Being "bratty" vs. independent (Full Version)

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Monkeyontuesday -> Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/2/2008 10:05:16 PM)

For whatever reason, recently I have gotten an increase in e-mails that claim I'm a "fake" in whatever sense of the word because my trust, especially in a romantic relationship, would take time to earn, especially if I chose a D/s relationship. For one, there are very certain  things I would require in the relationship and without them I would not pursue it -- some have accused me of being a brat and wanting everything my way because of this.
Many of the Doms have offered to teach me life skills -- IE balancing a check book, etc etc as one assertion of their dominance. I've been entirely self-sustaining and without a partner for two years and don't need those skills; I also am a student and know how and when to get my activities accomplished for the desired result and thus it would be detrimental for me to have a Dom come in and attempt to start changing things around when they don't understand the complexities of the situation.

So, I'm curious, where do you draw the line?



theq -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/2/2008 10:20:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday
So, I'm curious, where do you draw the line?


Each person is different. Some people need more management than others. Sometimes otherwise responsible people work themselves into a hard to manage situation and thus need someone to step in and help them get reorganized. Others have life pretty well managed. In the end what roles a partner will take in your life is between you and him.

Clear as mud, right?

Hope this helps.

Q



leadership527 -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 12:05:04 AM)

Draw which line?  If you're referring to the line about "you have some things you want out of the relationship", that's not a line, that's just a matter of deciding whether I want those things also.  What I can absolutely tell you is that if I decided I did not want to pursue a relationship, I would not be calling you names.  No matter what else may or may not have transpired between you and these other people, if any truly did resort to name calling, my opinion is that you can happily cross their names off any future lists.

If you're referring to the line about you not trustring right away, first not enough to get into a romantic relationship and then not enough to go D/s, that makes perfect sense to me.  I'm on the Dom side and I wouldn't either on both counts.  So I wouldn't really see that as much of an issue.  I've been contentedly drawing the submission out of my wife for 9 months now.  It's been a joyful time and I cannot for the life of me think why I'd want to rush.



Monkeyontuesday -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 12:39:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Draw which line?

I suppose what I meant to say is, what are your* criterion for a submissive? Many of the things Doms have told me they could help with, I don't need help with. That doesn't make any less of a sub or them any less of a Dom; but they did tell me I should label myself as a Domme or at the very least a switch because I "want things my way". I disagree, obviously.



MadRabbit -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 1:07:39 AM)

Hey, monkey, we got to discussing this a bit in a private, but now that I have some free time, I wanted to expand on it a bit more.

We, as a "general statement", dominants are control freaks meaning we thrive, find a sense of security, and enjoyment from being in control. As such, when someone begins talking to us and stating "I require this, I need this, I want this, this needs to happen before I can submit", it can be quite a turn off, because it places us as the one following your direction and robs us of that control we enjoy. Personally, I determine the pace of how things go in my progressing relationships and if I meet someone who is untrusting or unwilling to allow me to set that pace, then I lose interest.

While there certainly isn't anything wrong with having boundaries, having your own set of standards and expectations for a partner, and developing trust, the difference lies in the communication style and how you express yourself. Kind of like the difference between saying "Hey asshole, can you get me a fucking cup of tea?" and "Excuse me, would you mind getting me a cup of tea?". In both cases, you might have indifferently wanted a cup of tea, but because of the differences in expression, one would be perceived as offensive and demanding and the other courteous and pleasant.

Dominants don't particularly like being told how things are gonna go and how things need to be done and it's something to be mindful of when talking to us. Much in the same way, dominants need to be mindful that self respecting submissives aren't going to lean over and suck our cock on the first date via a snap of the fingers and need to temper our communication style to not be aggressive, pushy or overbearing.

