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Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 11:20:15 AM   
tychtyp


Posts: 45
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline 		Submissive females have incredible leverage over their male masters due to the enormous glut of male dominants.  If a sub chooses to, she could easily switch out her current master for someone better (i.e., more attractive, smarter, wiser, richer, etc.)--yet some subs don't seem to realize this.

My hypothesis is that the nature of dom/sub relationships is psychologically advantageous to the dom to the point where a cunning dom can basically make his place impregnable, regardless of his actual merits.  So you see perverse outcomes like a far more intelligent sub convinced that her master has so much to teach her, when to the outside world he's really just another unsuccessful, middle-aged hillbilly.

Agree, disagree, refinements?
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 11:23:59 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		I think you contradict your thread title.

(in reply to tychtyp)
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 11:27:42 AM   
WhiplashSmile2


Posts: 526
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline 		What you just posted might sound good in theory, here's a few things you are failing to take into consideration.

People's burning desire, love, devotion and wanting to be with one another.

In all honestly, do you actually believe or think that D/s relationship are so void of emotions and of people wanting to be with one another? 

Your makes everything sound so cold and impersonal.  This is not the way it really is for many people.

Your post perhaps best fits with Play Partners,  however will crumble apart in the face of many healthy D/s relationships.

In regards to D/s relationships, the sub can walk, or even the Master can walk. Same as it is for any Vanilla relationship.  a BDSM relationship is still a relationship.  Even Non-Kinky people in the so called vanilla world have D/s relationships. 

The reality of power is that both parties have it.  What makes a D/s relationship work is the power of authority.  

In terms of understanding things, you have to think about the many different types of forms of power there is.

The Power of Love and desire can be perhaps the most powerful thing, that keeps people together.  

< Message edited by WhiplashSmile2 -- 8/31/2008 11:47:02 AM >

(in reply to tychtyp)
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 11:36:21 AM   
naughtysubK


Posts: 62
Joined: 5/2/2004
Status: offline 		yes,  the excess of male Domly types compared to female sub types does give the ladies the chance to be a bit more choosy in who they play with.  But if a sub is in a relationship with a Dominant partner that she feels is the One for her,  and the relationship works for both parties, she is not likely to switch out Doms just because there are so many out there. 

People are not interchangeable like that,  whether they are Dom or sub 

(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 11:44:25 AM   
badlilthang


Posts: 357
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tychtyp

So you see perverse outcomes like a far more intelligent sub convinced that her master has so much to teach her, when to the outside world he's really just another unsuccessful, middle-aged hillbilly.

Agree, disagree, refinements?



Only one short question - how do you, tychtype, define success?

To me success is not neccessarily 3 Porsches in the garage - a villa in France - a chalet in Switzerland - and a mansion involved. Neither is it good looks or expensive clothes.

Success to me is for instance a man in his wood workshop - making funiture. Not rich in money - but very succesful in how He lives His life. Hie eyes light up when He finishes a new piece of furniture  and His biggest gift when the day ends is the smile of the woman at His feet - seeing Him as her Master...because He is indeed that - her Master and Master of His own life - hence successful..s..




_____________________________

.Forgiveness is the fragrance a flower leaves in the air after being crushed underfoot.

(in reply to tychtyp)
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 11:46:05 AM   
badlilthang


Posts: 357
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		ops. double, and i do not know how to delete the entire post.


< Message edited by badlilthang -- 8/31/2008 11:57:55 AM >

_____________________________

.Forgiveness is the fragrance a flower leaves in the air after being crushed underfoot.

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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 11:47:09 AM   
Bstardsbitch


Posts: 154
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		how do these "cunning Dom's" make themselves impregnable?

(in reply to badlilthang)
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 11:56:39 AM   
WhiplashSmile2


Posts: 526
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bstardsbitch
how do these "cunning Dom's" make themselves impregnable?

Ummmmmmmmmm.. perhaps birth control? 

