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Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 1:12:39 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		I found this following quotes while cruising around the web today.

quote:

Codependence is characterized by dependence on outer or external sources for self-worth and self-definition.  This outer or external dependence, combined with unhealed childhood emotional wounds which get reactivated/gouged whenever an emotional “button” is pushed, cause the Codependent to live life in reaction to, give power over self-esteem to, outside sources.   


quote:

Codependence is about giving away power over our self-esteem. Taking our self-definition and self-worth from outside or external sources is dysfunctional because it causes us to give power over how we feel about ourselves to people and forces which we cannot control. Any time that we give power over our self-esteem to something outside of ourselves we are making that person or thing our higher power. We are worshiping false gods. If my self-esteem is based on people, places, and things; money, property, and prestige; looks, talent, intelligence; then I am set up to be a victim. People will not always do what I want them too; property can be destroyed by an earthquake or flood or fire; money can disappear in a stock market crash or bad investment; looks change as I get older. Everything changes. All outside or external conditions are temporary.   


Now if we look around the boards at the words of so many here, it is rather common for an "s" type to look to a "D" type (an external source) to define themselves and provide them with or elevate their self-esteem/worth. "My Master says that to him I am a slave and that is all I have to worry about". It is rather common that we see "s" types searching for a "D" type to help them with their unresolved past issues and abuse. Of course we also see "D" types who seem to define themselves and garner much of their self worth from the "need" of their "s" type, their role (not roleplay) as their portector and keeper.

It would seem that codependency is a common theme in relationships here....and if you look at it from some angles it almost seems that it is an integral part of power exchange relationships....and it makes me wonder if such relationships could survive if there was absolutely no codependent component. Thoughts?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"
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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 1:27:34 PM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline 		Codependency is, unfortunately, an extremely common theme in many relationships, placing all of one's reason for happiness in the hands of another. It's smothering, manipulative, and incredibly exhausting. The other unfortunate thing is that many (most?) codependents don't see their own behavior for what it is and create their own trauma by not allowing the object of their affection breathe a little, by clinging, and by manipulating the other person to keep their own self-esteem intact whenever they perceive a slight.

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 1:30:34 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		Codependency happens in alot of relationships, not just those within BDSM/D/s/M/s.

I don't see it as a bad thing though; everyone is somewhat dependent upon their partner for something within the relationship.

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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 1:32:07 PM   
yourMissTress


Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Now if we look around the boards at the words of so many here, it is rather common for an "s" type to look to a "D" type (an external source) to define themselves and provide them with or elevate their self-esteem/worth. "My Master says that to him I am a slave and that is all I have to worry about". It is rather common that we see "s" types searching for a "D" type to help them with their unresolved past issues and abuse. Of course we also see "D" types who seem to define themselves and garner much of their self worth from the "need" of their "s" type, their role (not roleplay) as their portector and keeper.

It would seem that codependency is a common theme in relationships here....and if you look at it from some angles it almost seems that it is an integral part of power exchange relationships....and it makes me wonder if such relationships could survive if there was absolutely no codependent component. Thoughts?


There are codependent people in every type of relationship.  It may be more common to see here because we spend some more time here discussing our relationships, their inner workings, and sometimes every nook and cranny of our psyche.  It may simply be more evident because some bare their very souls to get their point across.  And it may be that we have more codependent people in WIITWD.
 
I don't think any relationship can survive if the partners involved are not somewhat dependent on each other.  We depend on our S.O.s to be there for us when we need them, even if it's only to spend time together having dinner, walking the dog, or answering the phone in the middle of a long work day.  If we wanted to be completely independent, we would have no other people in our lives. 
 
The line I bolded, I see that response as a reference to a label.  Not a reference to self esteem or worth, please explain if I missed your point.
 
Also, can you give some examples of the angles you mentioned in the line I blued?



