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RE: B.C. Tours - 11/27/2005 6:18:39 PM

mnottertail

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Good Gawd!

I might have just come all over myself here, across the pond.
You better double-goddamn-believe that santa is a kinky little kringle......

HO!!! HO!!! HO!!!

Thank you for the best christmas, dark~angel, god bless us each and every one.

The Tiniest of Tims,
Ron

P.S. I feel so cheap, all I have given you are theories, based upon empirical evidence, with no prima facia fact attached....forgive me....

cryin' in my christmas beer.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 11/27/2005 6:21:36 PM >

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Post #: 21

RE: B.C. Tours - 11/28/2005 1:28:04 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

Especially when it's taught to children who have no defense.

Anthro - I do understand your concerns. But its up to the parents to make the decision to fight anything they do not like for their children. I also believe you need to give children more credit as they are in fact - not just children, but sentient beings - little you and mes - who are aware of their surroundings... you just need to spend a few weeks listening to one to find that out.
Take care

Peace and Love

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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Post #: 22

RE: B.C. Tours - 11/28/2005 5:04:51 AM

anthrosub

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In the long run, what I think or what you think really won't make any difference regarding how we pass on our habits to the next generation; it will continue to happen and changes will be slow and incremental over time. But once you see what's happening and been happening, you can't deny it's wrong for children to be imbued with information they cannot evaluate and are trusting the judgment of others as to its validity and benefit. This especially applies to their parents.

I do give children credit but I also know how beautifully innocent and trusting they can be. I have over two dozen nieces and nephews and have spent enough time around them to see your point but also mine. I am not hobbled in this regard.

anthrosub

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Post #: 23

RE: B.C. Tours - 11/28/2005 5:35:07 AM

LordODiscipline

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkangel
Evolution is only a proven scientific fact up to a point. Just like the existance of Jesus. Or Rome.

They have proof of the existence of Jesus - and, as for Rome... I have been there, so I am reasonably sure that it exists beyond the theory.

~J

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Post #: 24

RE: B.C. Tours - 11/28/2005 6:03:35 AM

LordODiscipline

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Not to 'piss in your wheaties' and ruin a good rant - but, everything that a child (and, most adults) learn is (in one way, or another) passed on without evidentiary proof being given to them of the absolutism of the information.

If this is what you are basing your happiness upon....

~J

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to anthrosub)

Post #: 25

RE: B.C. Tours - 11/28/2005 9:38:26 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

They have proof of the existence of Jesus - and, as for Rome... I have been there, so I am reasonably sure that it exists beyond the theory.

~J

That was my point, thank You, LoD... I bet Rome was wonderful!

quote:

passed on without evidentiary proof being given to them of the absolutism of the information.

I am a little confused about your usage of absolutism in regards to your statement? I maybe just being too word concious. or it could be because I am not american and there is a cultural link missing. Would you be kind as to help by explaining. Thanks in advance.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Post #: 26

RE: B.C. Tours - 11/28/2005 3:34:22 PM

anthrosub

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Joined: 6/2/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

Not to 'piss in your wheaties' and ruin a good rant - but, everything that a child (and, most adults) learn is (in one way, or another) passed on without evidentiary proof being given to them of the absolutism of the information.

If this is what you are basing your happiness upon....

~J

Quite true, which is exactly why children should not be exposed to things where it's given to them as if it IS an absolute. The people in that tour were not offering alternatives but literally stating that scientists have no proof at all of evolution.

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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Post #: 27

RE: B.C. Tours - 11/28/2005 4:19:13 PM

DemonAngel

Posts: 36
Joined: 5/1/2005
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quote:

Quite true, which is exactly why children should not be exposed to things where it's given to them as if it IS an absolute. The people in that tour were not offering alternatives but literally stating that scientists have no proof at all of evolution.

