RE: Is this dominance to you?

RE: Is this dominance to you? (Full Version)

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mistoferin -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 8:31:08 AM)
FR~ The utterance of a safeword IS withdrawal of consent and negates any previous agreement. I find it interesting that some folks seem to be disconnected from the fact that M/s dynamics still reside smack dab in the middle of a larger society...one where EVERY human being has rights, one where there are police officers, jails, courtrooms, victim impact statements and prisons.

RCdc -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 8:35:33 AM)
Absolutely Erin - everyone has rights. And that s-type in the scenario has the right to leave. The right to report the assault. But as people we have no right to interfere - particularly when that scenario could be any one of a number of examples. It's too vague. Is it dominance. No. But then, even if the scene when through absolutely without problems. Or, even if the safeword was used and the scene stopped, I would not call it dominance anyway. the.dark.

IrishMist -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 8:35:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin FR~ The utterance of a safeword IS withdrawal of consent and negates any previous agreement. I find it interesting that some folks seem to be disconnected from the fact that M/s dynamics still reside smack dab in the middle of a larger society...one where EVERY human being has rights, one where there are police officers, jails, courtrooms, victim impact statements and prisons. No, not disconnected ...just...not in agreement. BUT, my disagreement stems from the FACT that I view relationships of this kind differently than you do. AND, that's really not a bad thing [:)]

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 8:37:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 leadership527...i hear you. you're just getting an idea of where everyone stands. as for the issue of consent and harm, yes i suppose one's personal ethics will govern their feelings on such a topic. my own ethics say that it is unethical for a slave to willfully disobey her Master. perhaps there could be some grave, extreme circumstsance where the disobedience would be understood, or perhaps even warranted, but the decision to disobey one's Owner is still unethical. in the scenario you posed, we don't know whether her Master commanded her to find a baby and eat it's brains, or go fix a cheese sandwich, as another poster mentioned. we only know that for some unclear reason, she chose to disobey. you called this revoking consent. well let's put aside the fact that the slavery in which i live and understand does not allow for a slave to revoke consent. if this is indeed what she is doing, something that will shake the foundation of the entire relationship...then why is she doing it seemingly in the heat of the moment over one incident, why is there not some calm discussion taking place at the appropriate time? it just doesn't make sense to me. but if you don't mind, i'm more interested in why you feel the way you do about such a scenario...in your eyes, what is the grave offense the Dominant has committed, what has occured so atrocious that it would warrant police interference, and why is the submissive seemingly innocent? as someone who has been a slave for 8 yrs come this october, and understands that this is not an easy path and that sometimes a Master may push a girl to the breaking point and at the time it may feel like it will be impossible to bear it, but always, always the Master is there to show you that you can....and knowing that you are in a M/s dynamic as well, one without the accessories of BDSM, just as we are...just how and why is the scenario as you have described it so troubling? I reviewed the OP, to make sure that I was responding properly to this... prop, what everyone is getting up-in-arms about isn't the disobedience and whether or not that constitutes "removal of consent". What they're getting upset about and making these judgments based on is this section from the OP: quote: The dominant then proceeds to corporal punishment. The submissive starts crying and screaming for him to stop, including uttering whatever passes for safe words if any exist. The dominant, at this point, ups the intensity of the corporal punishment The submissive tries to get away, but cannot The issue at hand is that the dominant party did not stop when the submissive party used a safeword. My issue with this, all along, is that it is never made clear how the safeword is considered in this relationship. As I spelled out -very- clearly in an earlier post, there are relationships where the submissive party is told at the very beginning of the relationship that the safeword -will- be ignored during punishment, and even if it is used, it will be ignored. If this was agreed to in advance, how can people come back later and say "Oh, well, it doesn't matter. If the safeword is used, even if it is used in a way that wasn't agreed to, it has to be obeyed." For myself, if a servant safe-worded in this kind of situation, I -would- stop. Then again, "ummm, stop." IS a safeword for me. So is "I don't like this" or "I can't do this any more." They might find that the relationship was over, but I would stop the action. However, I spend too much time counseling people who have different rules to -ever- believe that it is ok to apply MY rules to someone else's relationship, and that is what I see happening here. I see a lot of people who are making snap judgements without knowing all the information, and are using those snap judgements based on their own opinions to justify interference in another person's relationship. NOW, that being said, I have had people outside of a relationship come to me and ask me to check on something happening with friends of theirs, because they think that something may be going on that is unsafe or unhealthy. I've reported domestic abuse masquerading as D/s or M/s, and I've helped abused individuals to get into safe-houses or shelters when they couldn't get out of an abusive relationship on their own. However, without understanding the foundation of what was agreed to in a relationship, one cannot judge. If someone calls the authorities on a relationship that they see as abusive, and there is -any- visible or accessible item that might, in the closed minds of the law, constitute probable cause, then regardless of whether this was a miscommunication or a real case of abuse, the Top is going to go to jail, and will likely be convicted of a crime, because in the United States, there is NO SUCH THING AS CONSENT TO ASSAULT OR BATTERY. Therefore, by not understanding the possible extenuating circumstances and jumping to conclusions, a situation that -may- be fixable becomes a virtual guarantee to ruin someone's life. I believe that, as a community that supposedly chooses to live doing WIITWD and expects others to respect our choices, we have an ethical responsibility to NOT jump to conclusions -- to act as mediators where we can, and to discover, through thorough examination, whether or not there is an actual -crime- being committed. If some of us are not willing to do that, those individuals, IMO, should mind their own business, lest they make the capacity to live with WIITWD more difficult for everyone else. Ok, that's my rant. Calla Firestorm