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"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother


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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 1:37:45 PM   
Kalista07


Posts: 4240
Joined: 7/1/2007
Status: offline 		i am somewhat of an extremist. Meaning that, i tend to go from one extreme to another. One of the most difficult issues about this relationship has been identifying and working on my issues of independence.  i've been in such codependent relationships previously that i'm sure to some extent for some people i would've made the perfect slave. But, He does not desire me to get my self worth from Him, or my value as a person from this relationship, or my self assurance from the fact that i'm in a relationship. Honestly, i don't think i could be in a relationship with someone who did desire that. Currently, i'm struggling to let go of some of that independence due to being in a major car accident. i recognize that i've gone a bit over the edge on being self sufficient, and the ideal healthy view for me is to find some amount of inter-dependence. By, that i mean i guess my preference would be for us both to become used to being able to depend on the other person for something. However, also knowing full well that we can and will survive if that other person isn't able or willing to fulfill that need. In my mind, the healthies D/s or M/s relationship would be one that is void of codependence.
Kali


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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 1:46:45 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		For me codependency made me responsible for the happiness of my (ex-)husband and kids. If they were unhappy or upset, it was my job to make them happy. And goddess forbid, if one of them screwed up in decisionmaking!

It took me a  long three years in therapy to enable me to see my role in the codependency in our family. And stand back and allow my kids and ex screw up and trust that they could get themselves out of their situations. If they asked for help - i'd give it to them - exactly what they asked for - and no more, and no suggestions.

Since then, i truly believe that we end up in relationships that give us what we are looking for. With my ex i needed someone to help and try to make happy. In my current relationship, i have a Sir who is aware that i cannot make him happy, that happiness is something that you find within yourself. We have a very mature relationship - we are independently strong and satisfied people - together we are even better, because we want each other, not need each other.  My Sir does not complete me, i complete myself - he is more the icing on the cake, not the cake.

If we were to break up tomorrow, i would be hurt and upset, but not devistated, not suicidal and would not fall apart.  I would move back to my house, do my mourning, and go on.

I think that there are a lot of people that perhaps think that they need someone to complete them - that if someone else could nurture them, they would be happy and healed - but i really think  this is a false thought. I think to gain this sort of insight and healing you need an impersonal relationship that is caring and theraputic. I am not sure that you  can get this in a bdsm or vanilla relationship - because there is always an ulteria motive - it may not be overt - it may be so covert that the other person may not be aware of it, but it cannot be unbiased.

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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 1:56:23 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		I dont see anything wrong with that, I thinka  lot of people gain self confidence when in relationships "someone loves me" if that makes me codependant then so be it, but its not just within this lifestyle its all relationships. Also i think getting confidence and valuing their opinion over all others doesnt mean that there is no confidence outside the relationship, i dont think anyone can say that having somone love them doesnt make them feel better as a person

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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 2:08:19 PM   
kiwisub12


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Status: offline 		The problem is , is that the feeling good only lasts as long as the other person continues to praise or love them.   If the relationship ends badly, the self confidence and self esteem goes south. It isn't lasting, it is conditional on someone loving them.  they have to find someone else to love them to feel good again.  Thats pretty much the definition of codependency.
A healthy person feels good about themself wheither they are in a loving relationship or not.


And yes - having someone love you is definitely icing on the cake!

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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 2:12:31 PM   
yourMissTress


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From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

I dont see anything wrong with that, I thinka  lot of people gain self confidence when in relationships "someone loves me" if that makes me codependant then so be it, but its not just within this lifestyle its all relationships. Also i think getting confidence and valuing their opinion over all others doesnt mean that there is no confidence outside the relationship, i dont think anyone can say that having somone love them doesnt make them feel better as a person


The problem would be if a person had no self confidence outside of the relationship.  If a person valued the opinions and thoughts of another more than they valued their own opinions and thoughts, what would happen to them when the relationship was over? 

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"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother


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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 2:22:24 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		I see your point. I think that it is possible to be in a bdsm/sm/ds relationship without a core of co-dependency, but it requires truly healthy people, who are honest about why they are getting into the relationship and what they expect to get out of it. I tend to call the unhealthy version of interaction you're talking about 'co-dependency', and the healthier version practiced by self-aware, stable people "interdependence".

There are a couple of things in the OP that I particularly wanted to comment on.

quote:

"My Master says that to him I am a slave and that is all I have to worry about".


