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the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 2:51:29 PM   
bestbabync


Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/25/2007
Status: offline 		what do you guys think of this??

a Libertarian friend of mine and i was debating and discussing our concerns about there being so many uneducated voters, that we both agreed that we should go back to the old system. 

citizens vote for local representatives and then the local vote for the state representatives, then the state vote for the federal representatives and then the federal being the US senate & house vote for the vice president and the president.

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"A woman is the only thing I am afraid of that I know will not hurt me" Abraham Lincoln
"Choose Life, your mother did!"
www.howobamagotelected.com
http://www.lp.org/platform
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CaBR3z85c
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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 3:08:52 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		I think the idea is boneheaded.

Are voters "educated" on the "issues"? Rarely.

Are voters "educated" on the candidates? Probably not, although how you define "educated" in that context makes the point highly debateable.

However, educated or uneducated, wise or foolish, voters cast their ballots to elect the men and women they desire to see in office--or to keep the men and women they do not desire to see in office out--or to pass a referendum they favor. Voters cast their ballots to reflect their desire.

Within the spirit of democracy, it does not matter why a voter desires thus, so long as he or she expresses that desire diligently at the ballot box. While voters should always be encouraged to learn as much as possible about those for whom they vote, and those issues for which they vote, none of us has the moral right to sit in judgement on the means by which any voter arrives at his or her choice come election day.

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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 3:17:23 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		When was this system?

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 3:17:45 PM   
bestbabync


Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/25/2007
Status: offline 		the VP & Pres. were elected that way in the beginning


the reason was similar to the arguement against the "Walmart Moms"


_____________________________

"A woman is the only thing I am afraid of that I know will not hurt me" Abraham Lincoln
"Choose Life, your mother did!"
www.howobamagotelected.com
http://www.lp.org/platform
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CaBR3z85c

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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 3:19:03 PM   
bestbabync


Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/25/2007
Status: offline 		this is how many of our first Pres & VP's were elected

_____________________________

"A woman is the only thing I am afraid of that I know will not hurt me" Abraham Lincoln
"Choose Life, your mother did!"
www.howobamagotelected.com
http://www.lp.org/platform
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CaBR3z85c

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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 3:25:55 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

this is how many of our first Pres & VP's were elected

Strictly speaking, this is how the President and VP are elected today. However, many if not most states have laws binding the votes of their Electors to the popular vote, and even without such laws, the number of "faithless" electors that have contravened the will of the people is vanishingly small.

I am not comfortable with the notion that there should be a great many layers between the individual voter and the President for whom he votes. I do like the Electoral College system, because it ensures that all parts of the United States have relevance in an election--any state in any given election can be a "battleground state", and thus in any election can be the tipping point between one candidate or the other. However, the voters of a state should not have their votes diluted by multiple layers of representation within that state.

Further, I suspect, as your OP referenced the education level of the average voter, it is not so much the Electoral College system you seek so much as the restrictions on the franchise that originally were in place (i.e., women could not vote, non-landowners could not vote, free blacks could not vote)--and those restrictions are wholly inappropriate in this day and age.

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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 3:29:29 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

this is how many of our first Pres & VP's were elected


No.  I do not think that they were.  At least not according to the constitution. 

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to bestbabync)
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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 3:32:38 PM   
bestbabync


Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/25/2007
Status: offline 		oh no, i do not seek those restrictions silly.

i was just saying, the "Walmart Mom" arguement and other such irrational reasons for casting a vote would not apply anymore.

_____________________________

"A woman is the only thing I am afraid of that I know will not hurt me" Abraham Lincoln
"Choose Life, your mother did!"
www.howobamagotelected.com
http://www.lp.org/platform
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CaBR3z85c

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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 3:36:00 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

oh no, i do not seek those restrictions silly.

i was just saying, the "Walmart Mom" arguement and other such irrational reasons for casting a vote would not apply anymore.

Depending on your perspective, all reasons for casting a vote might be deemed irrational. I am sure there are those on this site who would count my vote for McCain as the depths of madness and the height of folly--and I am quite convinced that any vote for Obama is the exact same thing.

Ultimately, all we have are personal reasons to vote. So long as the man next to me votes, I am content.

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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 3:56:42 PM   
bestbabync


Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/25/2007
Status: offline 		i do not believe your vote for McCain is mad.  quite the contrary.  i believe u to be intelligent and very well informed on the issues.  i have read alot of your posts and find them oh sometimes very humorous but always very sane and well thought out.  i am thankful that citizens like u still exist!

i too will vote on November 4th...ha!

