RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of

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KnightofMists -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 9:28:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sujuguete But if it happens out of the blue with no explanation and no end in sight, of course the sub is going to feel hurt and abandoned, which can only damage the relationship. Even if one is prepared ... it can result in th same feelings of hurt and abandonment that will hurt a relationship. How the message is precieved by the submissive/slave will be the driving force. It is critical to ensure the proper message is communicated. My girls are required to share immediately with me when they feel abandoned or rejected... for it is a feeling I never want them to have because of what I have done or said. In every case they have felt this.. it was due to a miscommunication. I clear up the communication immediately. But they learn very clearly... I will Not accept poor behavior at any time! I am anal about it. I demand it! and they are held accountable on HOW they behave or say. I don't always like what is said.... I am ok with that.. but I do care that they say it constructively!... just as I am will be constructive when I say to them something they will not like.

KnightofMists -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 9:29:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterAramis Keep in mind my original OP was not for submissives but slaves. and I speak of long enduring M/s relationships. two types of relationships? accepted and surrendered..... Last time I checked... every M/s relationship is Unique.

MasterAramis -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 2:21:44 PM)
quote: two types of relationships? accepted and surrendered..... Last time I checked... every M/s relationship is Unique. In my opinion I don't believe that is accurate, while the dynamic might be different the nature of the relationship should fall into one of the two camps. I thought the post I referred to explained it quite well, probably better than I could, and while I myself am not Gorean, one doesn't have to be in order to understand how it applies to M/s. Aramis

KnightofMists -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 3:19:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterAramis quote: two types of relationships? accepted and surrendered..... Last time I checked... every M/s relationship is Unique. In my opinion I don't believe that is accurate, while the dynamic might be different the nature of the relationship should fall into one of the two camps. I thought the post I referred to explained it quite well, probably better than I could, and while I myself am not Gorean, one doesn't have to be in order to understand how it applies to M/s. Aramis the concept of acceptance and surrender is a nice romantic notion. It makes some people to feel good and inflate their ego by making labels that raise themselves in comparison to others. yup she just isn't just any slave... she is a surrendered slave!. I find the distinction to be rather silly... especially since it has nothing to do with being a slave. Fact is... relationships are unique and a person's journey within their own M/s dynamic is often full of change and evolutions. Seldom have I seen a healthy enduring relationship maintain a status quo of existence. They generally evolve.. . The concept of acceptance and surrender that the post refers to seems to refer to reaching a deeper stage of existence in their service. However, seldom do they admit the truth that it is more about a preception they have of themselves yesterday as compared the now. In a healthy dynamic today they will feel a greater sense of surrender than they did in the past. They have grown and reach deeper into who they are and allowed those things to manifest as they are today. Tomorrow.. they will go deeper and tomorrow when they look back at today it will appear they are not as enlightened. This is not just with slaves... each day we grow and learn. Seldom are we actually less tomorrow than we are today... but it's not impossible, particularly when we lose a significant part of what has given us great sense of happiness and fullfillment. Walk alittle further and even these moments will have something of value for us to move forward with that we couldn't of gained any other way. I have said before and I will say it again. The day I met my Alandra I felt a deep sense of love for her. I couldn't imagine that I could love her more or deeper. 20 years later.. I know that my love has only grown and become deeper.. I look back at myself those 20 years ago... and I realize how little I knew of loving my girl. I can't begin to understand or appreciate what and how I will feel in another twenty years. Love is a concept.. my understanding grows with experience. This is not unlike any concept such as Slavehood, Submission, Dominance, Motherhood, etc. It is also silly to try to compare one's individual place in there journey to others place in their journey. It's comparing incomparable situations because No one is at the same place or shares the exact same perceptions. I am deeply in love with another girl, Kyra. It is impossible to compare the depth of love I have for one or the other... it is no easier than trying to dissect the love I have for the 4 young ones I have. But I do know that we each.. it grows with each day. Just as I know that Alandra's depth of understanding in her slavery grows with each day. Just as I know that anyone will have a deeper understanding over the course of time. I can appreciate that you think that the nature of a the relationship should fall into each camps. This is actually more reflective of the place you are in your own journey rather than their being any truth in such a statement. However, where you are at.. I suspect it is very true... it just isn't true for those that have walked a different path and see things from a different perspective. Seldom are pigeon holing people into little boxes hold much value over the course of time. In fact.. I would say it better to say people are on a specific path rather than a particular box. Box seems to imply they are stagnant. But as I said.. people are full of change and many are on a path of slavery and there are many addresses along the path, many detours, many streets to turn on to. It is a busy road with many on it... and I have found that it is foolhardy to try and put them into little boxes. I have found that they are much more complex than that.