To me, this isn't a 'self-esteem-issue' comment. Now, if the person said "I feel horrible about myself all the time, unless my Master tells me that I'm ok." -that-, to me, is a self-esteem issue. The first is just a matter of names... what am I called... the second is an issue of valuation -- the person honestly believes that xhe has no value unless Master says so -- and if Master gets pissed, or chooses not to validate hir... well that day (or week or month or whatever) is going to seriously -suck-.

A healthy submissive defines hirself through recognition of what xhe brings to the world on hir own merits, and what xhe brings to a relationship. Xhe understands hirself and hir needs, and does not apologize for them. Xhe does hir best to see that hir needs are met in the relationships xhe is in, and while xhe may yield authority, xhe never yields her self-respect... while xhe may yield her energy, xhe is an active part of the relationship process, not simply an appendage defined by the active principle in the relationship. Xhe is interdependent -- as is the healthy dominant to whom xhe answers, regardless of how the relationship is labeled.

I'd also like to comment on the "needy dominant". For myself, I tend to question the 'dominant' nature of the needy but bossy individual, who takes hir definition of hirself from having another person under subjugation. To me, the dominant person knows hirself -- xhe does not define hirself through the person or persons xhe 'owns' or 'keeps' or 'controls'.... and isn't "lost" if xhe's not dominating someone all the time. This isn't to say that xhe doesn't appreciate a life yielded to hir authority -- but xhe doesn't depend on it for hir self-worth, either. There are a good number of the healthy version of dominants around.

In my mind, unhealthy co-dependence is not a prerequisite for a bdsm relationship -- but interdependence is required for all healthy relationships including bdsm relationships.

Calla Firestorm

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 2:25:39 PM   
Prinsexx


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Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin


It would seem that codependency is a common theme in relationships here....and if you look at it from some angles it almost seems that it is an integral part of power exchange relationships....and it makes me wonder if such relationships could survive if there was absolutely no codependent component. Thoughts?

yes; excellent post.
i am co-dependent in my relationship with my Master.
i am dependent upon Him for instructions on many things. I am dependent upon His approval, and His love, i am dependent upon pleasing Him and having Him as my source of referral for physical feelings of safety, physical pleasure, emotional satidfaction. I am dependent upon my Master to fulfill my needs to serve, for reward upon service (or not), for encouragement, for approval.
i cannot speak for Him, so i won't make any attempt to state what i believe are His co-dependencies upon me.
However: i do believe that i am an ascribed slave; in other words i came packaged like this at birth and it has been a lifelong journey discovering the depth and width of my service. In theory i believe at least that an Owner cannot be an owner unless he has property. So one of my assumptions is that my Master feels proud and is dependent for that feeling of pride upon owning me as property. i will ask Him.
Anyway; it simply means that i now have a different working definition of the term co-dependent. i have always felt that co-dependency is part of the natural order of things both in humanity and the animal world. groups who behave co-dependently actually are stronger for it; armies, bureaucracies, herds, fleets, gaggles....(add group nouns infinitum).
i also believe it is an arrogance of mainstream psychological theory to place negative connotations upon the state of co-dependency when evidence in the real world suggests otherwise.
How many people are co-dependent on the existence of (their0 God for example?
It's about time psychology got with the spirtual....co-dependency works for me and indeed for members of my household.
Thus endeth the rant.
Prin xx

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 9/3/2008 2:27:25 PM >

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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 2:34:40 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW


In my mind, unhealthy co-dependence is not a prerequisite for a bdsm relationship -- but interdependence is required for all healthy relationships including bdsm relationships.

Calla Firestorm

i'd really like the negative connotations of co-dependency to shift within the mainstream of approaches. and whilst i accept the term interdependency, why do i always feel i have to justify myself as an individual and as a professional when faced with non-falsifiable definitions and traits that only serve to undermine and destabilise?
It's all very well all and sundry jumping on the co-dependency is bad band wagon but in reality in the near words of a favourite meditation:
no person is an island entire and whole unto themselves.
i'd go so far as to say that i am not just co-dependent but emotionally conjoined. My sense of well-being is ever more determined by His sense of well-being and my abilities to serve and promote that.