Maybe the tour is giving the children the alternative?You already said that they mentioned "Science would have us believe that an elephant can become a hippopatumus." He went on to say we all know that elephants have always been elephants and hippos have always been hippos and so on. '' So,maybe they were giving over their view to the children seeing as they had already stated what science teaches.I see little difference.
You say how can some people are ignorant of their existance.But the human race is one of the few species on the planet which is sentient.Being sentient means you are self aware so you must be aware of your existance.Therefore the whole point of people being ignorant of their existance is a false statement.And not very scientific.Science in itself doesn't give that awareness,and nor does faith nor belief.But creationism and evolution can sit very happily together.There are extremes in both camps that claim to have the only truth.My suggestion is that you don't get so wound up by the one you don't follow that you become ignorant to whats presented to you on a TV.My view is that it sound an extreme sure,but belief or faith hasn't just got to with living a good and right life.Its alot deeper than that.

quote:

'Passion is contained within us.It waits, It stirs,undemanded.It Whispers.ItShouts.ItGuides.Passion reigns over us all and we obey.It is the essence of our finest moments.The rapture of Love, the clarity of Malignity, the paroxysm of Grief...Without passion,we may have peace but inturn we would be hollow - vacant and void.'

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Post #: 28

RE: B.C. Tours - 11/28/2005 4:27:08 PM

anthrosub

Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonAngel

quote:

Quite true, which is exactly why children should not be exposed to things where it's given to them as if it IS an absolute. The people in that tour were not offering alternatives but literally stating that scientists have no proof at all of evolution.

Maybe the tour is giving the children the alternative?You already said that they mentioned "Science would have us believe that an elephant can become a hippopatumus." He went on to say we all know that elephants have always been elephants and hippos have always been hippos and so on. '' So,maybe they were giving over their view to the children seeing as they had already stated what science teaches.I see little difference.
You say how can some people are ignorant of their existance.But the human race is one of the few species on the planet which is sentient.Being sentient means you are self aware so you must be aware of your existance.Therefore the whole point of people being ignorant of their existance is a false statement.And not very scientific.Science in itself doesn't give that awareness,and nor does faith nor belief.But creationism and evolution can sit very happily together.There are extremes in both camps that claim to have the only truth.My suggestion is that you don't get so wound up by the one you don't follow that you become ignorant to whats presented to you on a TV.My view is that it sound an extreme sure,but belief or faith hasn't just got to with living a good and right life.Its alot deeper than that.

quote:

'Passion is contained within us.It waits, It stirs,undemanded.It Whispers.ItShouts.ItGuides.Passion reigns over us all and we obey.It is the essence of our finest moments.The rapture of Love, the clarity of Malignity, the paroxysm of Grief...Without passion,we may have peace but inturn we would be hollow - vacant and void.'

I understand your point but to tell children science has no proof of evolution is pretty absurd and an outright lie.

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to DemonAngel)

Post #: 29

RE: B.C. Tours - 11/28/2005 4:40:39 PM

DemonAngel

Posts: 36
Joined: 5/1/2005
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quote:

I understand your point but to tell children science has no proof of evolution is pretty absurd and an outright lie.

anthrosub

Like I said,there are extremes on both sides.Some communities and groups would say that science disproves creationalism,which is pretty absurb and an outright lie as well.But it happens.We just have to teach our children not to believe in one or the other,but show them that they have the freedom to choose whats right for them.No matter how ignorant or absurb we view the lie they believe.

quote:

'Passion is contained within us.It waits, It stirs,undemanded.It Whispers.ItShouts.ItGuides.Passion reigns over us all and we obey.It is the essence of our finest moments.The rapture of Love, the clarity of Malignity, the paroxysm of Grief...Without passion,we may have peace but inturn we would be hollow - vacant and void.'

_____________________________

Demon

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Post #: 30

RE: B.C. Tours - 11/29/2005 7:02:11 PM

LordODiscipline

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Joined: 6/28/2004
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We do not offer alternatives to many things... including mathematics, history, etc.... things are offered in easily recognizable shapes and colors... things which do not confuse youngsters, yet stimiluate the mind.

