? Easy enough. But then I always begin with the understanding that the possibility of error is there. quote: What place is your pride given in the relationship? Is that maintained? Or do you have to maintain it yourself? It is shared and maintained by Master and myself. quote: What means, if any, are you given to communicate to your Dominant that you think they are wrong? Are you allowed to even make that judgement? I am not allowed to make the judgement for him. I am expected to voice my opinion with reasons as to why. quote: How do you behave when your pride has been hurt generally? … and by your Dominant? I can honestly say, it never has been. quote: How does your Dominant behave when you have hurt theirs? Because of the way we communicate, this has never been an issue. I have never seen Darcys pride take a fall. the.dark.

Stusmobile -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 10:14:53 AM)
quote: Dominants – or what you will Given that you not only have responsibility for yourself, but for another (or others) how do you ensure that your pride does not become hubris? I screw up, I make mistakes, I misjudge situations .... my reaction no matter if it be in my personal or work life is the same, I hold my hands up, admit to the mistake and try to learn why it happened. Knowledge and acceptance of a mistake means I'm unlikely (although not always) to make the same mistake again. If she makes a mistake we'll discuss the reasons, was it too much to ask, a lack of knowledge, too many things going on at once or what ... and from there we'll try to change things so that she doesn't get put in the same situation again. How prepared are you to admit to being wrong? Do you find it harder to admit you are wrong to your submissive because of the power exchange? Not in the least and part of her responsibility to me, herself and our relationship is to stop me from making an ass of myself when I'm heading down screw up road. What place does your pride have in your relationship? Are you prepared to sacrifice it if needs be? I am proud of who I am, what I am and where I come from, those things are ever present as they are an intrinsic part of me. I am proud of her, her brains, her beauty, her will power and her achievements, again those are ever present and encompass my feelings for her. The pride in the rest of our lives is ours, it's quiet, unobtrusive and understated ... but if push came to shove and that pride was hurting us, others close to us or our relationship, it'd certainly be poked, prodded and examined clinically. What place does your submissive’s pride have, if any, in your relationship? Do you require the sacrifice of their pride because of their submissiveness? The pride she has in herself, her demeanour and attitude is hers, she doesn't have to release it to be submissive. She can carry herself and the knowledge of who she is, what she is and what that means and not bow to anyone if she so chooses. Her pride has not been a problem but I can forsee a time when she will need as much of a reminder as I do that being over proud is not acceptable, how that gets cured will depend on the future. How do you react to being told that you are wrong by your submissive? Does your pride allow you examine this, or do your defences rise in attack? It depends on how and why I get told I'm wrong. When it comes to her proffessional life I bow to her superior knowledge without too much of a fight (unless it comes to myself in which case "do as I say not as I do" is the rule). If its a matter of perspective then we can spend hours discussing things rationally and without rancour .. and at the end of the day if nobody is right we can agree to disagree. A blatant attack from her would make the defences rise and would probably descend into a verbal fight where ultimately she got told to "sit down, shut up and deal with it, it's my decision". The verbal fighting would end and I'd take the responsibility for any future fall out from a bad choice. How do you treat/work with your submissive when their pride has been hurt? Is it different when you are the one who hurt it? It depends on how her pride had been hurt, from my mistake then it would be apologies, hugs and reassurance. From her mistakes there would be still be hugs, and some questions, followed by reassurance and a choice made on how to avoid the pitfalls in the future. How do you behave if your pride has been hurt by your submissive? (tricky one to answer truthfully that) Initially very quietly, I tend to look at what was said, done or inferred and internalise it for a while. That might take a few minutes or even a day or two depending on how I felt about things, how my head is doing generally and just how day to day life has been. After I've examined why my pride or I have been hurt then I'll formulate a response, a comment, a question and begin to explore the feeling with her, about what was said and done. Most times it's been a missed nuance, some body language that slipped by and has been until now a genuine mistake ..... and accepted as such. If in the future it turns out to be something else then we'll need to learn what caused it and why and then try to deal with it.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 10:48:01 AM)
