Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (Full Version)

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FirmhandKY -> Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 6:32:39 AM)

Owner59's "fundies" thread is way too long and disjointed, so I'm likely not going to post in it again.

But I did find something that sums up pretty well my take on how her beliefs, and how the left's reaction to her will eventually play out on the political scene.

For your edification:


quote:

The Battle Of Bristol: John McCain Has The Upper Hand
By Kleinheider Posted on September 1, 2008 at 3:09 pm

The Left on the internet and elsewhere will attack this mother of five for failing to live up to the code that she preaches. They will explain that this is proof that traditionalism doesn’t work. That the religious right is a fraud. That the preaching of abstinence is a fool’s errand. They will explain all this thinking they have just laid down the trump card when all they have done is hand it to the opposition.

...

However, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and Bristol Palin is that reaction. Sarah Palin now has the capability of being what Hillary Clinton claimed to be — a hero of the blue collar working class.

Sarah Palin is a working mom with five kids who managed to become Governor of her state. Now Palin has been confronted with the great fear, and for many, the difficult reality of a pregnant teenage daughter. Sarah Palin lived by a code and tried to have her kids live by it as well. Did she fail?

Maybe she did. But as many parents know, you do the best you can with your children.

The Left will fight this battle as a political debate. They will argue that Bristol Palin proves their assertions about traditionalism. They will lay it out point by point. The evidence will be solid. And their case will make sense — in theory.

But this is not theory, and to a certain extent its not even politics, this is life. Steve Schmidt is not wrong when in reaction to the news he says, “Life happens.”

Life does happen. It happens again and again to people in rural America who go to church, work and pray hard. Everyday life happens. Despite their prayers, it happens.

The Left simply misunderstands the Cultural War because they believe that social and religious conservatives think they are perfect people. Rural, working class people know exactly who they are. The Left seems to think that they are somehow breaking the news to social conservatives that sometimes, even often, kids will have sex and get pregnant. Social conservatives know these things. They are not as divorced from reality as they sometimes get painted.

You see, conservatives have code by which they live that accounts for it all. Whether they are “right” or “wrong” is immaterial. It is the Left’s misunderstanding which is important here.

Conservatives know they are imperfect. Instead of embracing the imperfection and “giving up” they instead prefer to strive for something better.

Now, whether this outlook is conservative outlook is true or untrue, healthy or unhealthy is, again, not the point, politically speaking. Telling the American working class that Sarah Palin was wrong to have tried to bring up her daughters by a code in which she believed and that Bristol Palin’s unborn child is the proof that the Left’s arguments about traditional life are true will not resonate with anyone who is not already an Obama voter.

The Left cannot win this Battle of Bristol. The more they try to win it, to demonstrate they are right, the more they will lose ground with those voters they desperate need to stay home or vote for Barack Obama.

For what the Left sees as hypocrisy, most folks who are not Obama voters just see as falling short. As, of course, we, as humans, all do.

Bristol Palin’s journey is a human story. She tried to be good. She fell short. Instead of aborting the baby she will carry it to term and marry the father. To socially conservative America, there is nothing tragic about this.

You see, to many of the voters Barack Obama has not yet seemed to reach and who have thus far been ambivalent about McCain, this is exactly how these things are supposed to go. Their reality has not been shaken, the scales have not fallen from their eyes.

Sarah Palin did nothing “wrong.” And Bristol Palin did nothing other than sin, which we all do. She is now managing her sin as prescribed by tradition. To the traditionalist the situation is not ideal, no, but it is not a disaster.

This is a human story. The more the left attacks, attempts to expose “hypocrisy”, the more the personal will very much become the political. Unfortunately it will become political in a way that leads all those hard working Bubbas, all those church-going single mommas, right out to the polls to vote for that war hero and and those women they now identify with, Sarah and Bristol Palin.

To the Left, this situation looks like that big fat change-up they have been waiting for coming right across the plate. Let me assure you, friends, what is coming at you is a knuckleball, a greased pig with wings.

You are gonna want to take this pitch. You may win the “argument”, but you will lose the election.