_____________________________

"A woman is the only thing I am afraid of that I know will not hurt me" Abraham Lincoln
"Choose Life, your mother did!"
www.howobamagotelected.com
http://www.lp.org/platform
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CaBR3z85c

(in reply to celticlord2112)
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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 4:19:00 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

i do not believe your vote for McCain is mad. quite the contrary. i believe u to be intelligent and very well informed on the issues. i have read alot of your posts and find them oh sometimes very humorous but always very sane and well thought out. i am thankful that citizens like u still exist!

i too will vote on November 4th...ha!

Thank you. (although don't push those rumors of my sanity too far....reputation ya know! )

And I am glad you will vote. This is good. I am glad that bipolarber, Owner59, Aynne88, et al will vote. I would much rather see people vote for Obama than not vote at all.

When all the posting and pontificating is done (including by me ), what is most important in this election, as in all elections, is that people VOTE.


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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 4:20:05 PM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

When all the posting and pontificating is done (including by me ), what is most important in this election, as in all elections, is that people VOTE.



...participation is the only thing that legitimises democracy...

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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 4:21:04 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

When all the posting and pontificating is done (including by me ), what is most important in this election, as in all elections, is that people VOTE.



...participation is the only thing that legitimises democracy...

Damn skippy on that!

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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 4:22:55 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

what do you guys think of this??

a Libertarian friend of mine and i was debating and discussing our concerns about there being so many uneducated voters, that we both agreed that we should go back to the old system. 

citizens vote for local representatives and then the local vote for the state representatives, then the state vote for the federal representatives and then the federal being the US senate & house vote for the vice president and the president.

That's not the US system and never has been. That sounds a lot like the soviet system as used in the USSR.

Under the original US Constitution, POTUS was the winner of the electoral college vote and VPOTUS was whoever came in second. The electors were chosen by any method approved by the individual state legislatures.

Senators were explictly  chosen by the state legislatures.

House members were to be chosen by the People of each state but teh method was undefined.

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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 4:24:58 PM   
SingleRarity


Posts: 320
Joined: 9/13/2006
Status: offline 		That was really cool CelticLord.  I'd always enjoyed your posts, but lately on all of the political threads, I admit, I'd been thinking you were a bit of bully.  As stupid as it sounds this post restored my like of you.  I also know that you could give a rats ass, but I just thought I'd say nice post!

Daddy's Ballerina, e..........who is going to stay out of the political threads.

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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 4:29:48 PM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline 		Oh great, now you made me see you in a different light.  Quit that will ya? In all seriousness, thank you and I absolutely agree.  I was reading a post on another thread today about Master's not allowing their slaves to vote, arghhhhhh.....I had to run, not walk, and sit on my hands to not post. Granted it was in Thadius's neighborhood, but still, I thought I was beyond shocked. Apparently not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

i do not believe your vote for McCain is mad. quite the contrary. i believe u to be intelligent and very well informed on the issues. i have read alot of your posts and find them oh sometimes very humorous but always very sane and well thought out. i am thankful that citizens like u still exist!

i too will vote on November 4th...ha!

Thank you. (although don't push those rumors of my sanity too far....reputation ya know! )

And I am glad you will vote. This is good. I am glad that bipolarber, Owner59, Aynne88, et al will vote. I would much rather see people vote for Obama than not vote at all.

When all the posting and pontificating is done (including by me ), what is most important in this election, as in all elections, is that people VOTE.



_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 4:34:14 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88
Oh great, now you made me see you in a different light. Quit that will ya?

And lose my sadist credentials? HA!

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RE: the old voting system? - 9/9/2008 4:37:59 PM   
bestbabync


Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/25/2007
Status: offline 		i made this post to hear what others thought about it. 

like i said it was a debate i had with a friend.  so when i read the post about the "Walmart Moms" the debate came back to me.

my side of the debate was the same, that all people have the right to vote.  my friend the Libertarian and i agreed to disagree.

_____________________________

"A woman is the only thing I am afraid of that I know will not hurt me" Abraham Lincoln
"Choose Life, your mother did!"
www.howobamagotelected.com
http://www.lp.org/platform
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CaBR3z85c

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RE: the old voting system? - 9/10/2008 3:16:29 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

When all the posting and pontificating is done (including by me ), what is most important in this election, as in all elections, is that people VOTE.



...participation is the only thing that legitimises democracy...


But does participation necessarily mean through the ballot box?

With party machines in charge of elections, (after all, that is what the elected parties are part of) they buy and manipulate elections and side line alternative views.

Great reform has always been won outside the legislature and then rubber stamped and credit claimed by the sitting government.

The day one believes democracy is only a vote is the day there is no democracy.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: the old voting system? - 9/10/2008 5:06:25 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		proportional voting would be good.

tho- we need to learn how to count 1st       glunk

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