quote: Given that you not only have responsibility for yourself, but for another (or others) how do you ensure that your pride does not become hubris? Self awareness, and the reality of the world always ready to knock you down on its own. Also, subs have just as much responsibility for themselves and others. quote: How prepared are you to admit to being wrong? Do you find it harder to admit you are wrong to your submissive because of the power exchange? It's not a power exchange. I'm not well prepared to admit I'm wrong because it really doesn't happen too often. But it certainly does happen and when it's clear and obvious, I do immediately recognize it. quote: What place does your pride have in your relationship? Are you prepared to sacrifice it if needs be? Pride to me is a result of doing things well. I'm prepared to not be proud of stuff I suck at, yes. quote: What place does your submissive’s pride have, if any, in your relationship? Do you require the sacrifice of their pride because of their submissiveness? No. quote: How do you react to being told that you are wrong by your submissive? Does your pride allow you examine this, or do your defences rise in attack? With my partner, I have MORE pride in him because I know just how difficult it is for him to do that. quote: How do you treat/work with your submissive when their pride has been hurt? Is it different when you are the one who hurt it? I don't think submission has much to do with this, people get their pride hurt, they lick their wounds and move on. quote: How do you behave if your pride has been hurt by your submissive? (tricky one to answer truthfully that) Is that really tricky? Only if you let your pride and ego get in the way :) I don't think domination has much to do with this, people get their pride hurt, they lick their wounds and move on. quote: How do you balance your pride and your submission? Easily? quote: How easy to you find it to admit that you are wrong, and that errors in judgement are your own? See above. quote: What place is your pride given in the relationship? Is that maintained? Or do you have to maintain it yourself? Ds tends to be irrelevant. If I do things well, I'm proud, if I don't, I'm not. quote: What means, if any, are you given to communicate to your Dominant that you think they are wrong? Are you allowed to even make that judgement? Any and all means, preferably the mature direct ones. Telling someone they aren't allowed to make a judgement like that is like telling someone they aren't allowed to produce serotonin. The issue is whether they are allowed to VOICE that judgement. quote: How do you behave when your pride has been hurt generally? … and by your Dominant? See above. quote: How does your Dominant behave when you have hurt theirs? See above.

stella41b -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 10:57:18 AM)
The one thing in life I have never wanted, and in fact I do all I can to avoid is permanence. There is good and bad in everything in life and while there is commitment and stability in permanence there is also attachment and restriction, it brings limitations. Had I sought permanence in my life I would not be here to write this response. I am Bohemian, very much transient, stable in my instability, consistent in my inconsistency, but yet I can commit, I can be loyal, steadfast, and belong. I'm nothing other than an individual, a free spirit who serves and submits, but I am not attached to my submission, for I can also lead, inspire and direct, and therefore let go. This is nothing other than the understanding of the power principle. What use is power if you cannot use it? I prefer to manage power, to acquire it, use it, and hand it over where necessary so that someone else can make use of it for our or the common good. Coming now to my submission there is pride in my submission, I am loyal, committed, able to focus, let go, serve and obey and do all of this with a certain amount of dignity and bearing. But I also have humility, I will accept responsibility, admit to my errors and shortcomings freely, openly, but I never seek to find fault or apportion the blame - I prefer to see the problem for what it is, the conflict, and the solution. Self-discipline and self-control are very important. However I am not just a submissive, I am me, an individual, and a dominant is also an individual, a person, and though I may not choose to exercise it through my own submission, there should always be I feel that opportunity to question in certain circumstances the dominant's decision if it is appropriate and for the common good of the relationship and dynamic. Question here doesn't mean judgment nor the statement 'you are wrong' but rather more the question 'are you sure?' But in the same way everything I think, say and do as a submissive, just as a person, is open to question and challenge. Balance is the key for this leads to harmony, peace and fulfillment on both sides, for what is not the dominant and the submissive but two halves of the whole unit which functions as its own entity? But finding and achieving this balance takes time and effort and is a challenge for many a couple because each changes and with that the relationship changes and therefore the pride in the relationship and in each other I feel should be tempered with the humility to accept the imperfections and to work together in harmony to find peace, happiness and fulfillment through growth and development. Best wishes s.