daddysprop247 -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 8:38:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin FR~ The utterance of a safeword IS withdrawal of consent and negates any previous agreement. I find it interesting that some folks seem to be disconnected from the fact that M/s dynamics still reside smack dab in the middle of a larger society...one where EVERY human being has rights, one where there are police officers, jails, courtrooms, victim impact statements and prisons. so erin, in all ways, you govern your life according to the laws and mores of society at large? you allow the law to dictate what type of relationship you have, what type of sexual activities you engage in (and the gender of your sexual partners), and the values and ethics you live by? also, it doesn't seem strange to you that 1. a slave would have a safeword, and 2. a submissive/slave would safeword in the middle of a punishment? i'm certainly no expert on the subject, but aren't safewords typically reserved for "play" and "scening"? i know that you do not agree with punishment dynamics, but i'm sure that even you would see the futility of a punishment structure where the submissive could simply safeword out?

MzDeadlyRed -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 8:47:19 AM)
In some cases, if not most, safewords are not permitted during punishment. If she controls the punishment is it really punishment? Let's look at the big picture. I found an interesting article on pain and it's necessary place in a D/s M/s relationship. I've posted links as well. Enjoy. It came from www.humbledfemales.com Pain The Helpful Enemy By Sharon R. Aristotle said, “We cannot learn without pain.” When I reflect upon this as a submissive female, I agree. Generally, it's accepted that most of the important lessons in life must be learned “the hard way,” which almost always involves some sort of pain. For the female, pain plays a more significant role. Pain is at the threshold of many of the milestones in her life. When her virginity is lost, it is usually accompanied by pain. Her monthly cycle is usually less than comfortable, and bearing children can be extremely painful. Sometimes even intercourse can be, too, or simply wearing those new high heels for nothing other than effect. Pain is an intricate part of what defines a woman and is an inevitable part her existence, but it is also, as Aristotle concluded, an excellent teacher. It's a consequence that sears the senses and brings a girl's whole consciousness to understanding. As females and as slaves, it is crucial to our training that we know pain and even more importantly, that we know we deserve pain. We deserve pain, not only because we are flawed and often in need of correction, but also because it simply is the most efficient and thorough method of penetrating down to the very core, and reaching the mind, emotions, and body, all in one blow. Pain speaks much louder than words...How many words would it take to express what a slap to the face can say all on its own? In order for us to be truly broken and perfectly obedient, we must know the consequences of disobedience are real. Considering this, a slave should be trained and communicated with in a similar way as a child. A parent doesn't bother with giving a child a detailed explanation for why he should or should not do something, the parent simply gives the rule and if the rule is broken, the child is punished. The idea is not to convince the child that the rule is right, instead, the objective is to establish authority. Slaves shouldn't be treated any differently. In order for a Master to truly establish himself as his slave's authority, it's necessary for her to understand that his word is law and there is no room for questioning it; she must simply obey and if she does not, the end result will be pain—and a lot of it. Suffering pain is humbling and builds trust between a Master and his slave. A girl who knows she'll receive a beating and carry visible evidence of it afterwards is not a girl who will be too proud. Pain reminds us of our vulnerability and weakness. It's a literal expression of our place and helps to remind us of our status as slaves. We live in a culture that elevates women, and from the time we are young, we're bombarded with messages that we should be proud and defiant. Society would have us believe that we are not equal to men, but superior. Even though the concept of submission stands in stark contrast to that of modern feminism, the “I am woman, hear me roar” mentality has still found it's way into the hearts and minds of submissive females. Thus, we see a strain of “submissive” females trying to reconcile being slaves and being “powerful” women. How many times have we seen the proclamations, “submission is a gift” and “submission makes you strong?” We've come so far from understanding what it means to be a slave, but suffering real pain brings us back to that literal place of humility. In order for trust between a Male and his female to be complete, a girl must know her slavery is real and not just a game. Pain is one of the most sobering and real sensations a person can feel. When a Master uses pain to guide his slave, he gives her something tangible as a guide; she knows then that she can put her full trust in him because he doesn't just make empty threats or play kinky bedroom games. His dominance is real and complete and she is free to submit fully, knowing she will pay a price for disobedience. A female who knows pain is a content and happy female. She is pleasing to her Master, she is gracious and kind to those around her, and she steers away from pride and jealousy. She is focused on and committed to the happiness of her Keeper. She is an ideal female. We are marked for pain by virtue of our sex, sisters. We should accept this and hope for a Master who is wise enough to know we need it when we fail. We should seek out a Master who can mold us into the perfect servants we have the potential to be, and if that needs physical pain, so be it. Believing that our place is at our Masters' feet, we should embrace pain and remember that anything worth believing in is worth suffering for.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ODadEO -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 8:47:37 AM)
no, that is not acceptable at all. That is just a macho SOB being an ass, and a dangerous ass, at that. She should get away as fast as she can and tell everyone who and how he acts, IMO.

