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ORIGINAL: Thadius

Uhm.. your second chart shows increases under Carter (I seem to remember him winning the election in '76) and uhm if I am not mistaken didn't Clinton win in '92? Let's add one more element to those charts... See that big spike around '94 and how it plummeted down sharply... who was writing the spending bills again during these ups and downs?

I am not doubting the validity of your charts, well perhaps a bit skeptical because of their source, there is alot of data missing from them. 

Just sayin.

P.S. Let's also not forget a couple of wars being in that mess someplace.  My point being that spending is out of frigun control, yes the republicans did alot of it in 2004 which is why they lost in 2006, but I would also point out that the Dems are just as bad about spending and the candidate they have nominated has already promised to increase spending in almost everything.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

Your just too jaded fearghus ..Politics have not really changed in America since the beginning...and we've done pretty good. It has allowed us to excel like no other country in history.

It is people that don't give up that make the true changes. Our wise founders wanted decisions to be difficult and slow and it has served us well.

Butch

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ORIGINAL: fearghus

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: fearghus

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


This goes against all the evidence, socialized medicine in the developed world, in all comparable evidence and every statistic, far exceeds private medicine.

Not when factored into the context of corruption level in government and tax ratio.  I am sure you can provide much data to support your theory, and I trust that you understand I could cite just as many examples.  However, neither of us would convince the other that we are right - so the exercise becomes rather moot.

The average American pays 100% more than the average Brit for their healthcare and not all Americans are covered at that and something like 70% more than the French and 60% more than the Germans. I could go on. Even the American Medical Association has lamented about how Americans get a raw deal through private healthcare.

Of course I won't convince you, even though the evidence shows your wrong so I'm not going to post all the evidence again, its a waste of time. I can't quite understand why so many Americans blindly believe in private healthcare when just about every other country in the developed world has state universal care as the main provider because it has proved the most efficient and effective way to provide world class healthcare to their citizens.

You aren't a share holder in a private health company are you? Because they are the ones that profit from private healthcare, not a company's customers.

*sigh*

And thus begins the rhetoric.  And the flinging of statistical 'evidence'.  It becomes tiresome quickly.

I am particularly frustrated by statements like "... though the evidence shows you're wrong ... " as that is only an indication that you are looking to be right rather than discuss the issue in an open-minded fashion.

If being right is your goal - then hey!  I declare you "right".

Now, for those of us wishing to continue with the discussion of general political philosophies, perhaps we can move back into that area.

quote:

You say you believe socialized medicine would make the American healthcare system worse. You have no evidence of that, just a gut feeling. The evidence is out there to show socialized healthcare provides better healthcare than private health companies. You're welcome to your prejudices but what is the point of discussing any political philosophies if in the one area where there is clear meansurable evidence that one philosophy does actually deliver concrete results, you reject it for you own prejudices? That suggests you would reject everything that doesn't support your view of the world, no matter what evidence is provided.

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ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

You say you believe socialized medicine would make the American healthcare system worse. You have no evidence of that, just a gut feeling. The evidence is out there to show socialized healthcare provides better healthcare than private health companies. You're welcome to your prejudices but what is the point of discussing any political philosophies if in the one area where there is clear meansurable evidence that one philosophy does actually deliver concrete results, you reject it for you own prejudices? That suggests you would reject everything that doesn't support your view of the world, no matter what evidence is provided.

Just a quick question.  Why is it that folks from nations with socialized medicine come to the US for certain treatments and operations again?

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: fearghus

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: fearghus

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


This goes against all the evidence, socialized medicine in the developed world, in all comparable evidence and every statistic, far exceeds private medicine.

Not when factored into the context of corruption level in government and tax ratio.  I am sure you can provide much data to support your theory, and I trust that you understand I could cite just as many examples.  However, neither of us would convince the other that we are right - so the exercise becomes rather moot.

The average American pays 100% more than the average Brit for their healthcare and not all Americans are covered at that and something like 70% more than the French and 60% more than the Germans. I could go on. Even the American Medical Association has lamented about how Americans get a raw deal through private healthcare.

Of course I won't convince you, even though the evidence shows your wrong so I'm not going to post all the evidence again, its a waste of time. I can't quite understand why so many Americans blindly believe in private healthcare when just about every other country in the developed world has state universal care as the main provider because it has proved the most efficient and effective way to provide world class healthcare to their citizens.

You aren't a share holder in a private health company are you? Because they are the ones that profit from private healthcare, not a company's customers.

*sigh*

And thus begins the rhetoric.  And the flinging of statistical 'evidence'.  It becomes tiresome quickly.

I am particularly frustrated by statements like "... though the evidence shows you're wrong ... " as that is only an indication that you are looking to be right rather than discuss the issue in an open-minded fashion.

If being right is your goal - then hey!  I declare you "right".

Now, for those of us wishing to continue with the discussion of general political philosophies, perhaps we can move back into that area.

