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RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 2:24:32 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

I'm of the opinion the government should do something like recognize a "legal household" and that household should contain consenting adults that want to be part of their household and dependant children if any. I believe that "legal household" members should not need to define their relationship to the government.

Agreed.

One thing about the "gay marriage" issue that gets put aside is it does not address in the slightest other living arrangements--polyamory, slavery, "open marriage", just to name a few--that a government-issued marriage license also represses.

Remove the marriage license and these issues go away almost by definition.

States already have tested the notion of "civil unions."  We already have the legal frameworks for a workable civil alternative to marriage.  All that is needed is to fit the pieces together and remove the religious sacrament of marriage from the realm of government bureaucracy.


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RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 2:27:30 PM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline 		You know what I wish?

I wish there was a way that we, as taxpayers, could bill the court costs back to these "christian" groups that sponsor this kind of time wasting, intaolerance-based legislation, and the constitutional court battles that always follow. Colorado got fleeced for over $3 million back in '92, when they tried to push through that fucking "legal to discriminate against gays" ammendment to the Colorado Constitution. It took the gay community three fucking years to get back our civil rights because of it. There have been God only knows how many more just like it.

I'd be willing to bet this shit would stop, once it started hitting them, and them alone, in their collection plates.

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RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 2:30:08 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

You know what I wish?

I wish there was a way that we, as taxpayers, could bill the court costs back to these "christian" groups that sponsor this kind of time wasting, intaolerance-based legislation, and the constitutional court battles that always follow. Colorado got fleeced for over $3 million back in '92, when they tried to push through that fucking "legal to discriminate against gays" ammendment to the Colorado Constitution. It took the gay community three fucking years to get back our civil rights because of it. There have been God only knows how many more just like it.

I'd be willing to bet this shit would stop, once it started hitting them, and them alone, in their collection plates.



I would back such legislation, as long as it provided for the same action to be taken against secular groups that sue over a monument and their legislation that causes these sort of expenses...

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RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 2:32:55 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

You know what I wish?

I wish there was a way that we, as taxpayers, could bill the court costs back to these "christian" groups that sponsor this kind of time wasting, intaolerance-based legislation, and the constitutional court battles that always follow. Colorado got fleeced for over $3 million back in '92, when they tried to push through that fucking "legal to discriminate against gays" ammendment to the Colorado Constitution. It took the gay community three fucking years to get back our civil rights because of it. There have been God only knows how many more just like it.

I'd be willing to bet this shit would stop, once it started hitting them, and them alone, in their collection plates.




         LOL, Bipo.  So your solution to unequal treatment for some is unequal treatment for others?  Or do you wish to stifle our ability as citizens to directly pass legislation by ballot by allowing financial ruin for any group that can't pull it off, or gets the language wrong the first time?

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RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 3:09:37 PM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		Wow Celtic,
Each time I think I could never agree with you, I AGREE with you...
Dear Lord I hope the conservative thing isn't communicable!

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RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 3:12:51 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Wow Celtic,
Each time I think I could never agree with you, I AGREE with you...
Dear Lord I hope the conservative thing isn't communicable!


(Obligatory Darth Vader hiss).....You underestimate the power of the dark side.....(More obligatory Darth Vader hiss)

(yeah, it's cheesy, but I couldn't resist)


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RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 3:22:27 PM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		 
TO Darth,
LOL!!!!!!!...I love it!

Luke the liberal Skywalker


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RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 3:26:00 PM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Frankly, I would rather see the government get out of the practice of regulating unions among consenting adults.

Marriage is for many more religious sacrament than civil compact.  That is as it is, and as it will be.  So be it.  As we should not have laws respecting the establishment of religion or the free exercise thereof, neither should we have government regulating religious sacrament.

I would much rather see marriage licenses eliminated than to see them granted to same-sex couples.  Why does government merit that power?



The biggest problem I see in this is trying to fight the Church's stance on same sex marriages, which is a tougher battle than the fight to acquire what marriage rights we have through the government.


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RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 3:51:53 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Marriage is a spiritual union between two (or more people) and the government has no call to step in and call something either legal or illegal when it comes to spiritual, personal matters between adults. I'd like to see it all wiped out. People want to set a civil contract in place, go for it. There are already steps you can take to do that. Harry, Barry, Sally and Jonie all want to marry each other, that should be fine with everyone who isn't Harry, Barry, Sally and Jonie because what they want to do, how they want to show their love is no ones, least of all the governments, business.

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RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 3:59:04 PM   
servantheart


Posts: 960
Joined: 10/26/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Wow Celtic,
Each time I think I could never agree with you, I AGREE with you...
Dear Lord I hope the conservative thing isn't communicable!


(Obligatory Darth Vader hiss).....You underestimate the power of the dark side.....(More obligatory Darth Vader hiss)

(yeah, it's cheesy, but I couldn't resist)





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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 4:09:26 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		While getting rid of legal government marriage may sound appealing on the surface it is an abysmally bad idea.

