RE: The Dividing Issue-Palin's view Abortion (Full Version)

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Ialdabaoth -> RE: The Dividing Issue-Palin's view Abortion (9/12/2008 10:08:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Would you mind explaining  that question? are you talking about women who have had abortions?
No Im not thick, Im just making sure I have the right end of the stick and verifying ...
Lucy




It's a pretty straightforward question. Did the lives of those mothers who have been saved by safer access to abortions deserve to be saved, or did they instead deserve to bleed out on the street, or to rot to death from the inside from sepsis?

In fact, it's not just a straightforward question, it's an obvious one, given the sorts of rhetoric we're hearing. So why don't we hear it more often?




Mercnbeth -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 10:14:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Unless woman lied to Planned Parenthood "Birth Control" is the #1 answer:

3% involved the mother's health
1% involved the baby's health
1% involved rape
95% were a matter of birth control

Source: http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/AbortionStatistics.htm#United%20States

Wow Merc,

What a lame link,and to an anti-abortion web site,using a source from  " Central Illinois Right To Life".

This discussion requires more than cut&paste jobs from anti-abortion websites and the like.

Some original thoughts,maybe?

Or treating this subject with some respect,perhaps?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The overwhelming majority of all abortions, (95%), are done as a means of birth control.
  • Only 1% are performed because of rape or incest;
  • 1% because of fetal abnormalities;
  • 3% due to the mother's health problems.
     
    Source: Central Illinois Right To Life

  • Obvious your research skills are lacking and unable to find a different source in contrast? According to the source the answers come from Planned Parenthood. What difference does the site make if the numbers come from a neutral source such as Planned Parenthood? Or is it your opinon they too have an agenda?

    I'm  anxiously awaiting your more detailed and less "lame" reference for us all to be educated! I always enjoy learning something and eagerly anticipate your correction. THANKS!

    Want an original thought? Feel free to read the other 4 posts I've made regarding a woman's right to turn off her internal incubation unit and kick out the resident.

    quote:

    kittinSol: They are implying that women use abortion as a REGULAR method of contraception - which is, of course, wrong.


    They aren't "implying" anything. They are reporting results. Don't like them? Sorry. The are not "wrong" they are reported.

    You are implying it is used as a "REGULAR" method. Can't help you with that.

    Standing by to see any other source with different quantitative results....




    kittinSol -> RE: The Dividing Issue-Palin's view Abortion (9/12/2008 10:14:56 AM)

    You're extrapolating sordid personal fantasies from a serious thread. It's offensive [:'(] .




    StrangerThan -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 10:32:26 AM)

    47 percent have had more than one abortion. 18 percent have had two or more. Those are statistics from the CDC. I don't think they have an agenda.

    I'm not saying ban it. My girlfriend and I discussed that option, decided together that we wanted the baby, and raised her together even though we weren't together most of that raising. I'm saying, put some personal responsibility into it. Regardless of how strongly you feel on this subject, it is the people on the fringes of both sides who refuse to find a common ground that the majority of the country can accept that makes this issue so divisive. Emotional statements are subjective in most cases. They don't deal with the fact that as personal as the account is to you, you can't convince an average guy standing on the street that its not what the other side says it is when they're showing clips of partial birth abortions and trotting out folks who do it over and over.

    What does the average person have to do with it? Well, pretty simple. He/she is a voter. Get enough of them on one side and you can do things like.. change the make up of the Supreme Court so that it no longer favors your position. Personally, I believe it is a personal decision. Personally, however, I don't write laws. What I see is a battle between two sides who refuse to compromise, even when common sense should tell you that banning it outright is just stupid, and arguing every little point along the way in order to keep it wide open is equally as stupid. It's not the fringes nor those who feel strongly about this topic that will eventually decide the vote on it. It's that average person in the street. Keep giving the other side enough amunition and enough of those average folks will decide for you. I don't see that as complex math.

    Shrug.




    kittinSol -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 10:37:37 AM)

    What's the methodology for coming up with the figures you quote? Measuring the incidence of 'contraception' abortions can't be easy: how does your website come up with the figure of 95%?  It's not clear. I know one thing for sure: abortion results from unintended pregnancy.

    quote:



    “The reality is that women don’t set out to have an abortion per se, but rather choose not to have a baby at that time. For many women, it is the only decision they can make, given their circumstances,” says Sharon Camp, president and CEO of the Guttmacher Institute. “This is not a political issue, but rather one that affects real women facing difficult choices. It’s time to bring our attention back to these women and address the underlying problem—unintended pregnancy. Focusing on preventing unintended pregnancy in the first place will reduce the need for women to make these tough choices.”



    Here are some clear and serious figures from a respectable source, not some anti-choice lobby. As you can see, the results aren't as easy to read as yours: that's because they are real results, not manichean fabrications.