Another thing to consider is that some dominants (myself included) aren't simply looking for a partner who wants us to make decisions for them, but are looking for a partner who wants to serve and focus on another as part of who they are. Now whether you are or are not such a person is up for you to decide and if you aren't there is nothing wrong with that. It just means you need to find a dominant who just wants to make decisions and isn't looking for those qualities in a partner. But, regardless, a large number of endless "I" statements would turn off such dominants, because it express someone who is solely focused on the "self" as opposed to the "dominant".

I hope that helps some.



Monkeyontuesday -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 1:29:31 AM)

" Dominants don't particularly like being told how things are gonna go and how things need to be done"
I agree and can understand that statement. However, as you stated, just because there is some random man who identifies themselves as a Dominant doesn't mean I'm going to do anything at "the snap of a finger" without some sort of history first.
In no way am I trying to "top from the bottom" or any other phrase you* like, but as I stated, certain criterion must be met for it to be a profitable relationship to me.
* you as in general "you", not specific "you" ;-)



MadRabbit -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 1:55:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday

" Dominants don't particularly like being told how things are gonna go and how things need to be done"
I agree and can understand that statement. However, as you stated, just because there is some random man who identifies themselves as a Dominant doesn't mean I'm going to do anything at "the snap of a finger" without some sort of history first.
In no way am I trying to "top from the bottom" or any other phrase you* like, but as I stated, certain criterion must be met for it to be a profitable relationship to me.
* you as in general "you", not specific "you" ;-)


I understand that completely, but you have mentioned that a couple of times now and have gone out of your way to make that clear.

I don't doubt that about you, but treating a potential partner with a degree of hostility and making it clear that they need to "earn" your trust before you do "boo" isn't always the best way to start off relations with someone.

Perhaps the real issue is your trust issues and that the way you express yourself is making people feel like the "enemy".

Just something to consider.



IrishMist -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 3:00:31 AM)

quote:

So, I'm curious, where do you draw the line?

I draw the line at what I am willing to accept, what I need to compromise on, and what I am willing to live with. Until I say otherwise; I make the decisions on how my life is lived, who it is lived with, and how it is lived. I don't settle for anything less that what I want and what I need to be happy.



soul2share -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 3:40:10 AM)

Monkey, I too am totally independent, and am the sole person responsible for my daily life.  I work a different schedule than most people do, nights and weekends.  Those facts alone make it hard to start any kind of relationship, as yes, I am independent, and yes, this means that in order to get the same sleep that anyone else does, I have to get it during the day...but you know something, if fitting those issues into a relationship is a problem for anyone else, then I'm outta there. 

As far as the whole "fake" thing goes......as far as I'm concerned, my trust is to be earned, not just handed out freely.  This is true in ANY relationship.....friend, acquaintance, lover....BDSM be damned.  I fail to see why "doms" expect you to submit even before meeting them.....and as far as respect, he needs to prove to me he deserves it.  And as for the offers of being taught life skills......now that is just a bit arrogant on their part.....hello......I'm an adult, already, OK?  If nothing else, I've picked those up along the way......DUH!

Drawing the line.....well, it can be 6" in front of me, or way off in the distance......but either way, it's there, in the sand, visible for anyone to see.  I refuse to settle, and that means I'm going to tell the dom in question that this is my life, so deal with it.....there are certain areas that are set in stone, there are certain patterns that I have developed that work with and for me, and again, he needs to make some adjustments on his part.  Contrary to popular belief, D/s is NOT all about the dom....there is a sub there that needs to be part of the total equation in order for things to work.  And I pretty much just put the issues and my needs right out there.....if the way I word my sentences makes me fake, well, hell then.....let him say what he wants.  Look at it as an easy way to weed out the bums......I have always made it my prioroty NOT TO SETTLE.....you should to.

Just this sub's .05..........



Padriag -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 4:45:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday

So, I'm curious, where do you draw the line?

Where do I draw the line between bratty and independent.... simple... attitude.

One can be very independent, self sufficient, and capable... and still be humble.

