Mea Culpa (Full Version)

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Leonidas -> Mea Culpa (7/31/2004 11:31:14 AM)

Someone that I won't name reminded me privately (thanks Iwill), that most folks who clam to be what I claim to be usually show up here and post once or twice, and then disappear, and have profiles that start out with something like:

I am LordBosk, first sword of Brundisium, fear me or die. You are female, and so you are my natural slave. Un-cap your nick, kneel, and call me Master, or you will be hunted by sleen from the Northern forests to the Tamber Gulf and beyond.....blah blah blah.

Yes, I know they're out there. Yes, I know they they're common. Yes, I know that they reflect badly on folks like me, just as the large numbers of folks who troll the highways and byways of cyberspace with handles like LordMasterDomlyDom because they think that subby girls are easy reflect badly on the serious people in the BDSM community at large. I am so aware of it in fact that I have chastised people publically on this very board who started behaving like that.

Someone on another thread asked what it took to belong to the little sub-culture to which I belong. I responded that it had a philosophical basis. A couple of other folks said, in effect, "no it doesn't, there is no philosophy there, it's just a bunch of role-players and trekkies and people who never outgrew dungeons and dragons". No doubt influenced by folks with profiles like the one above. As someone who has posted more alternative philosophy on this board than I probably should have already, I guess I thought I had earned better than that. So, I more-or-less savaged the folks who were saying it, and I shouldn't have. I have been around long enough to be more patient with people than that.

People are entitled to their opinions, whether they are informed opinions, or just stereotypes. I know that, I just forget it once in a while when the stereotype is being applied to me. So, to the folks that were the object of the wrath, and also to those who were offended just reading it, my apologies here and now.

Take care of yourselves.

Leonidas



Sinergy -> RE: Mea Culpa (7/31/2004 12:13:55 PM)

quote:

I am LordBosk, first sword of Brundisium, fear me or die. You are female, and so you are my natural slave. Un-cap your nick, kneel, and call me Master, or you will be hunted by sleen from the Northern forests to the Tamber Gulf and beyond.....blah blah blah


Hello Leonidas,

You have not offended me, and I apologize in turn if anything I have said regarding Gor has offended you. You can fill vast tomes with the things I dont know about Gor, apart from reading many of the Gorean books when I was a teenager.

I am curious, though. Are Gorean females the natural slaves of Gorean males? I have a friend who is a online Gorean and I believe her character is both female and a keeper of slaves.

I could be wrong about what she does; I have never been involved in Gor and dancing 6 nights a week and working 7 days a week seems to be somewhat curtailing my available on-line time.

Just me, could be wrong, this is the actual non-alien-abducted Sinergy V2.0 with MsCaveat installed.

Sinergy



Leonidas -> RE: Mea Culpa (7/31/2004 12:55:26 PM)

Shit, Sinergy, you are going to get me in dutch here. Aw well, what the hell.

As far as I can tell, there are a couple of classes of role-players online. One class tries to do everything exactly like it was done in the books. The other class pretty much makes up things as they go along. In the books, women did own slaves. Male slaves that they used for sex (referred to as a "silk slave"), and sometimes female slaves that were just serving slaves ("tower slaves"). There weren't any examples of lesbian relationships in the books. So, it could well be that your friend's online character would own some slaves. Male slavery was depicted in the books as an involuntary, degraded, "unnatural" state. If she has male slaves that want to be slaves then she's in the camp that doesn't really follow the books, they just do what they want. So much for the role-players.

Now for the non-role-player part (and here is where I'm likely to get grief). We believe that many (but not all) women are the natural slaves of men. That is what they want to be. We also belive that most men in modern society simply aren't masculine enough to engender feelings of submission in most women. So, for most women, submission remains a fantasy (evidenced by the millions of paperbacks that are sold with the manly-man main character that takes control of his woman). We aren't the first ones to notice:

quote:

They [women] have wonderfully primitive instincts. We have emancipated them, but they remain slaves looking for their masters all the same.


One of us saying that? From one of the books? Nope. Oscar Wilde.