LadyPact -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 11:01:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: softness The reason I post this here is that recently pride, humility, and hubris have been high impacting factors in my life. I have the humility to admit that I made a massive and resounding error in judgement about myself, and I have the humility to admit that I believed I could be something that I will actually never be. I caught myself before that poor judgement became hubris. First, softness, let Me say that I am sorry that it has turned out this way for you. It is probably no consolation, but I can assure you that plenty of folks have had those times in their lives when they had to look around themselves and realize that who they are and where they are isn't quite right for them. There are times we can't be what we or someone else thinks we should be. As to your questions...... Given that you not only have responsibility for yourself, but for another (or others) how do you ensure that your pride does not become hubris? Actually, it's My personal belief that even Dominants need a touch of humility. I will never be so great that I forget there is always someone out there who has been living life longer, knows more than I do, or is more skilled than I am. How prepared are you to admit to being wrong? Quite prepared. It happens often. Do you find it harder to admit you are wrong to your submissive because of the power exchange? No, in fact if anything, I've learned that it's easier. In My way of thinking, I always have to be a person worthy of deserving that power. That means doing the best to My ability that My sub sees Me as being that person that My sub would want to submit to. No, that doesn't mean being perfect. It means I'm willing to work on becoming a better person. What place does your pride have in your relationship? There is nothing wrong with recognizing your strengths as well as your weaknesses. To Me, this means there is a place for pride just as there is for humility. There is no shame in being either Dominant or submissive. Are you prepared to sacrifice it if needs be? I can't imagine what the need would be. Could I, if it meant the betterment of Myself or one of the boys? Absolutely. What place does your submissive’s pride have, if any, in your relationship? If anything, it's a requirement for the relationship to exist. I insist that there is no shame in being a submissive male. I want them proud of who they are. I can't deal with someone who thinks less of themselves because they are submissive. Do you require the sacrifice of their pride because of their submissiveness? Absolutely not. How do you react to being told that you are wrong by your submissive? If I've been wrong, I apologize and start looking at what I need to do to correct Myself from being wrong again in the future. I'm not saying that to look good. It literally happened yesterday during a conversation. I was wrong. My sub told Me I was wrong. It's not something I want to be wrong about again, so I'm working on it. Does your pride allow you examine this, or do your defences rise in attack? Please see the above. How do you treat/work with your submissive when their pride has been hurt? I hope I do it with compassion and empathy. You'd probably have to ask one of them if that's accurate. Is it different when you are the one who hurt it? I'm not going to say I've never hurt them, but I don't think I've ever hurt their pride. How do you behave if your pride has been hurt by your submissive? (tricky one to answer truthfully that) I don't think they've done that. From some of the answers I've given above, I think you already know how I feel about pride and humility. If it were false pride, perhaps it could be hurt. That hasn't happened yet.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 11:08:26 AM)
Dominants – or what you will Given that you not only have responsibility for yourself, but for another (or others) how do you ensure that your pride does not become hubris? Years of practice, I guess. I have a very strong sense of responsibility and duty---and I have had to remind submissives in the past that I do NOT have superpowers. The knowledge that I can not only fail myself, but someone else keeps me grounded. How prepared are you to admit to being wrong? Do you find it harder to admit you are wrong to your submissive because of the power exchange? I am the queen of owning up. I am also paranoid about making mistakes, so I don't do it all that often, but the person in charge takes it for the whole squad, right? "If you make a mistake, fix it" goes double for me. What place does your pride have in your relationship? Are you prepared to sacrifice it if needs be? I don't think of myself as a terribly proud person. I have pride in my submissives, and I do think they they are a reflection on me---at the very least, a reflection of my CHOICE in keeping them. Am I prepared to look bad to make something better? Sure. What place does your submissive’s pride have, if any, in your relationship? Do you