Expectations that this is to change in any manner shape or form from our discussion here on this posting board shall be a summary disappointment.

That is reality... pissing in the wind does not change that.

Personally -

I raised my children to be independant thinkers.

You may not like what others say, but they do say it - often - and, in the schools and churches and playgrounds and etc.

If you desire to change that... do so...

I did through the school boards and through my children's ability to discern truth... to ascertain uncertainties and to see conjecture in the means that people expressed themselves.

But simply talking about it (no matter how good it might make you feel) does not change anything.

Think. Plan. Act.

~J

PS: Imagaine me raising others like me...? Pretty scarey thought. And, they are 'out there' in the world!

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

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Post #: 31

RE: B.C. Tours - 11/29/2005 7:09:12 PM

LordODiscipline

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Joined: 6/28/2004
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Rome is wonderful... and, it never really changes, except now they have a Napoli Pizza near Gucci. (best pizza in Itali, and the worst priced jewlery on one street)

'Absolutism' in this instance denotes any sort of religious theory, social conjecture or scientific study under which the stater declares everything might be discerned through a careful study. It is a very old term which has a secondary consideration of bluster and falseness by simply stating something as "absolute" -

Few things in life are absolute... although some people have given me a shoulder equivalent to a -473 degrees.

~J

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 32

RE: B.C. Tours - 11/29/2005 9:44:23 PM

kisshou

Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

I understand your point but to tell children science has no proof of evolution is pretty absurd and an outright lie.

anthrosub

So, when you were little no one told you there was a Easter bunny or a tooth fairy? Unmentionables are lied to daily on a wide variety of topics with the justification of it being for their own good. Then one day they evolve into aliens (teenagers) and question everything they were ever told. Such is the price of freedom.

(in reply to anthrosub)

Post #: 33

RE: B.C. Tours - 11/29/2005 10:09:17 PM

mnottertail

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Again, and I don't mind....I stand in the end of the que....

Fuck this asswipe called jesus,
Fuck this asswipe called evolution.
Consider Odin, the God of confusion and war......now there's something to sink your teeth into, fuck the missing link.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 34

RE: B.C. Tours - 12/1/2005 3:07:10 AM

SadistDave

Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

This is simplistic, I believe in Odin the one eyed, God of confusion and war, and one of many. Why? because it is a theory I have and a fact based on empirical evidence I see......Hug a tree......everone else is wrong that considers Y'shua Ha' Notz'ri (joshua (not Jesus for christs sake)) other than a mediocre rabbi as historically recorded.

Ron: Voluspa 17-18 & Havamal 10. In that order; please and thank you.

-SD-

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Post #: 35

RE: B.C. Tours - 12/1/2005 9:05:40 AM

DesertRat

Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Again, and I don't mind....I stand in the end of the que....

Fuck this asswipe called jesus,
Fuck this asswipe called evolution.
Consider Odin, the God of confusion and war......now there's something to sink your teeth into, fuck the missing link.

I like this view of things because it gets you completely out of the road. While you're off sinking your teeth into something, scientific knowledge continues to move forward. Reminds me of the so called Dark Ages.

Bob

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Post #: 36

RE: B.C. Tours - 12/1/2005 12:11:29 PM

AAkasha

Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

In the long run, what I think or what you think really won't make any difference regarding how we pass on our habits to the next generation; it will continue to happen and changes will be slow and incremental over time. But once you see what's happening and been happening, you can't deny it's wrong for children to be imbued with information they cannot evaluate and are trusting the judgment of others as to its validity and benefit. This especially applies to their parents.

I do give children credit but I also know how beautifully innocent and trusting they can be. I have over two dozen nieces and nephews and have spent enough time around them to see your point but also mine. I am not hobbled in this regard.

anthrosub

I'm curious what you think about people who have deep spiritual beliefs in the bible, jesus christ, the whole nine yards --- who are all extremely intelligent, well read, arguably brilliant scientists or biologists or philosophy professors?