A brat isn't humble... and may not be all that independent, self sufficient or capable (which just makes it even less appealing... if there can be such a thing as less than zero appeal).

I don't know you and so know nothing of your attitude.  But if you feel the need to question it about yourself, look in the mirror and ask yourself whether you are generally a humble person  or not.  If you are, then you probably aren't a brat.



SirZarath -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 6:24:16 AM)

Hi,


Submissives being called 'fake' happens all the time I suppose, especially in on-line areas. A few observations:

- I agree with what MadRabbit says about this: it might have something to do with the way you express yourself, but ...
- .. it might as well have to do with the Doms (or self-proclaimed Doms) you talk to. Quite some 'just horny men' who read a page or two about D/s, bdsm or whatever, seem to have the idea in their heads that whenever someone calls herself submissive, she will instantly kneel in front of you and do whatever you want. Some others might just lack the patience to really get to know you and prefer to call you fake and move on.
- Another reason why some (mostly starting or clueless) dominants easily call someone fake is because they don't have the patience and self-confidence needed or simply are not strong enough for a self-reliant sub. OK, well, stop communicating with that person and look further untill you find someone who is.
- Paging around through the profiles here on this site, gives me the strong impression that there are indeed a lot of real 'fakes' here. If you only look at the amazing high number of 'lesbians' here, that is just not matching the number of lesbians in daily life. So I suspect quite some of them are actually males posing as females. That is at itself already a point that would make many Doms suspicious to start with. A profile with a picture of a gorgeous 'lesbian' girl, with the only text: "Take me as your slut" is a typical example of one I would not trust to be real.

Hope this helps you,

Zarath



DarkSteven -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 6:36:37 AM)

For me, the difference is who is in charge.  Brattiness assumes that I'm in charge, and the sub is pushing the boundaries.  For a reaction, because she's off that day, whatever reason.  I am required to deal with it or will have a full scale subbie revolt on my hands.

Independence is an assertion that at least in this area, the sub is in charge.

I have no issue with that.  I don't want to pick out her clothes each day or grant permission to use the bathroom.

That said, the fact that you require time to trust and respect someone enough to submit is of course a sign of sanity rather than being fake, and someone who offers to teach you life skills without ascertaining which ones you need, if any, is every bit as useful as a doctor who removes appendixes without determining if a patient has appendicitis.



DesFIP -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 9:44:06 AM)

Be grateful they're showing their true colors and incompatibility this early. It allows you to screen them out and focus on more compatible partners.



scottishdove -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 10:25:07 AM)

"For me, the difference is who is in charge.  Brattiness assumes that I'm in charge, and the sub is pushing the boundaries.  For a reaction, because she's off that day, whatever reason.  I am required to deal with it or will have a full scale subbie revolt on my hands. "

DarkSteven, thanks for acknowledging that brattiness can be a sign the sub needs something and needs to be addressed instead of ignored or punished.

I've never been a brat to the one Master I have had, but i like to think, in the future, if i was bratty.. it would be dealt with in a way that was helpful to me.

alice



CalifChick -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 10:42:00 AM)

This reminds me of a tactic that alot of bad salespeople use.  An effective salesperson finds out what I need, and then tells me how they can fill that need.  A bad (or ineffective) salesperson tells me how they THINK they can help me, without ever bothering to find out what I need.

For example, I've had people come in to my office and tell me they can save me X% on my office supplies.  I always say, "really, how do you know that without even knowing how much I'm spending now?"... to which they have no answer.  Or someone tried to tell me how they could increase my walk-in traffic of customers by X% through the yellow pages... I let them go on and on and when they finally stopped to take a breath I informed them that our company was strictly mail order, there WAS no walk-in traffic and we didn't want any (it was a very specialized company geared towards a certain subset of scientists).

So these men telling you they can teach you to balance your checkbook, or organize your life, or whatever... they aren't stopping to find out who you are and what you NEED... they're trying to sell their services first, services for which you have no use.  Maybe one or two will get lucky and you will actually mesh in the needs department, but for the vast majority who use that tactic, it will never work (well, not with you anyway).