require the sacrifice of their pride because of their submissiveness? I expect my submissives to hold their heads up, look people in the eye, and be their own persons, essentially. They should be proud of themselves, what they have accomplished, and that I chose them. No unworthy worms here---why would I choose someone unworthy? That said, I do not accept bragging, showing off, or flashy "look at me" self centeredness. Pride comes along with DIGNITY in my circle. How do you react to being told that you are wrong by your submissive? Does your pride allow you examine this, or do your defences rise in attack? Wrong in what way? If he says "That's stupid, Francine", well, he is asking for a smack in the mouth. If he disagrees with my opinions, there are graceful ways of doing that, and disagreements are allowed, if orders are followed. There are things he knows that I don't, and if he knows a better way, then he should feel free to say so in a respectful manner. If I have been going off the track in some way, and haven't noticed it, I want to know. I might be very hurt in the short term, but I would rather fix my faults than muddle onward and get deeper into the mud. I am not Ms Perfect Human. I try to be a good role model, but I fail sometimes, just as we all do. How do you treat/work with your submissive when their pride has been hurt? Is it different when you are the one who hurt it? How do you behave if your pride has been hurt by your submissive? (tricky one to answer truthfully that) I work hard to not hurt or humiliate. This is a function of my childhood as a freak---I live to make people feel better, not worse. I need my relationships to be a safe haven, and I want my submissives to have that safety with me, too. I will defend them to the best of my ability, and build up their strength. Unfortunately, when I am the one that is hurt, I tend to gloss it over and smile pretty...not the most honest way of going about things! I am not good at displaying vulnerability, especially when I am the strong one, the one in charge. Well shoot, I am not good at displaying vulnerability anyway! The hardest thing for me is to work past being hurt without building up a wall between myself and the person that hurt me. Is it wise to admit that my submissive has the power to hurt me? Tricky ground, certainly!! Thanks for posting this, Softness, lots of food for thought.

leadership527 -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 11:12:41 AM)
So my answers as a vanilla, non-kinky, non-badass dominant... Dominants – or what you will Given that you not only have responsibility for yourself, but for another (or others) how do you ensure that your pride does not become hubris? Well, that's a tricky question. Of course, in the end, there's no real substitue for careful introspection and listening when you get painful feedback. But it also helps that I attach my pride to things like, "how happy are the two of us in our marriage", not "How hard did I whip her this evening." How prepared are you to admit to being wrong? Totally. And for me, it costs me nothing. I have said for the longest time that I only care about being right in the end. Who cares who was right in the beginning? So if I have a thought or opinion and it's not correct, I want to know about that and correct it promptly and it doesn't cost me any "pride points" to do it. In fact, not being open and prompt about changing my opinion would cost me a LOT of pride points because I'd have to acknowledge that I was an idiot, fool, or both. Do you find it harder to admit you are wrong to your submissive because of the power exchange? Easier, not harder. I trust her more than I ever have in the past (back when we were even more vanilla). With that trust, it becomes easier to expose myself and my vulnerabilities and weaknesses and failures. What place does your pride have in your relationship? Are you prepared to sacrifice it if needs be? As I wrote above, my pride in my relationship is a function of how well I am doing at being a great life partner and making the both of us happy as clams. And no, I am most definitely NOT prepared to sacrifice that. Conveniently, it's hard to think of a situation where that sort of pride would not work out well. If you mean "Pride that makes me lie by asserting that I am right even when I know I'm wrong.", then I don't have that sort of pride and if I did, I'd pray to god every day that I could sacrifice it quickly and permanently. What place does your submissive’s pride have, if any, in your relationship? Do you require the sacrifice of their pride because of their submissiveness? I'd have to ask in-depth, but for the most part, I'm pretty sure mine's pride is a lot like my own. And no, I would never want her to do anything which chipped into her self-image. Why the heck would I want that? In fact, I spend a lot of time encouraging her to think of herself as a great woman, a great wife, a great artist, a great friend and yes, a great slave. How do you react to being told that you are wrong by your submissive? Does your pride allow