missturbation -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 9:00:46 AM)
quote: She safeworded which we can presume to be a signal they both agreed to as a sign to "stop, really, somethings wrong." quote: I'm surprised at the number of people on this thread who are condoning a dominant ignoring a safeword. quote: The submissive has submitted to the dominant in a full, no holds barred, sort of way (call it what you want). quote: The submissive starts crying and screaming for him to stop, including uttering whatever passes for safe words if any exist. As i read it she submitted no holds barred. There is no mention of there DEFINATELY being a safe word in place. From my original post. quote: The submissive starts crying and screaming for him to stop, including uttering whatever passes for safe words if any exist If the submissive has given no kolds barred consent this would imply no limits or safe word to me so perfectly acceptable. If however she has been given a safe word to use then his ignoring it is bang out of order. quote: Being accountable does not necessarily mean we get it all right immediately How about cutting the dom a little slack then and saying he read the situation wrong. quote: she became aware that THIS thing was not ok with her, communicated it and was ignored, communicated AGAIN and was ignored Sorry i see nowhere where it says she repeatedly communicated for him to stop and was ignored. I saw she screamed and begged for him to stop. I scream and beg for sir to stop sometimes too, doesnt mean i have withdrawn consent. There are way too many fine lines to make a call on the limited info given.

mistoferin -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 9:02:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 so erin, in all ways, you govern your life according to the laws and mores of society at large? you allow the law to dictate what type of relationship you have, what type of sexual activities you engage in (and the gender of your sexual partners), and the values and ethics you live by? No prop I don't. But I also understand that where the rubber meets the road the laws of society DO supercede the laws of my home. So if I want to enjoy my own preferences without interference from society I should do so in a manner that won't cast my preferences under the spotlight of scrutiny of those who enforce those laws by involving people who are not in consent in my activities. quote: also, it doesn't seem strange to you that 1. a slave would have a safeword, and 2. a submissive/slave would safeword in the middle of a punishment? i'm certainly no expert on the subject, but aren't safewords typically reserved for "play" and "scening"? i know that you do not agree with punishment dynamics, but i'm sure that even you would see the futility of a punishment structure where the submissive could simply safeword out? It does not seem strange to me in today's world that a slave would have a safeword. Take a look around....people are screaming from the rooftops that they can structure their dynamics ANY way they choose and there is no standard they must apply. As you know I am no fan of the safeword philosophy. I am also not a fan of punishment dynamics. It's not that it doesn't make sense to me that a slave could possibly safeword during a punishment as I can certainly see it occurring, especially in a world that places such a value on safewords. In a world where people jump in and make commitments without realizing what exactly the ramifications of that commitment are. Where people often define themselves as things they are not because they perceive an elevated status by doing so. But to me that speaks to an imcompatibility of expectations between partners and not to some unwritten rule being broken. I believe that in the scenario that was described the action should have stopped at the utterance of that word. What the result of that on the relationship as a whole ultimately ends up being is to then be determined by the involved parties.