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 9/3/2008 2:35:20 PM >

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 2:35:31 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: batshalom

Codependency is, unfortunately, an extremely common theme in many relationships, placing all of one's reason for happiness in the hands of another. It's smothering, manipulative, and incredibly exhausting. The other unfortunate thing is that many (most?) codependents don't see their own behavior for what it is and create their own trauma by not allowing the object of their affection breathe a little, by clinging, and by manipulating the other person to keep their own self-esteem intact whenever they perceive a slight.

This is so true.  I think that might be where part of the problem lies.  They don't see the co-dependency, obsession, compulsion and other behaviors. Instead, they think they are just fine and everyone else is the problem.  This can be the case even though an outsider looking in can easily identify certain patterns.  It's always easier to examine other people's issues than your own. 

On the core issue, I know that for Myself, I need to keep My life full.  To find balance, even if I'm tempted to lean too far in one direction or another. 
A new person in My life isn't the end all, be all of anything.  I wouldn't be who I am without having all of those external factors in My life anyway.


_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 2:45:33 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I think we are both a little codependent. But because we both look to the other for love, and we give as much as we getm, it isn't in an unhappy way.

If I was totally independent, didn't need him in any way, then small things like him leaving dirty socks all over would bug me enormously. As it is, I just put out an extra pop up hamper where they tend to gather and forget about it.

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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 2:46:10 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

i'd really like the negative connotations of co-dependency to shift within the mainstream of approaches. and whilst i accept the term interdependency, why do i always feel i have to justify myself as an individual and as a professional when faced with non-falsifiable definitions and traits that only serve to undermine and destabilise?
It's all very well all and sundry jumping on the co-dependency is bad band wagon but in reality in the near words of a favourite meditation:
no person is an island entire and whole unto themselves.
i'd go so far as to say that i am not just co-dependent but emotionally conjoined. My sense of well-being is ever more determined by His sense of well-being and my abilities to serve and promote that.


I, too, would like to see the negative connotations disappear, but over the years, despite the attempt to do so, people with whom I am working still see 'co-dependent' as negative, and no matter how many times one tries to correct the perception, the message gets lost in the word. In the same way, it is unlikely that the world will ever accept the word "obese" as something good -- so using that term when referring to someone, even in a way that is encouraging that person to "reclaim" the negative word and turn it into something positive, the message gets lost in dwelling on the word.

I don't want my clients to have to spend hours and hours questioning whether or not I see them as something "unhealthy" because I said that they were "codependent" on a loved one when in a relationship... so I use language that is non-threatening, but that will open up the opportunity for the person to explore a relationship honestly. To do that, I accept that they typically perceive "co-dependent" as an unhealthy situation, and I use "interdependent" as a word-model for the healthy, productive, and individuality-respecting relationship that they are coming to me to figure out how to build.

I've had a few folks come back to me and say "you know, I really think that I like 'co-dependent', and I'm just going to apply that word to my healthy relationship." I've said the same thing myself, and on a purely personal level, I'll often use co-dependent and interdependent interchangeably. However, when speaking to others who don't share that vocabulary-stream, I think that it is -really- important to make sure that we use words that emphasize the goal, rather than dicking around with whether or not we, as professionals, have the luxury of reclaiming words for our clients that they may or may not have any interest in reclaiming for themselves. After all, the time my clients spend with me in pastoral care is about getting them to a point where they are secure in their lives or whatever other goal they have for their time... it isn't about me or my goals. I feel that if I have to spend a half-hour defending my choice of words, it isn't about them anymore -- it's about me and my ego issues.

Calla Firestorm


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 2:52:02 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: yourMissTress
The line I bolded, I see that response as a reference to a label.  Not a reference to self esteem or worth, please explain if I missed your point.
 
Also, can you give some examples of the angles you mentioned in the line I blued?


Sorry that took so long but Sir came in and he was HUNGRY! LOL

In the first line I was just giving one rather narrow and limited example of how I see submissives allowing themselves to be defined by their Dominants..certainly not just in the "label"...but in who or what they perceive they are.