If you scan the profiles of this site, you will see many women confessing pretty much the same thing. "I want someone who doesn't see this as a "kink" just an expression of natural masculine domination of his woman" read one that I saw recently. Not a Gorean girl, but expressing the same need.

Among us, there are slave girls, and there are free women. Elsewhere I have described my household, where there was both a free woman and slave girls.

Free women don't, as a general rule, keep male slaves among us. They would come in for too much abuse from the free men. So (and here is where I'm going to get more grief) if one of our free women wants to use a male slave, she doesn't have to look far. She'll generally just pick up some non-Gorean man, which, because of his cultural conditioning to be solicitious to her in order to get pussy, she will look upon as just a slave anyway. There was a young free woman in our community that was known to have such "toys" that she used from time to time, which was fine. She made the mistake, though, of letting a Gorean man use her as one might use a slave. She was given the choice of leaving the group, or submitting to the collar. She chose the collar. It was probably the right choice for her anyway. She was living in Michigan, and still a slave, last I heard of her.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas



Sinergy -> RE: Mea Culpa (7/31/2004 1:00:50 PM)

Hello,

Thank you for the clarification. It was fascinating to read. Maybe she is simply a free-woman and does not own slaves, but I dont delve too deeply into it.

As far as getting grief for things, one of the things discussed in great detail during the 60s (second wave of Feminism as well as in equality movements) was the tendency of oppressed groups to splinter off into their own sets of polarized groups. Didn't Rodney King ask "Cant we all just get along?"

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy



LadyBeckett -> RE: Mea Culpa (7/31/2004 1:07:19 PM)

Well...I don't benefit from the apology either *sigh*, but the information is fascinating !



afmvdp -> RE: Mea Culpa (7/31/2004 1:44:32 PM)

Good read. I often agree with most of what I've read in Gor philosophy but my views are likely too tainted with the esoteric and spiritually abstract to fall in line. Give me a little sex magick and my dungeon on wheels and I'll be a happy camper.

Perhaps when I finish working on the new house for all the little filles violente I can actually get some more of these thoughts written out.



GoddessJules -> RE: Mea Culpa (7/31/2004 1:50:27 PM)

Leonidas,

I personally don't get offended if someone makes posts contra to mine. . .nor if they "flame" me. When I post, (especially in a public forum) I expect what I write to get some srutiny.

Also, I believe that when a gorean person post in a non-exclusively gorean forum. . .they are prepared or expect a few flames here and there. Just as a non gorean would expect that a gorean person would get defensive at any negative connotations applied to their lifestyle. So the gor vs no gor quibbles aren't suprising to anyone who has been around. . .it is almost expected.

Cheers~!

~Jules~



Leonidas -> RE: Mea Culpa (7/31/2004 4:59:54 PM)

quote:

but my views are likely too tainted with the esoteric and spiritually abstract to fall in line.


You might be surprised. There are some core values, if you will, that we all share, and there are some points of etiquitte and protocol that we all "buy into", but we are a fiercely independant minded bunch about most other things. In terms of spirituality, I happen to be Buddhist, but you won't find a lot of concurrance among us about religion. Not many born-again types, as would be expected, but other than that, it's wide open. We seem to have lots of military (and ex-military) both men and women, among us. In my small circle of friends here in southern cal there are two ex Navy Seals, an Army Ranger, and one ex-Army guy that does work for the NSA that he can't even talk about. There is also an very pretty, nearly six foot tall slave girl who was a navy HM in the Gulf War. I haven't done a lot of thinking as to why that is, but there is probably a common thread there somewhere.

Sex magick, tantric sex, ESO, karezza, etc. techniques are sometimes incorporated into the sexual training of a slave. It depends on who is training her, and their likes. I incorporate them myself. You'll hear me say this again and again about many things. It's a question of value. A slave that is both a sexual adept and highly sexually excitable is simply more pleasing to own (as far as I'm concerned), and so a more valuable slave.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas



afmvdp -> RE: Mea Culpa (7/31/2004 6:37:23 PM)

93/93 93

That is all.