you examine this, or do your defences rise in attack? Again, see above. My pride isn't based upon whether I was initially right. It is only based upon whether I achieved my objectives which are universally centered on US winning. So it really doesn't impact me at all to find there was some flaw in my plan or thinking or whatever. That's just an opportunity to become "more right" as far as I'm concerned. How do you treat/work with your submissive when their pride has been hurt? Is it different when you are the one who hurt it? This one is too varied to answer completely. But with the utmost of sensitive loving care that I can for the situation at hand. And yes, if it was me who did it, then that care is preceeded by whatever amount of apologies are appropriate for the magnitude of my faux pas. How do you behave if your pride has been hurt by your submissive? (tricky one to answer truthfully that) Actually, not at all that tricky. This came up just recently I think. It wasn't that big of a deal. There was the initial hurt. That lasted maybe 10 minutes or so. Then there was the introspection.. the need to understand what was going on -- I think maybe a 30 minute walk around the block. Then I approached her and said something like, "you've really hurt me when you...." The problem was history no more than an hour after that counting discussion time and make-up snuggling time. Through all of this, it's not that I want to suggest that I have no sense of pride or that it cannot be hurt. It's just that I'm pretty careful which peg I hang that hat on. I take pride in success, not in being right. I take pride in being "good for those around me", not in being right. My management mentor said this to me... Sometimes you get to be right and that's all you get. sage words

kiwisub12 -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 11:18:01 AM)
I am sorry you are/had troubles in your life. It sucks, especially as life goes on, and tends to let you know how you screwed up. Hugggs.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 11:31:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: softness Dominants – or what you will Given that you not only have responsibility for yourself, but for another (or others) how do you ensure that your pride does not become hubris? I am fortunate to have peers whom I can trust to make sure that, as my mother put it, I don't get "too big for my britches". Despite the discomfort, I find that it is often beneficial to listen carefully to others' criticisms. Many times, they're exactly what I need to hear, and am unable to bring myself to accept. quote: How prepared are you to admit to being wrong? Do you find it harder to admit you are wrong to your submissive because of the power exchange? I try to be pretty good about admitting that I am wrong. I don't find it harder to admit to my servants -- but sometimes I find it difficult, and requiring a little adjustment time, to admit it to myself. quote: What place does your pride have in your relationship? Are you prepared to sacrifice it if needs be? We consider "pride" to be our self-respect and dignity, and no, we would not sacrifice our self-respect, dignity, or honor. quote: What place does your submissive’s pride have, if any, in your relationship? Do you require the sacrifice of their pride because of their submissiveness? Again, we consider pride to be synonymous with self-respect, so we expect that our servants will have pride in themselves and in their service to us, and we would not ask for that to be sacrificed. quote: How do you react to being told that you are wrong by your submissive? Does your pride allow you examine this, or do your defences rise in attack? It typically depends on -how- a servant presents an error. I understand that sometimes, our servants will have information that I do not have, and that without their information, I will make a decision that is inappropriate. If the information is presented in a "Ha-ha, I got you!" fashion, I am liable to be less receptive. That doesn't mean that I won't listen, and accept the possibility that I've made an error -- however, that doesn't mean that the servant who presents the information in a snide or discourteous manner would not be disciplined for the attitude, even while I accept that I may have been wrong. Also, if the servant presenting the information is rude or discourteous about doing so, I am likely to have to get past my own anger before I can evaluate the information provided concerning my error. quote: How do you treat/work with your submissive when their pride has been hurt? Is it different when you are the one who hurt it? Hmmm. Because I consider pride to be an aspect of self-respect, I would probably work with a servant who was consistently taking offense or showing signs of wounded pride regarding internal validation and accepting constructive criticism with grace. It would require getting down to the root reason why outside opinions go so far as to remove that servant's capacity to retain self-respect/pride, and helping the servant to improve hir