MasterAramis -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 4:00:39 PM)
quote: This is actually more reflective of the place you are in your own journey rather than their being any truth in such a statement. First of all, in my post that I commented on, I did not judge you or use derogatory remarks to down play your view point. I said I didn't agree with it. I also find it interesting you claim to know about my journey as I have never spoken to you or shared any of my information with you. Please don't assume my good man. Classification of human behavior has always been a practice in the mental health arena, one such classification test, Meyers-Briggs makes attempts to classify a persons characteristics and, in so doing, how they process information. There is nothing silly or egotistical in trying to classify human behavior including behavior in the Master slave dynamic. Now as it relates to what you provided, Your post was informative, however it was from your perspective regarding love of a slave. but my post was from the slaves perspective. However, with any new relationship, yes one may fall head over heels in love right out of the gate as in your case, but it is not a usual occurrence especially when many go through several "Lovers" in their lifetime. Often time it is a mutual attraction or infatuation that draws two people together initially. In a Master slave dynamic I have not found it to be the case where the slave falls madly in love right when the collar is placed on her. Certainly there is a level of love there, but not the love you mention that took over 20 years to create. At that very moment she believes in this man and places her trust in him, she accepts by agreeing to obey him. It is only over time that the love you mention is created. It is over this time that she will become internally enslaved if handled properly. Again this is my opinion, your mileage may vary. Aramis Duval

KnightofMists -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 4:53:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterAramis First of all, in my post that I commented on, I did not judge you or use derogatory remarks to down play your view point. I said I didn't agree with it. I also find it interesting you claim to know about my journey as I have never spoken to you or shared any of my information with you. Please don't assume my good man. Yup you didn't agree with it. Which in of itself is a judgement. I have no problem with that. We make judgements all the time. Secondly, I find it amusing that you find the comments you quoted to be derogatory. Again, it is more an reflection of you than me. Which is neither derogatory or a compliment.. it just is what it is. Lastly, I didn't claim to know your journey. I just happen to see a particular viewpoint that you are communicating that reflection a person is at a certain point in their journey. There is no assumption... but your right I am a good man.. just not yours.. I am my own. quote: Classification of human behavior has always been a practice in the mental health arena, one such classification test, Meyers-Briggs makes attempts to classify a persons characteristics and, in so doing, how they process information. There is nothing silly or egotistical in trying to classify human behavior including behavior in the Master slave dynamic. oh... so you have the knowledge and experience as well as the scientific data to build a well thought out classification such as a Meyers-Briggs for the person of classifying behavior in the M/s dynamics for the rest of us. Please share these classifications for the rest of us. Yes people have been trying to do that for eons in the lifestyle. Making boxes and trying to put people in this box and people in that box. Sometimes it is very silly and egotistical and sometimes it's very well meaning. However, Experience is taught me that even though as individuals we will have our boxes in the way we see the world... an individual's boxes are hardly universal for everyone and when they attempt to project such universality onto others... well they start to look very silly. quote: Now as it relates to what you provided, Your post was informative, however it was from your perspective regarding love of a slave. but my post was from the slaves perspective. mmmmm your slave? No actually your post was from your perspective just as mine was from my persepective. I don't claim to speak for slaves. I do share my perspective from the insights I have gained from those I have communicated with in a variety of ways.... but in the end... it's just my perspective of things.. I guess my ego is too small to claim I can speak from the perspective of others... particularly when they walk in different shoes than I. quote: However, with any new relationship, yes one may fall head over heels in love right out of the gate as in your case, but it is not a usual occurrence especially when many go through several "Lovers" in their lifetime. Often time it is a mutual attraction or infatuation that draws two people together initially. In a Master slave dynamic I have not found it to be the case where the slave falls madly in love right when the collar is placed on her. Certainly there is a level of love there, but not the love you mention that took over 20 years to create. At that very moment she believes in this man and places her trust in him, she accepts by agreeing to obey him. It is only over time that the love you mention is created. It is over this time that she will become internally enslaved if handled properly. mmmmmm reading this post... I realize that I miscommunicated my thougths in my post. when i said "The day I met my Alandra I felt a deep sense of love for her." This comment was not to intended to reflect the very moment we met. It was intended to mean that in the early part of the relationship which in actually time was over the course of months not in a single moment or day. Stated my thoughts poorly and as such I need to correct that. I agree with you that the love at first sight is not an usual occurance. Even though I had that affection and obvious arousal for her, it was weeks before I was able to bring about some idea of awareness of what was going in my head. It was weeks after that before I could accept it for what it is. Many doubts many concerns... and then just acceptance for what it is. However, actual time is a red herring issue. For some it might take weeks or months or years. for others they might find it in those first few moments (as rare as that is) Time is not the issue... it's the experience that one has looking from the given perspective. A slave, Master, or anyone else for that matter will learn with each experience that happens in there life. It affects them and particularly the perspectives they are looking at their world. for example.. TearsforPayne has a unique perspective to looking at the world today compared to last year. In many ways, for her right now, today is much worse "not good" in comparison to those 11 years that she was with her former Master. However, just because this is her perspective today doesn't mean that every other slave are in that perspective today who happen to be single. In fact, her experiences has a huge impact on her current perspective of today. It might be she is still mourning that relationship then again it might not. I wonder how her perspective will change if/when she is a slave to another. I doubt that she will not be so eager to compare that tomorrow to yesterday and then again... her experiences might be that she can never be enslaved to another. But, we don't know what tomorrow is going to bring... we can have hope, but some give up on that as well. Some will live in the past, some will just try to get by in the given moment... the possibilities are rather endless. quote: Again this is my opinion, your mileage may vary. yes that is right... your opinion.... your perspective... which is right from all that you percieve in the given moment... just as I do and anyone else. However,... this doesn't mean our perspectives are all that accurate... sometimes one piece of information that is there but we are unaware of can change our view of the world or a given situation. Boxes, classification are used..... but the problem gets when people seem to thing that the box is the way it is... that people don't evolve or shift.