You say you believe socialized medicine would make the American healthcare system worse. You have no evidence of that, just a gut feeling. The evidence is out there to show socialized healthcare provides better healthcare than private health companies. You're welcome to your prejudices but what is the point of discussing any political philosophies if in the one area where there is clear meansurable evidence that one philosophy does actually deliver concrete results, you reject it for you own prejudices? That suggests you would reject everything that doesn't support your view of the world, no matter what evidence is provided.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I know I'm right, I knew I was right in the beginning, evidence is on my side.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: Thadius

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You say you believe socialized medicine would make the American healthcare system worse. You have no evidence of that, just a gut feeling. The evidence is out there to show socialized healthcare provides better healthcare than private health companies. You're welcome to your prejudices but what is the point of discussing any political philosophies if in the one area where there is clear meansurable evidence that one philosophy does actually deliver concrete results, you reject it for you own prejudices? That suggests you would reject everything that doesn't support your view of the world, no matter what evidence is provided.

Just a quick question.  Why is it that folks from nations with socialized medicine come to the US for certain treatments and operations again?

You don't get it. We are talking about healthcare systems, not medical procedures. If you are rich, you can afford anything. It is only when you are rich do you have a choice. Most Americans don't have a choice and wouldn't be able to afford those procedures the rich buy anyway. Many of those Europeans who go to America for certain new medical procedures do so out of the desperation of one last shot at staying a live and very often they fail because they are going for the latest treatment which is often still experimental.

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ORIGINAL: Brain

I use the Canadian health-care system and I can see whatever doctor I want whenever I want.  And I've never had to pay anything or wait an unreasonably long  time.  It's really sickening that the wealthiest country in the world is too cold and callous to give its own citizens the same health care is politicians are entitled to.  Disgraceful and shameful to the United States the only industrialized country in the Western world not to give its citizens a human right like health care. George Bush and Dick Cheney talk about Hillary care and socialized medicine but they are hypocrites because they use health care provided by the government themselves.  Disgraceful   PBS Frontline Healthcare around the World
FRONTLINE presents SICK AROUND THE WORLD Tuesday, April 15, 2008, at 9 PM ET on PBS.WATCH IT ONLINE http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/     

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ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

You say you believe socialized medicine would make the American healthcare system worse. You have no evidence of that, just a gut feeling. The evidence is out there to show socialized healthcare provides better healthcare than private health companies. You're welcome to your prejudices but what is the point of discussing any political philosophies if in the one area where there is clear meansurable evidence that one philosophy does actually deliver concrete results, you reject it for you own prejudices? That suggests you would reject everything that doesn't support your view of the world, no matter what evidence is provided.

Just a quick question.  Why is it that folks from nations with socialized medicine come to the US for certain treatments and operations again?

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ORIGINAL: fearghus

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ORIGINAL: Brain

I use the Canadian health-care system and I can see whatever doctor I want whenever I want.  And I've never had to pay anything or wait an unreasonably long  time.  It's really sickening that the wealthiest country in the world is too cold and callous to give its own citizens the same health care is politicians are entitled to.  Disgraceful and shameful to the United States the only industrialized country in the Western world not to give its citizens a human right like health care. George Bush and Dick Cheney talk about Hillary care and socialized medicine but they are hypocrites because they use health care provided by the government themselves.  Disgraceful   PBS Frontline Healthcare around the World
FRONTLINE presents SICK AROUND THE WORLD Tuesday, April 15, 2008, at 9 PM ET on PBS.WATCH IT ONLINE http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/     

A strong opinion! (like my postings ... opinions).

It is not disguised as 'fact'.

Thank you Brain!  While I may disagree - at least we are not pretending ;)  And also an interesting point about the health care provided to government officials.

I have heard annecdotes like yours about Canada on both sides of the issue of socialized medicine, and I am glad to hear all sides.

This being ONE of the issues I posted opinions about, I look forward to hearing more opinions about some of the other issues.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

You say you believe socialized medicine would make the American healthcare system worse. You have no evidence of that, just a gut feeling. The evidence is out there to show socialized healthcare provides better healthcare than private health companies. You're welcome to your prejudices but what is the point of discussing any political philosophies if in the one area where there is clear meansurable evidence that one philosophy does actually deliver concrete results, you reject it for you own prejudices? That suggests you would reject everything that doesn't support your view of the world, no matter what evidence is provided.

Just a quick question.  Why is it that folks from nations with socialized medicine come to the US for certain treatments and operations again?

Hmmm I wonder why people in the US have to go to Thailand for good inexpensive medical care.

Butch

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ORIGINAL: Thadius

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

You say you believe socialized medicine would make the American healthcare system worse. You have no evidence of that, just a gut feeling. The evidence is out there to show socialized healthcare provides better healthcare than private health companies. You're welcome to your prejudices but what is the point of discussing any political philosophies if in the one area where there is clear meansurable evidence that one philosophy does actually deliver concrete results, you reject it for you own prejudices? That suggests you would reject everything that doesn't support your view of the world, no matter what evidence is provided.

Just a quick question.  Why is it that folks from nations with socialized medicine come to the US for certain treatments and operations again?

Hmmm I wonder why people in the US have to go to Thailand for good inexpensive medical care.

Butch

I would suggest that costs have gotten a bit crazy because of some rather insane malpractice lawsuits that have spiked the costs for doctors to be covered by insurance.  There are other reasons, but I think we can agree that this one is a big contributor.

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ORIGINAL: Thadius

So it has nothing to do with having to wait for an operation, it is just that they have a choice?  Gotcha.  For the record, any person (citizen or not) can go to any hospital here and receive treatment. 

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ORIGINAL: Thadius
What do you think causes those experimental or new procedures to become available here?  In other words, what do you think is responsible for all of the advancements and research that is taking place?