Things protected/provided by married status:
inheritance without a will
medical decision making and vistation rights (This all falls to blood relations without medical powers of attorney being executed)
employer insurance benefits
spousal privilege in legal matters (IOW you would be required to testify against your mate in court)
communal property rights ( a spouse who stays home and raises the children is entitled to nothing if 20 years down the line the relationship ends)
post death arrangements (once again this would fall back to blood relations)
tax benefits

Some of this could be handled by quite lengthy and complicated contracts but some of it is outside of what  two or more people can contract.

It would be great to get legal standing for poly relationship but that days is a long way off and we shouldn't cause chaos throughout the social structure of the nation by abandoning the legal concept of marriage.

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RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 4:44:02 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		I would vote for the marriage rights for gays, I was ecstatic when canada passed it.
While I can see the logic behind CL  points regarding civil union  I cant see the marrieds being happy having their rights taken away or replaced with having to go to an attorney, lawyer or seek legal help every time they come up against a hitch, the only ones who will be loving this is the lawyers, and who wants to please them!!
Lucy


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RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 4:51:47 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		The concept of "civil unions" offers a good model of how to provide the legal protections people want in all relationships while separating the religious institution of marriage from government bureaucracy.

Marriage was a sacrament long before it was a government license.  Let the sacrament stand by virtue of seniority, let the license stand aside, and let registered "civil unions"--or some evolution thereof--be the vehicle for the legal aspects of organizing a household.


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RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 4:56:20 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		(Bias alert: I am gay myself.)

I would definitely vote for gay marriage.

Others have pointed out the myriad practical/legal benefits that marriage confers. Some of these can be duplicated through careful lawyering, but doing so is burdensome and far from foolproof.

Permit me an example from my own family. When my aunt died, the doctor asked who was the next of kin. My aunt's longtime partner introduced herself. "No," said the doctor, "I need a member of the family." My aunt's partner pointed out that she had durable power of attorney. "That died when the patient did," the doctor replied. "Now really, who's a relative?"

It's hard to imagine that same scene unfolding if my aunt had been married to a man, or if her partner had been a legal spouse.

This did not happen, by the way, in some shadowed, homophobic past. It happened in 2006.

Gay marriage is not just about wills and hospital visits.

It is about dignity.

It's about legal recognition as "a member of the family."

* * *


Some posters have questioned whether the state should be in the business of recognizing/dignifying relationships. I can see where they're coming from, but for today, states do recognize relationships. Given that, I'd like to see them recognize gay ones as well.





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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 5:05:00 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Dc,Ive seen it happen to to my godmothers(lesbians) who have lived together for nearly 50 years, and agree with you.
Lucy


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<) )╯SUCH
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\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 7:00:13 PM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

The concept of "civil unions" offers a good model of how to provide the legal protections people want in all relationships while separating the religious institution of marriage from government bureaucracy.

Marriage was a sacrament long before it was a government license.  Let the sacrament stand by virtue of seniority, let the license stand aside, and let registered "civil unions"--or some evolution thereof--be the vehicle for the legal aspects of organizing a household.



Yet there are hundreds of same sex couples who will vehemently argue the fact that their relationship is just as sacred as a church sanctioned marriage between a heterosexual couple.
I don't know how common law works in the States but here in Canada the laws governing common law couples do offer some legal protection for couples though not as efficient as if a couple having a marriage license.

Part of the fight for same sex marriages here in Canada was to demand the same rights and accords automatically given to a man and woman who were married, nothing more and nothing less. We wanted our relationship to be recognized in the eyes of the state for being valid and to show that we need to treated equally like our married heterosexual counterparts.

Yes it is distasteful for wanting the government to be involved since it would take an earth shattering miracle to see the Church sanction same sex unions. Since this is the case, we have no choice but to work with the government to help us gain the rights and privileges others take for granted. And contrary to many people's beliefs, we are not out to destroy the sanctity of marriage, we just want to be treated with equality and with respect.


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RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 7:05:21 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Yet there are hundreds of same sex couples who will vehemently argue the fact that their relationship is just as sacred as a church sanctioned marriage between a heterosexual couple.

I would agree with those couples.  Relationships are sacred.


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RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 7:19:51 PM   
Racquelle


Posts: 600
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline 		I agree that the religious act of marriage should be something individual religious organizations get to decide on.  As far as the state goes, they regulate contract law.  In terms of how the state regulates the contract we call marriage, they do almost as poor a job as they regulate the contract we call parenthood.  In no other business arrangement of the potential value of a marriage, can we be expected to adhere to terms we never expressly agreed to.  What I favor is civil unions that occur entirely separately from the religious rite of marriage, the terms of which must be agreed to prior to the union.  A couple may choose to participate in one or both.  But couples of the same gender ought to have access to to the same protection and responsibilities of the contract that we currently call marriage. 

As to churches, I am quite proud that my church came out with a statement that any marriage recognized by the State of California can be performed in our sanctuary.

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RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/6/2008 7:21:01 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

I am quite proud that my church came out with a statement that any marriage recognized by the State of California can be performed in our sanctuary.


Cool! What denomination (if you don't mind my asking)?

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No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Elsewhere on the Ballot: Gay Marriage - 9/7/2008 1:19:14 AM   
Racquelle


Posts: 600
Joined: 4/21/2008
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quote:

Cool! What denomination (if you don't mind my asking)?
  Same as Obama.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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