I'm low maintenance, and I have been able to identify areas I need help on (mainly procrastination and being too nice to people who continually treat me like crap)... if someone wants someone high maintenance who needs lots of direction in their life, we'll never be a good fit.


Cali



CalifChick -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 10:43:48 AM)

Oh, and the trust thing... holding out the "you have to earn my trust" like a shield to protect you will come off as hostile.  What works for me is an attitude of, "I need to take things slowly so that I don't inadvertently punish you and me for the sins of others in the past."


Cali



NuevaVida -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 12:43:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Oh, and the trust thing... holding out the "you have to earn my trust" like a shield to protect you will come off as hostile.  What works for me is an attitude of, "I need to take things slowly so that I don't inadvertently punish you and me for the sins of others in the past."


Cali



It seems I'm following you around on the boards today :)

I bolded what you wrote above because it's exactly where I am, now.  I've told the man I'm talking to that I really didn't know that I was ready to enter another relationship (so soon, sheesh) because I have a lot of issues to work through regarding my last relationship and its recent end.  I added that I in no way wanted to drop my baggage in someone else's lap, and that there is a healing process I need to go through, and only I can do it.

His response was great - "I love talking to you and I want to continue.  Your baggage doesn't scare me, but you're right in that you have some work to do.  I won't interfere with that unless you ask me to."  I couldn't have asked for more. And it's great because my own issues do come up, but I'm aware of where they're coming from and why, I work through them, and I tell him about it.  I have a lot of fears moving forward, but I know they're about me, and not about him.

I personally can't see putting the burden on someone to "prove" he is trustworthy, and I don't think I would appreciate someone doing that to me.  As I told the man I'm conversing with, "I am me and I can only be me.  That will appeal to you or it won't, but only you can decide if I'm someone you want to hang out with, and if I'm someone you can trust."

So far so good!



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 4:13:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
We, as a "general statement", dominants are control freaks meaning we thrive, find a sense of security, and enjoyment from being in control.

Actually IME it's the subs who are more prevalently the control freaks.  Doms are usually far more easygoing. 

I agree with attitude- are they following the spirit of the relationship, not just the letter?  Are they at peace happy and quiet and relaxed, or do they need to gather attention towards themselves?



catize -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 4:40:31 PM)

First, accept the fact that you can’t (and probably don’t want to) win them all.  Some people have a very specific idea of what a submissive IS, how s/he should act, walk, talk etc  If you don’t fit their ideal then of course they will tell you that you are not submissive because, to them, you are not.  The important issue is to know what submission means to you.  Honesty to self is a prerequisite to honesty in a relationship.
Second, there is no top or bottom until an agreement has been reached. 
When I have asserted myself to self-proclaimed dominants and they pull the “you are topping from the bottom”, I tell them they are topping from fantasy land.  I find it preferable when someone is willing to learn about me, willing to let me get to know them, first.  I have a phrase I use; I want to discuss the chips and dips before we talk about the chains and whips.     
Some may disagree, but as a submissive I don’t need a guide.  I have done the work, and the thinking, and the sorting out what it all means; not just to me but to the relationship(s) I am in.  The two dominants I know have watched me struggle to learn and grow. They offered a listening ear and may have been the occasional catalyst but they didn’t create my submission, I did.
They have benefited from my self-work as much as I have gained from their own efforts to learn dominance. 
No one can make someone else dominant or submissive; neither can they negate you by calling you ‘fake’. 



aravain -> RE: Being "bratty" vs. independent (9/3/2008 6:16:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

For me, the difference is who is in charge.  Brattiness assumes that I'm in charge, and the sub is pushing the boundaries.  For a reaction, because she's off that day, whatever reason.  I am required to deal with it or will have a full scale subbie revolt on my hands.


Haha, I like this definition XD



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