Athiests often bring up the santa claus analogy..or how religion (or christianity for example) are really no more than fairy tales and fables. If you hold respect for those that are more intelligent than you -- or more well read on the matter -- is it so easy to say "it's all a bunch of baloney?"

I tend to fall back on "I know what I don't know" when it comes to making evaluations of what the validity of things are when I know there are people that know far more about topics than I do -- like theology, philosophy, biology and evolution. But what can you say about people who are of extremely high intelligence that have not abandoned deep faith, despite the evidence in front of them? Do you call them stupid, or ignorant? What is it that is so compelling to them that they hang on to their faith, even though you know, as human beings, they, too, have thought long and hard about faith vs. science?

You can't argue that you know more than they do; someone, or many people, *are* more educated than you are, both booksmart and pure wisdom. The thing is, you don't see them talking illiteralely on TV and having rallies and making dumb statements. They hold a quiet faith and don't preach.

Akasha

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Post #: 37

RE: B.C. Tours - 12/1/2005 1:56:59 PM

SadistDave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Again, and I don't mind....I stand in the end of the que....

Fuck this asswipe called jesus,
Fuck this asswipe called evolution.
Consider Odin, the God of confusion and war......now there's something to sink your teeth into, fuck the missing link.

I like this view of things because it gets you completely out of the road. While you're off sinking your teeth into something, scientific knowledge continues to move forward. Reminds me of the so called Dark Ages.

Bob

Would that be the same Dark Ages that was supressing innovations in science and suppressing womens rights in the name of God?

Norse cultures were much more forward thinking than most people realize. Socially, they were more advanced than most people of their time, and while their scientific innovations were largely restricted to martial and maritime invention, they were astoundingly adept at the adaptation of whatever technology the encountered. Ironicly, the Norse peoples adopted Christianity as a means to advance their society in the larger European community at a time when virtually all of the countries they encountered were firmly under the Papal thumb.

There is an interesting historical parallel that can be seen with the Dark Ages and the rise of the Christian cult. Indeed, as Christianity gained popularity in the ancient world, their influence caused a social and scientific growth to grind to a halt for many centuries. With Jesus, came ignorance.

This is apparently the aim of this latest Intelligent Design attack which is threatening our culture now. ID theories will bring on a new Dark Age if they are allowed to run unfettered through our schools. Abandoning science to unfounded and irresponsible faith based ideals will not benefit anyone.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to flesh this out more or I will be late for an appointment, but I would like to mention that Asatu, the remnants of the Norse poytheistic faith, is recognized in the United States as a legal and valid religion. In Asatru can be found the Norse beliefs of the origins of Man. Ie: Intelligent Design.

-SD-

< Message edited by SadistDave -- 12/1/2005 2:00:10 PM >

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Post #: 38

RE: B.C. Tours - 12/1/2005 2:14:42 PM

DesertRat

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Yes, those very same Dark Ages. I was not speaking in praise of those times. My point was that, in spite of suppression and a general retreat into ignorance (something we are seeing anew in American popular culture), scientific knowledge continued to advance. It just keeps going, no matter what people think of it.

If everybody chooses to believe that maggots spontaneously appear on dead horse carcasses, that doesn't make it true. The truth isn't something we can vote on. It just is.

Note: I'm not taking issue with your points. I agree with what you say. Just wanted to make sure it's understood I am not enjoying this willful return to ignorance.

Bob

< Message edited by DesertRat -- 12/1/2005 2:17:14 PM >

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Post #: 39

RE: B.C. Tours - 12/1/2005 5:44:50 PM

kisshou

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The point you are making about a retreat into ignorance is very astute and should be a topic in its own right. It is something I ponder often. I do not think that people want to become sheep just blindly following it is more that there it too much information thrown at people nowadays, it is overwhelming and so leads to a retreat from wanting to know anything that we have no personal control over. I could go on at length but don't want to hijack anthros OP.

(in reply to DesertRat)

Post #: 40

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