    First of all, the good news:

    The number of induced abortions declined worldwide between 1995 and 2003, from nearly 46 million to approximately 42 million. About one in five pregnancies worldwide end in abortion.

    • For every 1,000 women of childbearing age (15–44) worldwide, 29 were estimated to have had an induced abortion in 2003, compared with 35 in 1995.

    • The decline in abortion incidence was greater in developed countries, where nearly all abortions are safe and legal (from 39 to 26 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15-44), than in developing countries, where more than half are unsafe and illegal (from 34 to
    29).
    Unintended pregnancy: the root of abortion.
    • More than one-third of the approximately 205 million pregnancies that occur worldwide annually are unintended, and about 22% of all pregnancies end in induced abortion.
    • Of the 23 million pregnancies that occur in developed countries, more than 40% are unintended, and 28% end in induced abortion.
    • Of the 182 million pregnancies that occur in developing countries, more than one-third are unintended, and 19% end in induced abortion (8% are safe procedures and 11% are unsafe).
    • The average woman must use some form of effective contraception for at least 20 years if she wants to limit her family size to two children, and 16 years if she wants four children.[9]
    • Two-thirds of unintended pregnancies in developing countries occur among women who are not using any method of contraception.
    • More than 100 million married women in developing countries have an unmet need for contraception, meaning they are sexually active; are able to become pregnant; do not want to have a child soon or at all; and are not using any method of contraception, either modern or traditional.
    • The reasons why women (married and unmarried) do not use contraceptives most commonly include concerns about possible health and side-effects and the belief that they are not at risk of getting pregnant.

    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html

    I urge everybody to read a full study done by the Guttmacher Institute on the reasons why women choose to abort in the U.S. to cut out the political bullshit. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/psrh/full/3711005.pdf




    Mercnbeth -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 10:42:14 AM)

    quote:

    What's the methodology for coming up with the figures you quote? Measuring the incidence of 'contraception' abortions can't be easy: how does your website come up with the figure of 95%?  It's not clear. I know one thing for sure: abortion results from unintended pregnancy.


    No doubt pregnancy is the number 1 cause for abortions. Irrelevant to the reasons given directly by woman who actually have had abortions, but a definite cause and effect.




    kittinSol -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 10:43:50 AM)

    Again, I suggest you go to the last link I attached, and that you do some serious reading, that is, if you really want to be informed on the subject.




    Vendaval -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 3:44:08 PM)

    General reply -
     
    About Planned Parenthood being about one issue only, nothing could be further from the truth.  For many years I was working 1-2 jobs while at the same time going to college for my transfer requirements.  Like millions of other Americans, despite working full time hours or more I had no medical insurance.  Planned Parenthood provided a sliding scale for yearly exams, pap smears and contraception.  They treated me for a bladder infection and discovered the PCOS before I knew exactly what was wrong.  They also monitored my blood pressure levels.
     
    They treated my best friend for a benign lump in her breast that required out-patient surgery.  They provided STI and HIV screenings for myself and partners when entering a new relationship. 
     
     
    For a better idea about their services for both women and men go here -

    http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/health-topics-11.htm




    caitlyn -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 7:53:46 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: kittinSol
    Either you haven't read the posts very thoroughly, or you're being deliberately pig-headed, but you are wrong.


    We are all well aware that you always think you are right, and anyone that doesn't agree with you is wrong. We got that the first five fucking hundred times. [;)]
     
    As this thread is about Governor Palin, there is an assumption that we are talking about abortions in the United States. As such, your world-wide statistics are not on point. Abortions world-wide is a completely different issue, with a completely different dynamic.
     
    But, you can try again if you choose. Please provide statistics, from any source you choose, that suggests that some good percentage of abortions in the United States are related to rape, incest or the life of the mother. Please provide statistics of any kind, that disproves the notion that the vast majority of abortions in the United States are elective and involve none of the afore mentioned criteria.
     
    You won't of course, because you can't.
     
    I will offer you a statistic to chew on though. One-hundred percent of aborted babies, end up dead. A heart that may have been beating, is no more. A life that would have been, never will be.
     
    If that means I don't get it ... that's fine. I hope I never do.




    kittinSol -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 8:12:20 PM)

    Such a shame you ignored this, three or four posts above: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/psrh/full/3711005.pdf
    It's a study about the issue in the United States. Perhaps it will help you understand a few facts.




    caitlyn -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 8:50:52 PM)

    I didn't ignore, it ... it actually supports my position.
     
    Not wanting, or not being able to afford a child, are not reasons to get an abortion, they are reasons not to get pregnant in the first place.




    Owner59 -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 9:16:39 PM)

     


    You can`t argue this from just one or two points.

    It`s dis-honest and not fair.

    All scenarios and situations must be taken into accounted and shouldn`t be neglected.


    Every situation is unique.No two people alike.Not everyone is as careless as you describe.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The anti-choice types think that abortions will end,if out-lawed.