Estring -> RE: Mea Culpa (7/31/2004 8:20:09 PM)

Leonidas, my past dealings with Dom/mes involved in the Gorean lifestyle have been very negative. My impressions and conclusions were formed from these experiences. I have to say that your conduct has always been exemplary as far as I have seen. Hell, I have agreed with much of what you post. It made me realize that I did paint a whole lifestyle with one paint brush. Though Gor may not be for me, I shouldn't judge it on dealings I have had in the past. There are bad apples in every bunch. But you definitely are not one.



jillwfsub4blkdom -> RE: Mea Culpa (8/1/2004 12:56:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Though Gor may not be for me, I shouldn't judge it on dealings I have had in the past. There are bad apples in every bunch. But you definitely are not one.



Well said Estring.

It also takes a big I/individual to admit when they have acted incorrectly.


jill



iwillserveu -> RE: Mea Culpa (8/1/2004 4:43:44 AM)

To make it clear what was in the e-mail. Leonidas is not a "Fake" Dom. (Yeah, I hate that term {"Fake"} too, but can't think of a good alternative.)



MistressDREAD -> RE: Mea Culpa (8/1/2004 9:05:28 PM)

peccavi nimis cogitatione, venia venia venia.......


There are both Free Men and Free Woman on Gor
There are both male slaves and female slaves on Gor.

just as there are both Dominant and suplicants in BDSM
GOR is the M/s version of BDSM in association.

slaves in GOR serve the same purpose as any slave in any culture
the Free Woman of Gor were the providers of Family, Home, and keepers of
what the Gorean Male aquired in both business, finance and worth according to the books and anyone can read them for further studies if they follow My links where I keep all the books online for teaching and study with the Author and publishers permission. JMO



Leonidas -> RE: Mea Culpa (8/1/2004 10:21:44 PM)

Dread. I can't tell you what's on Gor, because I've never been there. I'm willing to guess that you haven't either. The Gorean way of thinking about life isn't the M/s version of anything. You can be a fine Gorean man or woman and never keep a slave at all. I don't own a slave right now, but I am no less Gorean than when I did. It's the character and ethics that matter, not the slaves, or the whips, or the chains. I am well aware of what a Gorean free woman does in a man's house. I lived with one for over a decade. I had a slave who kept my books. She was better at it, and so I gave her the job. Hate to burst your bubble, but in a Gorean household, the (male) head of the house has the final word, and that includes deciding what role his companion will play.

If you have the books online I'd suggest you get them offline in a hurry. Neither JN nor his literary agent nor his new publisher sanctions copywrite infringment on his works. Make no mistake, that is what you are doing if you are letting people read his books for free.

I am saying these things to you, again, not because I think that it will do any good in your case, but because I don't want other readers getting a false impression of us.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas



Sundew02 -> RE: Mea Culpa (8/2/2004 12:17:06 AM)

I don't believe I have ever been flamed by you, nor have I had a cause to strongly disagree with you. But I will of course disagree with your philosophy here. I would not be interested in gor, for obvious reasons. I do enjoy your thoughtful posts. But I for one would not presume to know more than the basics about gor. I enjoy being in control way too much to ever fit into any society that could not accept my strong instinct to lead, never follow. But then that would be another post, smile. I hope to cross type with you on many more occassions. Sundew



MistressDREAD -> RE: Mea Culpa (8/2/2004 2:07:45 AM)

Leonidas
You are wrong to say that I have never visited Gor nor You.
quote:

Dread. I can't tell you what's on Gor, because I've never been there. I'm
willing to guess that you haven't either.

Gor is in My body mind and soul just as any book One follows
to live life by. Ill gander to say that You have never been to heavan or hell either but if christian and follow the bible damn sure will say you beleive in its and will one day be there because its in your heart and soul as well.
quote:

The Gorean way of thinking about life
isn't the M/s version of anything.
The Gorean way of thought does run the same
lines of Master-Mistress/slave and that is what makes GOR assoicated
with BDSM.
quote:

You can be a fine Gorean man or woman and
never keep a slave at all.
Of course You can be Gorean and not Own a slave or not Own anything and be a nomad for that matter, Ive never said You had to.
quote:

It's the character and ethics
Those character and ethics if You call Yourself Gorean were gained by John Normans GOR period, and even tho the ethics and character could be any Man at anytime in the hystory of Man and Woman You do not state that but state your self to be Gorean hence it is the Books You came to this conclusion with.
quote:

that matter, not the
slaves, or the whips, or the chains.
slaves , whips and chains do matter it is what makes Us Alternate folks in the first place and puts us aside from Vanilla folks.
quote:

I am well aware of what a Gorean free
woman does in a man's house. I lived with one for over a decade.