MasterAramis -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 5:13:48 PM)
quote: oh... so you have the knowledge and experience as well as the scientific data to build a well thought out classification such as a Meyers-Briggs Yes I do have knowledge of the test and it's procedures. The test is used by many fortune 500 companies for middle managers and up. As for the classifications, they apply to all people regardless of your preference. Many dominants should probably become familiar with this test as it may just give them better insights to communicating with their slaves. Have you ever taken or administered the test? Are you in the mental health field? I have both taken and administered this test. quote: Which in of itself is a judgement. quote: and inflate their ego by making labels that raise themselves in comparison to others. yup she just isn't just any slave... she is a surrendered slave!. I find the distinction to be rather silly... You need to read what I said again more closely, I didn't judge YOU. That was the point. I am not arrogant enough to call other people egotistical or silly when I don't even know the first thing about them. Hey if it works for them, that is fine. I have no problem with that. I will share my opinion, I may openly disagree with them, but I don't judge THEM. I will also take the time to read the quoted referenced material before I share my opinion. Did you read what I referenced in my post? I like to have meaningful conversation and discussion. But then again there appears only one correct viewpoint here so all other discussion is moot.

DesFIP -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 6:11:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterAramis Sure they can, no one is saying they can't. You were reading into it, don't. It's just that many slaves have to put walls in order to force themselves to combat the world when they would much rather be able to release that and be themselves and that in itself becomes draining and they are unfulfilled. Aramis The fact that we may require greater expenditure of energies to do things that our dominants do easily does not make us silly. It makes us submissive. I could as easily claim that all dominants were silly because it takes greater effort and energy for them to bow to authority (bosses, police officers, code enforcement officers etc). Different is good. You assuming we are lesser and inferior because we are submissive is not silly, but condescending and a red flag to anyone who might contemplate meeting with you, assuming you are looking. I didn't bother to peruse your profile.

MasterAramis -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 6:36:07 PM)
quote: Different is good. You assuming we are lesser and inferior because we are submissive is not silly, but condescending and a red flag to anyone who might contemplate meeting with you, assuming you are looking. I didn't bother to peruse your profile. Your a little late to the game on my silly comment, but perhaps you should have read the subsequent posts, that ensued by it and it might have provided a little more clarification. By the way, based on your profile (I did read yours) and this post, you are submissive, the original OP and my subsequent posts are geared toward slaves. quote: You assuming we are lesser and inferior I assumed nothing. It is you that is assuming, but there is nothing wrong with people who can be silly. My slave is sometimes silly to get me to smile or lighten up. There is nothing wrong with it. If you took it badly then perhaps the issue lies elsewhere and not with the comment. Aramis Duval