seababy -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 9:06:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FlamingRedhead I agree with missturbation's and Calla's assessment, which seems to be the unpopular vote, that this scenario is acceptable. If a submissive person enters a no holds barred relationship and issues a slave veto, that person had better be prepared to be punished for disobedience or released. I don't see corporal punishment as a way to force submission because there are some instances where someone might rather take the punishment than do what was asked. I also don't believe in a safe word during punishment. Punishment isn't meant to be fun or enjoyable or controlled by the bottom. Of course, we have no way of knowing whether this was a simple spanking or a full-body beating that landed her in the ER, etc, to say whether this was abusive, but I'm surprised at the number of people jumping on the bandwagon. I gathered this was hypothetical? Lets look at a slave veto situation, I agree to no holds barred for the duration of the relationship. However if the relationship was to disolve that would no longer be applicable to continue to submit and obey your now ex master (you would hope) I dissolve this relationship in the middle of the punishment session for whatever reason by using a safe word. I've stepped back from my submission by reneging on our agreement and told that person to STOP... So why are you still hitting my ass?! "Hey this feels wrong, I just feel like this is abuse, I need this to stop now. Shit I used my safe word and its made him angrier and his hitting me harder now. As soon as I can stop him from hitting me I'm walking out the door." What should she have said? Or because her ego/libido/lack of knowledge of herself got her commiting to something she couldn't handle does that then mean she has no choice until her Dom decides to stop? I really think the Dominant can kick her out the door later for reneging on her side of the deal if he/she wants, but they should stop and address whats going on.

RCdc -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 9:11:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzDeadlyRed Pain The Helpful Enemy By Sharon R. Aristotle said, “We cannot learn without pain.” (snipped for brevity) What an absolutely crass and terrible article as well as a complete generalisation - which is ALWAYS inherently 'wrong'. the.dark.

mistoferin -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 9:13:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: MzDeadlyRed Pain The Helpful Enemy By Sharon R. Aristotle said, “We cannot learn without pain.” (snipped for brevity) What an absolutely crass and terrible article as well as a complete generalisation - which is ALWAYS inherently 'wrong'. the.dark. I totally agree. Blech!!!![:'(]

IrishMist -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 9:16:39 AM)
quote: I totally agree. Blech!!!![:'(] /nods I second that...or third that...or whatever number [8D] Absolute drivel

RCdc -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 9:17:38 AM)
[sm=mop.gif]Clean up - aisle erin![;)] Pfttt... Aristotle was always crap at biology anyway. the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 9:22:01 AM)
What is even more bizzaro is the fact that it posted by a female dominant(I perved the profile) - I cannot get my head around that one... the.dark.