Firm




meatcleaver -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 6:44:39 AM)

What a load of absurd rationalization.




chiaThePet -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 6:54:55 AM)

 
At the end of the day, when we rise above it all, as we always do,
it is the human condition which shall forge our actions. And though
it would seem during the fevers pitch we forget such, we are human.

chia* (the pet)




LaTigresse -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 7:44:58 AM)

Here's what it all boils down to, to me.

Forget the handicapped kid, forget the pregnant teenager, forget the husband's old DUI, forget the gender, and the republican party. NONE of that stuff matters to ME.

What matters to me.......No one that wants to make serious government decisions based upon religious faith has any business leading this country. The extreme right is just too bloody extreme. Haven't we work hard enough to have alternate lifestyle/sexuality choices accepted or at least tollerated? Do we really want someone with such an extreme point of view attempting to make decisions that affect all of us?

Do we really want a VP and potential President that tried to bann books from the public library when she gained office as mayor and then, tried to fire the librarian for refusing? I mean really now.

Granted, I haven't been impressed with McCain. Not an old fart who's biggest claim to fame is the fact that he is a war hero. Big fucking deal. I know many brave and valiant soldiers that served our country well that have ZERO business being a decision making elected official. That selling point won't even get me to buy a Buick. I wasn't impressed with McCain 6 months ago and I am less so now. I just purely don't think he's got what it takes. Let alone the health to stick it out.

That leads me to consider his choice of VP. The reality is McCain very well may not last 4 years. As a responsible citizen of this country I have to look ahead and consider his choice as running mate. Whether or not I was that person as President of my country. Quite honestly, no. I don't want ANYone that is that far to the right, that narrowminded in her personal belief system that she allows it to affect her executive decisions so strongly.

We need to get past the mindset that wants to ban books, criminalize our personal lifestyle choices, decide who or how many we can recide with/marry, how to make deeply moral personal decisions. We need a national leader that will focus on leading our nation, not meddling in our personal lives. Someone that will see the big picture world wide, not snoop around for reasons to blacklist the arts. Someone that has shown they have their own personal house in order rather than making a mockery of it in the tabloids.

So yes, I find the levels the republican party has stooped to, to pander to the religious conservative right, a humiliation to our country and the leaps and bounds we have fought for. The very freedoms we've pushed so hard to keep, are being endangered.

I just do not understand how a political party affiliation could blind people to the danger of their own personal freedoms.




kittinSol -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 7:46:09 AM)

I LOVED that bit:

"And Bristol Palin did nothing other than sin, which we all do. She is now managing her sin as prescribed by tradition."

Sin... How backward and medieval to apply the notion of 'sin' to a pregnancy out of wedlock. And how hubristic to think that God would ever get engulfed in these trivial considerations of mankind.

PS: Tigresse, I just read your post - great post.




cloudboy -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 7:48:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

What a load of absurd rationalization.



Its hard to wrap my mind around a talking point of TEEN PREGNANCY setting any kind or heroic example to the American electorate.




kittinSol -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 7:54:01 AM)

Especially since it's a phenomenon much derided by the party in question. It's a fantastic example of hypocrisy that they have managed to turn something they usually condemn, into an opportunity to exalt the bravery of the people concerned.

Yeah, right. It's fun, to become cynical and jaded: now everybody's turning into a bitter bastard, including ex idealists, but at least it levels the playing field.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 8:14:51 AM)

You, kitten (and cloudboy), are exactly the type of person on the left who doesn't "get it", I'm afraid. You are proving the author's point.

And you don't even have a vote in the matter!

Firm




LaTigresse -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 8:19:39 AM)

But I do, as do many that initially supported Hillary Clinton. Or might have even supported a more intelligent republican choice. People like me that have voted for republican presidents in the past but are appalled at choices the republicans have been making the last few years.




Moloch -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 8:19:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse



What matters to me.......No one that wants to make serious government decisions based upon religious faith has any business leading this country. The extreme right is just too bloody extreme. Haven't we work hard enough to have alternate lifestyle/sexuality choices accepted or at least tollerated? Do we really want someone with such an extreme point of view attempting to make decisions that affect all of us?