sense of internal validation. quote: How do you behave if your pride has been hurt by your submissive? (tricky one to answer truthfully that) When I am feeling vulnerable to comments made by a servant (or even by my Darling or another peer), my tendency is to get a bit snippy until I can find a place by myself for a while and evaluate what was said and determine how to make the best use of the information. Any time there is a difference of opinion, human beings tend to become defensive and try to retain the 'status quo' on their perception of themselves, and I'm no different on that. However, most of the time, if the information is offered courteously, and I know that the individual, servant or otherwise, is a valued member of our household or someone that I respect, I am able to accept my hostility towards the new idea, and embrace at least the possibility that the individual has a valid point -- after that, it's not too hard to evaluate and determine whether to apply the information or not. As I said earlier, though, if the information is presented in a hostile or argumentative manner, I typically have to work through the anger at the presentation before I can get to the information part. Calla Firestorm

NuevaVida -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 12:20:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: softness How do you balance your pride and your submission? I might have pride in my ability to submit as I have and to love as I do, but I stop short of getting carried away with myself or arrogant about it. A sense of pride is good for the esteem. Too much pride usually has me toppling over, back to reality and fast. quote: How easy to you find it to admit that you are wrong, and that errors in judgement are your own? I'm much better at this than I used to be. I used to kick and scream before I ever could admit I was wrong. Now, after the shock of failure, it doesn't take long to analyze my part in it so I can understand myself better. It's not as painful for me to admit errors and failures as it used to be. A recent discovery of mine is an inherent need for honesty - from myself and from others. Not facing my own personal failures is not being honest with myself. quote: What place is your pride given in the relationship? Is that maintained? Or do you have to maintain it yourself? I can take pride in serving my side of the relationship to the best of my ability. I suppose that pride would be maintained by both my partner and myself, through dialogue, through seeing his satisfaction, and through my own satisfaction. quote: What means, if any, are you given to communicate to your Dominant that you think they are wrong? Are you allowed to even make that judgement? This is a very interesting question. My former Master would never admit wrong doing and often became really defensive if I pointed out what I believed to be an error on his part. I was very careful about how I pointed things out, trying to be as diplomatic as possible. I still needed him to know what I believed, however, so I would not hold back those thoughts, but I would spend a lot of energy figuring out the best way to express myself in this regard. The man I am talking to now does not appear to be like that at all. Dialogue is open and free. I would imagine if we continue long enough for me to experience a mistake by him that I could just tell him what I think and he would receive it and we would talk about it. quote: How do you behave when your pride has been hurt generally? … and by your Dominant? I don't think we can get through life without our pride being hurt. Mine has been hurt enough that I just take it in stride. When my Master hurt my pride it hurt me deeply, because it meant I had failed him or disappointed him. Talking to this new man, I am very careful to take each day at a time, not to expect too much from him or from myself, and to try to balance my sense of pride. I like this man and I want him to like me, too. I don't feel I have this inherent right to be liked by him - he'll either want to continue with me or not. I can only be myself, and I am learning new dimensions about myself that I really like. He and I both know I am still healing from my recent relationship and that I still have a lot of personal work to do as a result, and right now I don't feel I have a lot of reason to be prideful. I would imagine if he chose to discontinue what we seem to be creating my pride would be hurt, and I would go back to questioning myself. But then I will heal from that, too. I have great friends who are honest with me and keep me in check. quote: How does your Dominant behave when you have hurt theirs? As mentioned above, my former Master tended to turn blame around. I don't know yet how this new man will respond to a bruised pride. He recently thought he did something that emotionally hurt me, and he was really humble and dear about it. Softness, as a side note, I wish you the best in coming to terms with things. I think we share some similarities here, and I want you to know my email is always open for you.