This OP sounds more like an issue involving cultural, social class and age differences.  Not to mention an apparent mindset that DOMs are teachers.

Just read the last sentence of the OP, and I think these are the real issue that he's trying to address here. 


(in reply to Bstardsbitch)
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 12:00:57 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		OK, I had this little brain flash after watching some PBS Nature show and it talked in depth about mate selection among various species.  The interesting point was that quite freqently, while it might be the male that is flitting from nest to nest, doing all the active effort, it is the female that is actually making the decision.  My opinion is that...

Looking at the human species as an animal, the female of the species is who does mate selection.

The act of selection, however, is not the same thing as having power.  There are lots of kinds of power.  In this example, the female has the power to start the relationship.  That's it.  Once it is started, she's now just as embedded in it as the male.  Emotional strings are tied together.  They HURT when they are untied.  As soon as the bonds have formed to any significant degree, then power becomes almost a pointless concept, but insofar as it exists at all, it is equally shared.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to tychtyp)
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 12:01:12 PM   
Bstardsbitch


Posts: 154
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		Have you by any chance been dumped by someone who chose an older
Dom over you?
Sounds like sour grapes

(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 12:05:55 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

she could easily switch out her current master for someone better   


The key word here which negates your premise is “better”.  I am happy and content with the 2 dominants in my life.  Is it perfect?  Are they perfect?  No, and no.  But we have history, and trust and a hell of a good time.  Occasionally I am contacted by other dominants and some of them are initially interesting enough to try to get to know them.  It has never worked out, but even if it did, I would not leave R. or S. for anyone else.  I may include this new person but with the understanding that I am not about to dump the 2 already in my life.  One man opined that I was victimizing R. and S. They laughed when I told them what he had said.
Better?  Pah, there may be a great quantity to choose from, but the quality is sorely lacking. 
Quit focusing on who has the “REAL” power, because in reality everyone, no matter their orientation, decides for themselves whether to go or stay. 
We all have choices; the important thing to remember is that each choice has a consequence for good or ill.


_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to tychtyp)
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 12:07:46 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Could I find someone richer than him? Yes.
Would that hypothetical someone be 'better'? Hell, no.

He understands me and loves me as is. That isn't just better, it's the best.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to catize)
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 12:09:22 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		In a sense you are contradicting your own statement.
You are saying that owned s-types have more power than their owners and that single 'cunning' dominants are the most powerful of all, which means that s-types are not the most powerful ulimately?
 
Unless you can back that with statistics, I cannot see where this might be going because it is basically talking itself in a circle?
 
Long term relationships aren't less because people choose not to have them, it's because most people have no patience, suck at communication and are crap at relationships.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to tychtyp)
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 12:16:26 PM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tychtyp
My hypothesis is that the nature of dom/sub relationships is psychologically advantageous to the dom to the point where a cunning dom can basically make his place impregnable, regardless of his actual merits.  So you see perverse outcomes like a far more intelligent sub convinced that her master has so much to teach her, when to the outside world he's really just another unsuccessful, middle-aged hillbilly.

Agree, disagree, refinements?


The only "refinement" I would offer is with regard to the words of your OP that I highlighted in bold.

There is more than one locus of power in this world.  You invoke a stereotype of a man who is "unsuccessful" (by which I can only assume you mean that he is not rich and does not work in a profession that requires a Masters degree or a PhD), who is "middle-aged" (I can only assume you believe this is relevant because his sub is younger than he is?), and who is a "hillbilly" (a pejorative term for people living in mountainous rural areas, especially in the Appalachian region from West Virginia, Kentucky, North Carolina and Tennessee--it is an epithet every bit as hateful as "nigger", "spic" or "gook" to people who have been subjected to it, by the way, and the friends of mine who grew up hearing it will still gladly beat you unconscious if you dare to say it to their faces).

You wonder how such a man might have anything to teach an "intelligent" younger submissive, but the wording of your own post is the answer to your question.