KnightofMists -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 6:54:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterAramis Yes I do have knowledge of the test and it's procedures. The test is used by many fortune 500 companies for middle managers and up. As for the classifications, they apply to all people regardless of your preference. Many dominants should probably become familiar with this test as it may just give them better insights to communicating with their slaves. Have you ever taken or administered the test? Are you in the mental health field? I have both taken and administered this test. good for you. I am knowledgable of the test, it's procedures and have taken the test and a few others. HR departments have placed alot of value in these tests, operational departments tend to place more importance on results. The old arguement from HR is that the test help you find the people that get the results. This is a rather tough sell for many concrete thinkers in the operational sides of the business. As a person in the operational side of things, I have found alot of value. But.. like anything... it's just a tool.. and a tool that is not properly used is rather useless and might even be more damaging to the situation. It's applying the results of the test and learning what the results really mean in application and not just theory. It's being able to see the grays and fine detail that contribute to the results in it's application. Looking to understand why the results are less and more than expected... which is almost always in the grays and fine detail. those grays and fine details that make every person and situation unique. quote: You need to read what I said again more closely, I didn't judge YOU. That was the point. I am not arrogant enough to call other people egotistical or silly when I don't even know the first thing about them. Hey if it works for them, that is fine. I have no problem with that. I will share my opinion, I may openly disagree with them, but I don't judge THEM. I always find it surprizing that people have so much issue with the concept of judgement. We make judgements all the time. But some people lack courage to speak their thoughts honestly and openly. Instead the need to imply things instead of making direct statements. For example... "I am not arrogant enough to call other people egotistical or silly" which by implications are that a person that does is Arrogant in your view. So... instead of having the strength of character to actually say that I am arrogant for calling people egotisitical or silly.. you have to do so in a backhanded manner of a person that lacks courage. Some people are Arrogant. In fact, I would say that it is a fair statement that I can be very arrogant in certain situations... I can face my truth... but can you face yours? Some people do indeed take on labels and ideas for very silly and egotisitically reasons... this of course doesn't mean everyone. A spade is a spade. I am not afraid to call it that.... but not all things are spades.. some things are diamonds, hearts and clubs. I can call it that as well... I have the strength of courage to be direct and share my perspective openly and directly. Which sometimes is right and sometimes is wrong. When wrong... I am not afraid to admit it... but the arrogance in me has to say... I am seldom wrong chuckle. quote: I will also take the time to read the quoted referenced material before I share my opinion. Did you read what I referenced in my post? I like to have meaningful conversation and discussion. But then again there appears only one correct viewpoint here so all other discussion is moot. mmmmm a closed-mind is such an ugly thing. I wonder are you really that open-minded as you seem to claim to be. What is being open-minded to you? Seems to me that being open-minded is someone that will agree with you and share your view. That it is only meaningful if it shares a perspective with you. I find interesting that you think things are a moot point but you really haven't providing any reasoning or rational why you believe or hold to a point of view.. such as two types of slaves. It is easy to say.. I believe X... but so often people fall short when they have to say why. to provide anything of substance of why they see it that way. You stated what you believed. I disagree with it. My experience as supported my view point. I also happened to think that some have silly or egotistically reasons for the belief. That does leave open the door for others that have some rather rational and considerate reasoning beyond the belief that is more than .. "my experience tells me this". I shared why I don't see it as that way. I see things not as stagnant. I see alot of evolution in people and I see that peoples perspectives of today will very likely be different tomorrow. However, instead of providing any substance.. you take on the wounded victim... look to take the high road because your not arrogant. I find your approach to expected... see it alot around here and never stops to amuse me. ps.. yeah.. I read your material... the perspective of someone else. a perspective that I can appreciate the person as having based on their own values and experiences. my values and experiences give me a different perspective.

KnightofMists -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 7:01:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP The fact that we may require greater expenditure of energies to do things that our dominants do easily does not make us silly. It makes us submissive. I could as easily claim that all dominants were silly because it takes greater effort and energy for them to bow to authority (bosses, police officers, code enforcement officers etc). I would also add.. that it is an inaccurate to think that all Dominants do a particular task easier than all submissives. How many times have we heard from Dominants that have struggled in one area or another that so many have had an easy time of it.. submissive or otherwise. Our particular place in our journey will affect us just as much if not more than our inherent nature. Dominant or Submissive don't have any particular easy step that is applicable to any specific group. We are unique... even amoung all that makes us similiar quote: Different is good. You assuming we are lesser and inferior because we are submissive is not silly, but condescending and a red flag to anyone who might contemplate meeting with you, assuming you are looking. I didn't bother to peruse your profile. becareful... you are judging him! oh shit.... not only am I arrogant... I am sarcastic guilt as charged!

KnightofMists -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 7:05:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterAramis the original OP and my subsequent posts are geared toward slaves. what an interesting statment.... appears as very dismissive... like a submissive person's comments have little value in a discussion with regards to the topic... if that is the case... I suppose that one should ignor the thoughts and idea of anyone except the person who is a slave...............mmmmmmmmm of course.. then that raises the whole can of worms of who is a slave.... after all we have to police who we should listen to and who we shouldn't..