Great for You and I Lived with 2 Gorean Masters for over 27 years does this make My GOR any different to Me, No. But it does tell Me that I must of done sumthing Right in all those years.
quote:

I had a slave
who kept my books. She was better at it, and so I gave her the job.
And this has sumthing to do with ??
quote:

Hate to
burst your bubble, but in a Gorean household, the (male) head of the house has
the final word, and that includes his companion.
Bust My bubble??? You havent a clue about Me and I fully agree with this concept and lived it Leonidas but You see I am the head of My Home now because I am now a Widow twice and have no choice but to be such. Not Many of You Masters whom would come close to the kind of House hold that Im left to run.
quote:

If you have the books online I'd suggest you get them offline in a hurry.
Maybe You missed the part about having permission and Ive had such for 16 years now. Concider ME the exception.
quote:

I am saying these things to you, again, not because I think that it will do any
good in your case, but because I don't want other readers getting a false
impression of us.
And just what do You think You need to change in Me?? I am not Yours to change. And as far as any false impressions go I am sure that My Facts of GOR as I live them have just as much Value if not more then Your thoughts of GOR. You tempt to belittle My Life or thoughts falls way short of Your target and only goes to show Your value. JMO



Leonidas -> RE: Mea Culpa (8/2/2004 6:56:26 AM)

quote:

Gor is in My body mind and soul just as any book One follows
to live life by. Ill gander to say that You have never been to heavan or hell either but if christian and follow the bible damn sure will say you beleive in its and will one day be there because its in your heart and soul as well.


See my earlier comments about quoting the books as if they were gospel, Dread. You cannot meaningfully live your life by a set of fantasy novels. You can extract the philosophical underpinnings (though I don't know how you could unless you were educated in those philosophies already, or had a good guide). You can use some of the cultural elements to provide a common culture for a community (similar to the way that the original "Old Guard" used military principals to bind them together). Attempting to live your life by them as if they were the bible will just lead to fundamentalism, which is generally pitiful at best, dangerous at worst.

quote:

The Gorean way of thought does run the same lines of Master-Mistress/slave and that is what makes GOR assoicated with BDSM.


As is often the case, I can't really tell what you're trying to say here. We keep slaves. That isn't "our way of thought", it is just something that we do. This statement would be akin to saying that listening to and contributing to NPR makes you a democrat. It doesn't. If you do those things, you probably are a democrat, but it is because you are a democrat that you do them. You aren't a democrat because you do them.

quote:

Those character and ethics if You call Yourself Gorean were gained by John Normans GOR period, and even tho the ethics and character could be any Man at anytime in the hystory of Man and Woman You do not state that but state your self to be Gorean hence it is the Books You came to this conclusion with.


There is almost no, none, zip, nada, philosophy, or culture for that matter that JN made up himself in the Gor books. It all comes from our own history. Like most academics, he didn't really create anything new. HIs contribution was to synthesize several lines of thinking in interesting ways. Again, Dread, if you try to use them as a bible you're in serious danger of becoming a fundamentalist. JN will just become your L. Ron Hubbard, and then EString will be right, you'll be in the same boat with the Scientologists.

quote:

slaves , whips and chains do matter it is what makes Us Alternate folks in the first place and puts us aside from Vanilla folks.


Well again, that's like saying that the only thing that separates a Democrat from a Republican is that Democrats listen to NPR and Republicans don't. I think that most Democrats would tell you that their differences with Republicans go a little deeper than that.

quote:

You havent a clue about Me and I fully agree with this concept and lived it Leonidas but You see I am the head of My Home now because I am now a Widow twice and have no choice but to be such. Not Many of You Masters whom would come close to the kind of House hold that Im left to run.