A man who is labeled and dismissed by "the outside world" based on things which have nothing to do with his character--his social class, his material goods, his age or his place of birth--can teach an intelligent young woman a hell of a lot.  Even leaving aside the knowledge and wisdom that he might have accumulated because he is older than she is, and has probably lived a more difficult and less sheltered life...the relevant lessons a dominant learns about power exchange and BDSM are NOT taught in the classrooms of any university.  There is absolutely no reason why a so-called "middle-aged hillbilly" could not be a superb, extremely skilled and powerful dom, very well-equipped to keep a submissive woman satisfied in every possible way.  And a good dominant can teach a submissive a great deal about herself, and what she wants and needs to be happy.

In the specific scenario you're invoking, though, I think the most valuable thing such a man could teach his female partners in BDSM relationships...is not to give a flying fuck what "the outside world" thinks.  In BDSM as in other aspects of one's deeply personal life...it rarely pays or leads to ANY happiness to care too much what the outside world thinks.  This is true regardless of whether you're dom or sub.  Let's face facts here:  the "outside world" generally doesn't think that people should be kinky at all!  The narrowly conceived vision of human sexuality that the Herd offers is so confining that it pinches most of us at the shoulders, if not outright choking the life out of us.   The "outside world" is full of narrow-minded idiots.  Why should we assume that their ideals of manly virtue aren't every bit as worthless as their views of "correct" love and sex? 


< Message edited by ShaktiSama -- 8/31/2008 1:09:23 PM >

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to tychtyp)
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 12:25:12 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		Masters have as much power as their submissives give them.  Sometimes it is misplaced power; sometimes it is perfectly placed.

(in reply to tychtyp)
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 12:34:58 PM   
ToysAndTies


Posts: 124
Joined: 5/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

OK, I had this little brain flash after watching some PBS Nature show and it talked in depth about mate selection among various species. The interesting point was that quite freqently, while it might be the male that is flitting from nest to nest, doing all the active effort, it is the female that is actually making the decision. My opinion is that...

Looking at the human species as an animal, the female of the species is who does mate selection.

The act of selection, however, is not the same thing as having power. There are lots of kinds of power. In this example, the female has the power to start the relationship. That's it. Once it is started, she's now just as embedded in it as the male. Emotional strings are tied together. They HURT when they are untied. As soon as the bonds have formed to any significant degree, then power becomes almost a pointless concept, but insofar as it exists at all, it is equally shared.


I don't know if I agree with the PBS analogy in this instance. There's still a great deal of alpha dominance competition between males over 'mate selection' in the human species, so I wouldn't say it's entirely one-sided. Back to his original topic though... I'd say that s-type females have more "power" than male masters for a different reason.

The way our laws are set up (at least in the US) kink activities lend themselves to favor females should one partner of a pair or group feel a sort of buyer's remorse when things turn south. Extending his market philosophy of the male Dom supply far exceeding demand, a savvy shopping sub does have more choices than a male Dom might. This is just baby boom aftermath and the prevailing trend of younger women going for older men down the generations. The way I see this post, it's kind of asking about "power" in the stake sense, implying that whoever has less to lose or more alternatives has more power. I disagree with this approach to analyzing relationship dynamics because it suggests that the person who really truly does not care about the other has the most power possible in the relationship...but who'd want to be in a relationship with that kind of person?

Let's throw a for-instance out there. We'll call the male Dom Zeus, just for fun. Zeus is known for being great with every play implement of destruction, an excellent lover, successful (however people define that), and very desirable. Sub women throw themselves at Zeus...he gets more messages on CM than a new female user. Now, if he's in a relationship with a submissive, now that he has plenty of alternatives and great odds of landing another sub that he desires, does he become the more powerful one? Or, is there one shining diamond in the rough that he has his eyes on, who he'd do anything for, who he'd turn all the others away to please?