MasterAramis -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 7:17:35 PM)
quote: what an interesting statment.... appears as very dismissive... If you took it as dismissive then so be it. If you are as knowledgeable as you claim to you would know there is a different dynamic to both types of people and this thread, the thread I started before you decided to try to hijack it, was geared to toward that. While I was open to your interpretations as an alternate view point, but your comments seem go against any meaningful dialog.

MasterAramis -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 7:27:56 PM)
quote: Some people are Arrogant. In fact, I would say that it is a fair statement that I can be very arrogant in certain situations... I can face my truth... but can you face yours? hmm, I try to be polite and get my point across as best as I can. If you felt I was saying you are arrogant, then by all means go on with that thinking. I don't need to inform you of what you are. You already know it! Why do you need me validate your behavior? That's like a child throwing a temper tantrum wanting Mommy or Daddy to give them the attention. You look a little older than a child so why would stoop to that level. Aramis

MadRabbit -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 7:28:37 PM)
I would love to hear the difference between acceptance and surrender in your words.

KnightofMists -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 7:30:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterAramis If you took it as dismissive then so be it. If you are as knowledgeable as you claim to you would know there is a different dynamic to both types of people and this thread, the thread I started before you decided to try to hijack it, was geared to toward that. yes... I am very much aware that there are different dynamics.... but that doesn't mean that we can't learn from them just the same. Sometimes those differences expressed provide alot of value in ones own understanding of their world. quote: While I was open to your interpretations as an alternate view point, but your comments seem go against any meaningful dialog. you are open to your interpretations... but you keep responding.... so is thatn not dialogue.. and as far as meaningful.. guess that is a matter of perspective... since I am finding it meaningful in learning a few things.

KnightofMists -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 7:37:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterAramis hmm, I try to be polite and get my point across as best as I can. we try... but sometimes we don't suceed. Just as I noted in a previous post. It was my comment that lead to a wrong understanding. I corrected that understanding. But.. the mistakes are not always in one direction... no one is prefect... to the bad or to the good. quote: If you felt I was saying you are arrogant, felt?.........mmmmmmm no that is an emotional response. my conclusion is a logical interpretation not an emotional one. quote: then by all means go on with that thinking. I shall quote: I don't need to inform you of what you are. You already know it! yes I do... and each moment I learn more about myself and the world around me. quote: Why do you need me validate your behavior? mmmmmmm I do? mmmmm well since I already know who I am... I think I know that I don't need you to validate my behaviors. So... I have to wonder... why do you think I do.. when you already know that I know myself. Interesting.

KnightofMists -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 7:38:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit I would love to hear the difference between acceptance and surrender in your words. so would I... but he has yet to provide any substance to his beliefs and views.... but I wait

MadRabbit -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 7:47:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit I would love to hear the difference between acceptance and surrender in your words. so would I... but he has yet to provide any substance to his beliefs and views.... but I wait I had no idea that the emotional state that drives slaves in their own relationships could be so easily quantified into Bucket A "Acceptance" and Bucket B "Surrender". It kind of reminds me of the movie Donnie Darko where Donnie's teacher tried to divide the entire spectrum of human emotion into either "Fear" or "Love". I'm sitting on the edge of my seat, waiting for this one.

MasterAramis -> RE: Communicating with the slave or lack there of (9/6/2008 7:54:52 PM)
quote: I would love to hear the difference between acceptance and surrender in your words. Mad, I think I might have blown by your post initially, my apologies. I provided that already in one of the responses to KnightofMists but here it is in brief format and I will try to expand upon it: quote: At that very moment she believes in this man and places her trust in him, she accepts by agreeing to obey him. This is typically at the beginning of M/s relationship. Actually probably any D/s relationship, She has enough information to understand that she wishes to give herself to this man as she has gotten to know him over time, but the reality is she is still holding herself in slavery. She could easily leave at any moment and walk out the door. quote: It is over this time that she will become internally enslaved This is where the slave has released herself completely to her Master, and her slavery is now held by the Master. Even if she wanted to leave for whatever reason in time, the hold on her that the Master has is so great she cant. In the right hands this is a beautiful accomplishment, but there is a discussion over on the Gorean boards right now that is talking about abuses that can occur at this level. Even if she is able to walk out, the chains that held her are so tight that it may take years for her to feel fully released and become functional again. I hope this answers your question. Aramis quote: I had no idea that the emotional state that drives slaves in their own relationships could be so easily quantified into Bucket A "Acceptance" and Bucket B "Surrender". Mad, there isn't a fine line when the transference occurs. It happens gradually. I would be curious to know what your experience has been?

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