leadership527 -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 9:23:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 but if you don't mind, i'm more interested in why you feel the way you do about such a scenario...in your eyes, what is the grave offense the Dominant has committed, what has occured so atrocious that it would warrant police interference, and why is the submissive seemingly innocent? as someone who has been a slave for 8 yrs come this october, and understands that this is not an easy path and that sometimes a Master may push a girl to the breaking point and at the time it may feel like it will be impossible to bear it, but always, always the Master is there to show you that you can....and knowing that you are in a M/s dynamic as well, one without the accessories of BDSM, just as we are...just how and why is the scenario as you have described it so troubling? Sure, I'd be happy to try to answer.... insert mandatory disclaimer here that these views are representative of MY ethical system only and are are expressed as assertive statements. These assertsion are not meant to be applied to the reader. Do not insert fingers in this post. Do not melt with acid and inhale fumes. Incorrect application of this post voids any warranty express or implied. Not valid in all 50 states. Not valid in your relationship. Some restrictions may apply. Is it unethical for a slave to disobey her master? Yes, she made a prior agreement and she's now unilaterally modifying it. Don't mistake me here. There is nothing that I see as "good" about people who cannot make and meet commitments. I have discipline, strength, integrity and wisdom questions about the woman in the story. Can a slave revoke consent? Yes. I do not acknowledge the concept of irrevocable consent. Much of my subsequent reasoning follows from that (and this is probably where you and I diverge). Had I asked you, "Do you think it's ok for a guy to beat a woman who has never consented to such a thing?" I'm guessing you'd be agreeing with me. I see the scenario presented as exactly identical to that. Was her timing and handling appopriate? Honestly, I don't have a clue on that one. There was insufficient details in this hypothetical example to get an answer. I just don't see it as any relevant part at all to my decision tree. Nor is the nature of the command or the specific harshness of the corporal punishment (within some credible limits, I wouldn't be calling the cops if he "beat" her with a feather.) What is the grave offense? Spousal abuse and assault and battery. In this case, my ethical systems also agree with the law of the land. Why is the submissive innocent? She clearly communicated her wishes. He struck her after that. As soon as that happened, in my mind, this was no longer consentual BDSM, but rather a crime and morally reprehensible (to me). That is the entire beginning and end of my decision tree. There are no other catches, ifs, or maybes. I was raised with a very very clear message both from my parents and then in subsequent various adult training... "no" means "no" (and again, let's not play word games on that one,let's just assume she really meant "no" as I wrote). In general, I get that you are in a positive, affirming relationship. I get that your master pushes your boundaries. So do I. As I type this, mine is being pushed past a pretty nasty [for her] public humiliation boundary. The bottom line in my head though, is that you are still saying "yes". So is my wife. I'm sure she is, as I type, thinking very unslavelike thoughts about me laughs, but she is consenting. Even at times in your past when you may have really wanted to say "no", you in the end said "yes" (I have to assume since you are still together). You are still consenting. And so I am thrilled for you and yours and speculate joyful thoughts about your relationship. I hope that helps explain my reasoning about my ethical standards.

sirsholly -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 9:24:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzDeadlyRed a slave should be trained and communicated with in a similar way as a child. A parent doesn't bother with giving a child a detailed explanation for why he should or should not do something, the parent simply gives the rule and if the rule is broken, the child is punished . The idea is not to convince the child that the rule is right, instead, the objective is to establish authority. Slaves shouldn't be treated any differently. In order for a Master to truly establish himself as his slave's authority, it's necessary for her to understand that his word is law and there is no room for questioning it; she must simply obey and if she does not, the end result will be pain—and a lot of it. So...a Master has to slap down a rule to establish authority? That..and the entire article...is simply wrong.

IrishMist -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 9:28:07 AM)
quote: A parent doesn't bother with giving a child a detailed explanation for why he should or should not do something, the parent simply gives the rule and if the rule is broken, the child is punished. The idea is not to convince the child that the rule is right, instead, the objective is to establish authority. Slaves shouldn't be treated any differently. I personally found this part quite amusing in that it shows that the 'author' not only has no fucking idea what she is talking about, but that she obviously does not understand youngins very much lol. Sorry for the hijack [:o]

RCdc -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 9:31:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist quote: A parent doesn't bother with giving a child a detailed explanation for why he should or should not do something, the parent simply gives the rule and if the rule is broken, the child is punished. The idea is not to convince the child that the rule is right, instead, the objective is to establish authority. Slaves shouldn't be treated any differently. I personally found this part quite amusing in that it shows that the 'author' not only has no fucking idea what she is talking about, but that she obviously does not understand youngins very much lol. Sorry for the hijack [:o] Just agrees. the.dark.

MzDeadlyRed -> RE: Is this dominance to you? (9/4/2008 9:34:49 AM)
You folks aren't real big on accepting another's interpretation or opinion are you? The article was written by a female slave, and it was HER interpretation and opinion. I found her opinion VERY interesting. Do I agree with it? Not necessarily on all counts, but another's point of view is always most interesting. I love seeing how other people look at different things. My opinion on the whole thing was written above the article and was based only on what the OP wrote, not on what I ASSUMED. I respect your opinions on this, but such vehement objection, I can see the steam coming from your ears! [:D]

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