Well, I have some clues about you, and I gain a few more in each of these exchanges. You are the single head of your household, but didn't I just see your "Free Companion" come here to defend you? Online thing, I take it? You are right that I don't know you too well, but after these many years, I have developed some ability to recognize the type.

quote:

Maybe You missed the part about having permission and Ive had such for 16 years now. Concider ME the exception.


I'm not going to dignify that Dread. I will say it again as plainly as I can. If you are infringing on his copyrights, it would be in your best interest to stop. Right now.

quote:

And as far as any false impressions go I am sure that My Facts of GOR as I live them have just as much Value if not more then Your thoughts of GOR.


It stands to reason that our opinions would differ about that. That is the nice thing about a public forum. Those reading along can draw their own conclusions.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas



FatherMichael -> RE: Mea Culpa (8/2/2004 9:00:24 AM)

Leo, I loved your orginal post.

Lets face it there are more flavors of players in D&S&M than there are adjectives to describe them. Like any other community some run to shallow easy depths....a little light bondage to the folks who those folks who make the rest of us hide our cats..just in case they take the phrase 'pussy whipped' too serious.

and for those who don't understand. well screw em. If a couple(s) can figure out the geometry and are willing to take the inherent risks, then pass 'em the KY and wish em luck. No matter what it is someone is going to object...some for legal/saftey reasons...well people get hurt with vanilla sex too...both physically and emotionally...some for moral reasons...well being immoral is the turn on for a lot of folks...some just because there is a bitchy side to the evolved monkey brain which wants to stop anybody having fun for any reason.

so we do what we will, and if you can't stand being judged, don't tell...or start developing a thicker skin.



MistressDREAD -> RE: Mea Culpa (8/2/2004 2:49:05 PM)

Steriotyping Me when You dont know Me is foolish and shows Your onesighted mindset and then to equal My thoughts and life to a political platform is funny to say the least.
Dignify what?? You have no need to state whats been said twice to no doubt as My words were quite plain the first time hence Ill not repeat them. You would like to make troubles where there is none wouldent You?
Knock Your self out Ive delt with those the like of You befor to quite a positive end.
I meaningly live My life how I choose and Your wanting to tempt to make that determinaton of whats right for My life choices are quite moot not to
mention those of Us whom choose to live any Lifestyle to the ways We desire. There are books for any given choice of Living and there are litterally millions of books of different ways that people choose to live that follow such books no matter what they were based off of or what research went into their application or fantasy. Yes John Norman was a Professor and relyed on the many concepts of the past to impliment His cronicles......is not that just fabulous!! How many folks you know even take the tiime to read into Latin hystory or the likes whom are main stream and not College Students or Teachers>or whom had the abilities to bring to current day that which enthralled the writer? Not many but I am sure that there are way more folks out there trying to find their nitch in life whom have grasped hold of the concepts written in the books and find them more life filling then say those of other cultures or religions or cults as You added. How many scientoligists are there in the world?? I would say that they are a well established Lifestyle that many agree apon and many read their books and follow their concepts to the tee of such. Is this wrong?? No just another way of living Life that satifies those Folks. Most books that any Group or Scociety that have been established or live under have pretty much started out as a fantasy book wrote by those beleivers into what they lived. Just because they were written a thousand years ago doesent bring any more facts to them then the original fantasy they were written about by the authors or the spirits of the authors whom suposivly guieded their hands and then had people follow them and then groups and then societies and then contries. That is a fact and not a fantasy as You would like to convince folks of only being in My head. I am fully aware of * Your kind as You mentioned about Me as well and those present can make their Own presumptions of such....... I am Gor and I am Gorean that is a Fact. I was such befor a computer was out there for the public to tell others about GOR, and I will be Gorean till I die. Dont like it to bad... and Yes I do have a Online FC. And now I have experianced both RealLife and now Online roleplay of such. Isent the computer a grand place to play and Live sumtimes!! ......snickers......I bet that You dont like it that Two People have found enjoyment in one anothers Gor in this manner as well do You? LOL!!!!



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