In the blue text, I was referencing some trains of thought I was having along the lines of some of the typical things we see in power exchange relationships. How we do give ourselves over to the control of the dominant. How we do look to them as a source of strength. How their interactions with us do have an impact on the way we view ourselves and the value we place upon ourselves.


_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 3:01:22 PM   
rawkmehard


Posts: 43
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		"In my current relationship, i have a Sir who is aware that i cannot make him happy, that happiness is something that you find within yourself. We have a very mature relationship - we are independently strong and satisfied people - together we are even better, because we want each other, not need each other.  My Sir does not complete me, i complete myself - he is more the icing on the cake, not the cake." (quote from kiwisub12 but i didn't do the fancy quote thingy)

that is exactly what i seek in my relationships NOW...but had i not gone through a completely unhealthy codependent relationship, i never would have had the ability to stand back, look at it, and figure out what patterns i need to break.

i love the term interdependence, because i think that's really the goal of relationships. sure, sometimes the balance of dependence isn't equal-but that's part of the point of power exchange in general.  the exchange happens in a loop-from submissive to dominant and vice versa. 

let me just say, it happens in non-kink oriented relationships too...but i agree that because a lot of us are really deep into trying to understand the ins and outs of our relationships, we tend to become more self-aware over time. well, i do, anyway. YMMV.

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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 3:08:39 PM   
mistoferin


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Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		I also think that many people view codependency as a dysfunctional relationship issue. While codependency can certainly impact a relationship, it is not in and of itself a relationship issue. It is an issue with self that becomes an issue in the relationships we have. Also from the same web site, I really liked how they put it:

quote:



Codependence is about having a dysfunctional relationship with self!

With our own bodies, minds, emotions, and spirits.

With our own gender and sexuality.

With being human.

Because we have dysfunctional relationships internally 

we have dysfunctional relationships externally.


< Message edited by mistoferin -- 9/3/2008 3:09:28 PM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 3:26:27 PM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: yourMissTress

The problem would be if a person had no self confidence outside of the relationship.  If a person valued the opinions and thoughts of another more than they valued their own opinions and thoughts, what would happen to them when the relationship was over? 


Which is why i clarified my response by saying it doesnt always mean that, I believe i feel better about certain aspects of myself when I am in a relationship that doesnt mean I am a quivering wreck outside of them, quite the opposite. In relationships we do get something from the other person i dont mean material i mean emotional and mental otherwise why would we all covert a good relationship if we got nothing out of them we wouldnt care

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I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

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RE: Codependency and this lifestyle - 9/3/2008 3:32:30 PM   
yourMissTress


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From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Sorry that took so long but Sir came in and he was HUNGRY! LOL

In the first line I was just giving one rather narrow and limited example of how I see submissives allowing themselves to be defined by their Dominants..certainly not just in the "label"...but in who or what they perceive they are.

In the blue text, I was referencing some trains of thought I was having along the lines of some of the typical things we see in power exchange relationships. How we do give ourselves over to the control of the dominant. How we do look to them as a source of strength. How their interactions with us do have an impact on the way we view ourselves and the value we place upon ourselves.



Thank you for clarifying those two points.  I agree with you on the first point.  When the *s*'s entire self definition is solely reliant on the definition that their D has given them. In which case they would be nothing without their D to tell them so, this is an unhealthy form of codependency.
 
The lines in blue...a sub giving over their control is not necessarily releasing themselves from having any independent thoughts or feelings or hanging the weight of their self worth on the dominant.  Self esteem and self worth come from doing, trying, learning, and accomplishing the things we value.  If pleasing a dominant is what is valued, the sub in question can garner self esteem from the actual pleasing of the D, or from the approval given by the D.  And here lies the difference between healthy interdependence and unhealthy codependence.
 
Is it knowing that you have accomplished that which you set out to do that gives your self esteem a boost, and the pat on the head is the icing on the cake?  Or is it the pat on the head the cake?
 

_____________________________

Tress


"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother


(in reply to mistoferin)
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