Quote for the win!!!




kittinSol -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 8:25:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

You, kitten (and cloudboy), are exactly the type of person on the left who doesn't "get it", I'm afraid. You are proving the author's point.



Oh, I get it alright, and I think cloudboy does too: just not in the way you wish we did :-) .





chiaThePet -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 8:25:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

What matters to me.......No one that wants to make serious government decisions based upon religious faith has any business leading this country.



Then we'd better throw them all out and start over, because I believe all the
candidates have expressed that their faith plays a role in their day to day
decision making. Shit, we're so out of time, chop chop everybody.

Ok, I'll start. I nominate Marilyn Manson for President.

Next?

chia* (the pet)




kittinSol -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 8:26:32 AM)

The only way to make a change is to realise there is a problem and to address it.




cloudboy -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 8:34:55 AM)

quote:

who doesn't "get it",


You got that right.

Palin and McCain should set great examples of 'family values.'

Although McCain suggested in his autobiography that months passed between his divorce and remarriage, the divorce was granted April 2, 1980, and he wed Hensley in a private ceremony five weeks later. McCain obtained an Arizona marriage license on March 6, 1980, while still legally married to his first wife.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 9:26:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

who doesn't "get it",


You got that right.

Palin and McCain should set great examples of 'family values.'

Although McCain suggested in his autobiography that months passed between his divorce and remarriage, the divorce was granted April 2, 1980, and he wed Hensley in a private ceremony five weeks later. McCain obtained an Arizona marriage license on March 6, 1980, while still legally married to his first wife.


FYI, "obtaining a marriage license" doesn't necessarily mean being or getting married at the time of issuance, depending on the state laws (and I don't know Arizona's, but I suspect you don't either).

In some states, "obtaining a marriage license" simply means getting the paperwork in anticipation of marriage, and doesn't become valid until it is correctly fulfilled and filed.

Nice try, though.

Firm




outlier -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 9:28:33 AM)

I don't see the quote in the OP as an argument FOR
I see it as an analysis of WHY others will vote the way they will.

As such I found it persuasive. I would not vote that way but I found
it interesting and I am glad it was posted.

Outlier









FirmhandKY -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 9:30:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

But I do, as do many that initially supported Hillary Clinton. Or might have even supported a more intelligent republican choice. People like me that have voted for republican presidents in the past but are appalled at choices the republicans have been making the last few years.


Generally, LaTigresse, while I disagree with your political positions, I have respect for your intelligence and your ability to state your position.

As you noticed, I did not mention you in the same company as kittin and cloudboy.

However, I guess the question that comes to my mind, is who, exactly, would you have had the Republicans pick, to get your support?

Firm




cloudboy -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 9:32:32 AM)

quote:

FYI, "obtaining a marriage license" doesn't necessarily mean being or getting married at the time of issuance, depending on the state laws (and I don't know Arizona's, but I suspect you don't either).

In some states, "obtaining a marriage license" simply means getting the paperwork in anticipation of marriage, and doesn't become valid until it is correctly fulfilled and filed.

Nice try, though.

Firm


I'm not "trying" anything. I'm just relieved, frankly, because when you live in a glass house, you can't be throwing any rocks. I'm hoping the McCain-Palin ticket neuters 'family values' and the culture war as campaign talking points. This ticket has too much to lose by going there....




cloudboy -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 9:35:35 AM)

quote:

Generally, LaTigresse, while I disagree with your political positions, I have respect for your intelligence and your ability to state your position.

As you noticed, I did not mention you in the same company as kittin and cloudboy.


Yes, we have a long demerit record with Firm. He's never forgiven me for tasking him about how the US could fund a muscular diplomacy and run a responsible fiscal budget.




LaTigresse -> RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" (9/3/2008 9:42:05 AM)

Therein lies the rub. I haven't seen anyone that I feel is on track with what this country needs now. It's like the republicans are stuck in a rut with blinders on. It is actually very frustrating to watch. Especially for people that prefer to ignore party and vote for a person and their individual ideas.

I know quite a few people that used to be die hard republicans that have begun to vote otherwise out of pure frustration. No, I am not nor have I ever been, but I tend to run with a diverse crowd. Scary I know....[:D]




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