    It`s just not true.They are legal,in order to make them safe.

    The Abstinence Only,Just Say Know"policy,is no policy at all.

    People are going to have sex,no matter what.Period.

    To deny this is counter-productive and doesn`t prevent un-wanted pregnancies.

    To just say they shouldn`t have gotten prego to begin with really isn`t an answer,helps little and shows little understanding.




    chiaThePet -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/12/2008 10:01:32 PM)

     
    I was pondering on what percentage of the unborn might have registered to vote.

    Contributing to the overall outcome of the election and the selection of our leaders.

    Ironic isn't it.

    chia* (the pet)




    caitlyn -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/13/2008 6:07:11 AM)

    Believe it or not, you can actually have sex, without getting pregnant. [;)] It will get you dumped sometimes ... I've been dumped a good half-dozen times because I refused to have unprotected sex.
     
    But, like those wanting gun control, I don't think the pro-life people will see a change in policy ... at least not in my lifetime. People on the pro-choice side want the safety net, will consider the pro-life people hard cases, ignore all statistics showing that abortion in America is really just elective birth control ... and of course, carefully avoid any mention of the baby. They will likely continue to win the day.
     
    Time to use Number 6's expression. [;)]
     
    "American politics ... it's shallow, but then it tries to be."




    StrangerThan -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/13/2008 6:12:10 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Vendaval

    General reply -
     
    About Planned Parenthood being about one issue only, nothing could be further from the truth.  For many years I was working 1-2 jobs while at the same time going to college for my transfer requirements.  Like millions of other Americans, despite working full time hours or more I had no medical insurance.  Planned Parenthood provided a sliding scale for yearly exams, pap smears and contraception.  They treated me for a bladder infection and discovered the PCOS before I knew exactly what was wrong.  They also monitored my blood pressure levels.
     
    They treated my best friend for a benign lump in her breast that required out-patient surgery.  They provided STI and HIV screenings for myself and partners when entering a new relationship. 
     
     
    For a better idea about their services for both women and men go here -

    http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/health-topics-11.htm


    While this is a serious discussion, I would like to offer my favorite memory of planned parenthood.

    Seen taped to the broken front door on a Planned Parenthood office in Boston, a hand-written sign that read.

    "Use rear entrance".




    kittinSol -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/13/2008 4:01:14 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: caitlyn

    Not wanting, or not being able to afford a child, are not reasons to get an abortion



    To some women, these are reasons - there are as many 'reasons' as there are women. You can sit in judgement of them all you like - if you ever happen to get pregnant (nobody's perfect, not even you) who is telling you to have a termination? It's your body, your problem. Whether abortion is legal or not, women will do it when they need to - your little argument that the more dangerous it is, the less likely it is to happen is flawed, the figures show it, not to say offensive. I'm thankful for the freedom I enjoy. And on that note, the case is closed.




    Thadius -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/13/2008 4:09:34 PM)

    quote:

    To some women, these are reasons - there are as many 'reasons' as there are women.


    So wouldn't claiming that one woman is or isn't for women's issues be purely subjective, and biased based on one's own opinions?

    Just an observation.




    Lucylastic -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/13/2008 7:13:18 PM)

    The thing is that we arent trying or wanting to limit any womans choice because of our opinions, we want women to have the choice, the control over what ends up happening when we get pregnant. Not making decisions for others despite there are a kagillion stories for each and every pregnancy.

    Not taking away the rights over our own bodies just because we are incubating. reducing us to mere machines until the "rightful" owner comes into the world. Until that baby is viable outside my womb, its MY body, my decision. And no one is going to take that choice away from me, or my daughter, or my grandaughter.
    Also bowing out of this.
    Lucy




    caitlyn -> RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/13/2008 7:22:52 PM)

    Nice use is half a quote, as a quote. [;)] ...L




    farglebargle -> RE: The Dividing Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion (9/13/2008 8:15:36 PM)

    Who owns your body? You, or the Government?

    And if it's you, how come the Government can tell you what to do with your body?

    Oh, because of the developing foetus? ( my firefox somehow got the en_GB dictionary? )

    So, the Government owns your foetus?

    Now, I can't speak for others, but for one, *I* am not comfortable with this 'Commie' notion of collective ownership of the Unborn.

    Among other questions, when does the Government surrender title to a person? Never?

    It seems inconsistent with both the notions of Freedom and Liberty which are supposedly predicated on private property rights and sounds a lot like the 14th amendment didn't quite have the expected result.

    Now, Sarah Palin comes from a Welfare State where they hire these Washington DC Lobbyists to get them more money from the Feds than they pay in -- so the idea of Government Entitlement is one she's embraced whole heartedly ( I heard they were getting back $1.10 for every dollar sent to the Feds... a 10% rate of return... Not bad --- Unless you're one of the Sucker Americans paying taxes to support her Earmark Abuse, eh)





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