softness -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 12:24:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida Softness, as a side note, I wish you the best in coming to terms with things. I think we share some similarities here, and I want you to know my email is always open for you. Everything that you wrote in this post .. had me nodding ... our situations are shockingly similar

TreasureKY -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 12:29:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: softness How do you balance your pride and your submission? I don't equate submissiveness with being humble, and I don't view pride as an obstacle to being submissive. It's not a problem. quote: ORIGINAL: softness How easy to you find it to admit that you are wrong, and that errors in judgement are your own? Admitting isn't hard, it's accepting that takes work. I'm a perfectionist at heart and I hold myself to a very high standard. I hate being wrong or making mistakes, though I know that I will. I tend to beat myself up and have a hard time forgiving myself. In one respect only do I find that advantageous... it causes me to make damn sure I believe I'm right before I open my mouth, and I work doubly hard to avoid mistakes. quote: ORIGINAL: softness What place is your pride given in the relationship? It isn't given a place in our relationship; it's just a part of who I am, so it's obviously integrated into how I relate to Firm and how he relates to me. With specific regard to how the D/s dynamic within our relationship is affected, the pride I take in doing a job well, looking my best, etc., provides impetus for me to always strive to do a job well, look my best, etc. If he feels pride in having me as his submissive, it is the ultimate incentive for me to take pride in myself. It's a vicious cycle. [;)] quote: ORIGINAL: softness Is that maintained? Or do you have to maintain it yourself? As only I can make the effort needed to achieve the potential that generates pride in myself, then yes, I have to maintain it myself. However, Firm helps me to maintain it by providing incentive in the form of taking pride in me, encouraging growth in me that creates new areas in which to feel proud, and by not unnecessarily tearing my pride down. quote: ORIGINAL: softness What means, if any, are you given to communicate to your Dominant that you think they are wrong? Are you allowed to even make that judgement? I have no special protocol to follow if I wish to give him my opinion, though in order to maintain harmony and promote free and clear avenues of communication, I treat his pride with the same care and respect that he treats my own. I am not only allowed to share my opinion (I wouldn't call it judging), I am expected to let him know if I believe he is either wrong or making a mistake. In another thread, he had this to say: quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY ... part of my expectation in a relationship with Treasure is that she be strong enough, honest enough and smart enough to challenge me when she believes that I'm "off the deep end" or incorrect in some thought, action, or belief. Is that a comfortable thing, to be challenged by my sub? No, it's not always a pleasant feeling to be challenged, but growth and greater understanding generally comes from resolving challenges and differing points of view. I realize that I'm' not (yet ) perfect, but I also believe that it's much more likely that I can achieve something close to it if I have at least a second point of view that I can value. To me, that is an important part of what I looked for in a sub: the willingness and ability to acknowledge my "supremacy of position", yet comfortable and secure enough in themselves and a relationship to be able to confirm and or question me (in a tactful, respectful and caring manner) about my beliefs, methods and thinking. quote: ORIGINAL: softness How do you behave when your pride has been hurt generally? … and by your Dominant? While I typically feel a wide range of emotions from fear and shame to indignation and defensiveness, generally I behave quietly first, and if, after introspection, I believe the wounding of my pride was unjustified, I will defend it. If my pride was indeed misplaced, then I am contrite and behave so while doubling my efforts to genuinely earn that pride. Having my pride wounded by Firm is even worse as I lose not only the pride in myself, but his pride in me. quote: ORIGINAL: softness How does your Dominant behave when you have hurt theirs? I would say that he behaves similarly to me... biding his reaction pending the outcome of his introspection.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 12:52:40 PM)
~posting error~

leadership527 -> RE: Hubris, Humility, and Human Error (8/31/2008 1:57:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY I don't equate submissiveness with being humble, and I don't view pride as an obstacle to being submissive. It's not a problem. Oh my lord! Thank you for saying that. As soon as mine gets off the phone, she is going to read that statement.

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