Power isn't a metric that can be objectively viewed from an outside perspective. It's very internal, and individual within a relationship. We get used to reading actions to determine where power lies... clearly, she's trampling him in stilettos, she must be the one in control. But if the tramplee could easily walk out of the relationship and stomper could not...? I don't believe as a rule one side of the flogger or blindfold has more power than the other, however, in different relationships, with different dynamics, sure, I can believe that a sub female has more power than her master. I could also point out the opposite.

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 12:40:00 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		We're equating numbers to power?  I'm supposed to feel more powerful because I can fuck and suck and have a "relationship" with more humans?

Now, it's certainly true in the courtship process that hetero females do have something of an upper hand and an edge.  That should not, however, be extrapolated to saying women have more power, or that women are more powerful WITHIN the relationships they actually choose to have.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ToysAndTies)
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 12:42:10 PM   
E2Sweet


Posts: 649
Joined: 7/8/2008
From: TopLeftCornerOf, OH, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tychtyp

Submissive females have incredible leverage over their male masters due to the enormous glut of male dominants...


I'll agree female submissives have a larger pool of male dominants to choose from due to the lopsided numbers (as nsK stated), but I don't necessarily see that as having leverage within a D/s relationship once a D-type and s-type come together. If she is indeed dead-set on using the numbers to try to gain some sort of power over the dominant, he's likely going to catch on and put his foot down (so to speak). If he does so, then what advantage did she really ever have? Even if her playing the numbers card ends the relationship, how did she come out ahead?

It would seem to me, someone with this mindset didn't ever really have any leverage within the relationship at all, just a tool that could be used to sabotage the D/s structure. So in this instance, everyone loses...

quote:

If a sub chooses to, she could easily switch out her current master for someone better (i.e., more attractive, smarter, wiser, richer, etc.)--yet some subs don't seem to realize this.


It's never a guarantee that, when we leave one partner and search for another, the next one will be more attractive, smarter, wiser, richer, ect... The reality is that it's always a possibility, regardless of how rich, pretty, or famous any one person is, they may not ever find another partner.

quote:

My hypothesis is that the nature of dom/sub relationships is psychologically advantageous to the dom to the point where a cunning dom can basically make his place impregnable, regardless of his actual merits.  So you see perverse outcomes like a far more intelligent sub convinced that her master has so much to teach her, when to the outside world he's really just another unsuccessful, middle-aged hillbilly.


I personally don't know (or have ever heard stories of) a single unsuccessful, middle-aged hillbilly, who dominates highly intelligent submissives, and is able to do based solely on being a cunning individual. I suppose that scenario is theoretically possible, but I find it far, far from the realm of practical.

People who are not truly compatible will one another will, more times than not, realize it at some point, be it early on or late in the game. In my experiences, it seems life has a funny way of making sure of that.

Edited for clarity... only because I didn't feel I was being clear.


< Message edited by E2Sweet -- 8/31/2008 1:33:53 PM >

_____________________________

E2Sweet™
"If it doesn't make you smile then chances are you're not doing it right."

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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 12:42:29 PM   
hopelessfool


Posts: 988
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		In general, Everyone Ive met on the site is human, and every human has had one thing in common, they are choosy about their mate, be them Dom or sub, Male or female, why? Why be with someone not worth the effort? Why devote your time and energy to be with someone you dont find attractive or fulfilling. Mind you Status in life "if hes making millions or not" Is not what I find attractive or fulfilling, His book collection, that I find attractive, and its very fulfilling if it can cut books of my insane amazon wish list (revised version with out the classics is hovering around 1000....) If he looks at me in the middle of the day and smiles, thats attractive to me. If it works for me and Him, It works for me and him. If it also wouldnt work for you, Well find what works for you.

There are thousands of things in the world That wouldnt work for me, in my life, Doesnt make those millions of people who do them wrong, or less, or this or that, it makes them Different.


_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to NuevaVida)
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RE: Sub females have more power than their male masters - 8/31/2008 12:47:54 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Last time I saw an argument like this, someone threw in a monkey wrench by stating that the number of male Doms was highly variable depending on whether the wanker wannabees were included.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to hopelessfool)
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