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Punitive Relationships - 9/14/2008 2:01:02 PM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
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Recently I have been receiving a good deal more mail than usual. It’s the Duminants, they want me back. Most of them seem to think I need some form of “correction” or “punishment” and that they will be “firm but fair” in “keeping me in line”. This is usually because they are “naturally dominate”.    

Now punishment/correction is a whole world of role play in and of itself. Last night I was involved in a bit of punishment play. I call it punishment play, rather than punishment, because I would have gotten the snot kicked out of me whether Missturbation had been 72 minutes late or not. It just so happened that because Missturbation was 72 minutes late that I had to yelp “36 .. because Missturbation was late” where usually I am just allowed to yelp “Ouch! mother fucker!”. It added a depth to the scene .. i.e. that watching me get the snot knocked out of me might encourage Missturbation to check her watch a little more frequently  in future (like say .. more often than 72 minutes)

Usually I don’t go in for this kind of thing very much, I don’t see the point of using supposed crimes as excuses for “punishments” which is actually just play. Punishment is about revenge, correction is about re-education.  This is not a debate about how to punish vs correct. ( and please Rice In The Shoe Is The Ultimate Punishment Guy …. we know … you told us already) Anyhow … Punitive relationships ... personally I don’t go in for them, because when I fuck up (or think I have) I knock seven bells out of myself about it. Being in a relationship where the main role of the Dom was being vigilant for wayward behaviour and the base assumption being that without close guidance rule breaking and naughtiness would be upon me at any moment …  well it would infuriate me.

I spent most of Saturday with a couple who constantly engaged in what I call “punitive play”. Throughout a munch and onto a club in the evening he was constantly observing her for punishable offences and then dishing out said punishments throughout the day … only half paying attention I can recall 8 and for several hours we weren’t around them and in the club I was working hard on not losing count between 1 and 36 (which is half of 72 … the number of minutes late Missturbation was).  Now these two obviously enjoy this dynamic (they are in that gooey honeymoon period thing where they keep gazing at each other and going all silent) and thinking about it, I would love to have some insight as to why.

How do others use punishment as a form of foreplay?
How do you react to having it as a theme for a scene or role play?
Would anyone who felt they had a relationship based on a punitive and repentant interplay be able to describe the dynamic?

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/14/2008 2:50:23 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		 I love the word that LA came up with last week: funishment.  It’s a perfect word, differentiating pain play from corrective measures.    

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/14/2008 2:55:14 PM   
IvyMorgan


Posts: 729
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
Status: offline 		I did film work where I was punished.  The infraction was totally made up for the benefit of the "plot" of the film.

It really did not work for me, I felt like I had to protest and prove my innocence, and, well, nothing felt "right" about it.

I'm of the school of thought that punishment and play don't mix.  You can beat me black and blue as a punishment, and that works fine, but don't mix punishment and play in my head space. 

I don't think I could cope in a relationship where I was constantly being nit picked for things I was doing wrong.  I have that at home, to the point where, if I ask my sister if she still needs the ice cream or can I put it away for her, the vibe of the house is such that this is me, criticising her for leaving the ice cream on the counter.

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/14/2008 2:55:59 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I didn't come up with it, just spreading the word, and I think it's exactly the term for this sort of dynamic.  I can enjoy "funishment" for brief periods when everyone knows it's just a big joke and tease and no one's really taking it seriously.  But it would be tiring and stressful for anything beyond that. 

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/14/2008 3:51:27 PM   
missturbation


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From: another planet
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quote:

It just so happened that because Missturbation was 72 minutes late that I had to yelp “36 .. because Missturbation was late” where usually I am just allowed to yelp “Ouch! mother fucker!”.


 I'm sorry
 
quote:

How do you react to having it as a theme for a scene or role play?

Punishment for me has never been part of play or role played. I have always received 'insert number' strokes of the cane for any infringement.
Punishment as part of a scene was a whole new thing to me until last night. Being completely honest it was a total mind fuck for me to see, or should i say hear in the main you punished for my infringement. I felt extremely guilty hearing you count to 36 and when you helped to 'warm' my back i felt guilty again that you had to do it.
At the time it didn't feel like we were 'playing' at anything, it was very intense for me. I guess thats a sign of a good roleplay / scene when you are truly lost in the role /scene.
So to answer up until last night i would  have said punishment and play / a scene never really mixed for me. However when the head space and mind fuck we were presented with can be used to such great result i think it can be fantastic.
As a side note at least on your 36 you repeated the correct line, i couldn't even get that right




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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/14/2008 4:36:11 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		is this something for wikipedia  lol

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/14/2008 4:50:56 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

. Last night I was involved in a bit of punishment play. I call it punishment play, rather than punishment, because I would have gotten the snot kicked out of me whether Missturbation had been 72 minutes late or not. It just so happened that because Missturbation was 72 minutes late that I had to yelp “36 .. because Missturbation was late” where usually I am just allowed to yelp “Ouch! mother fucker!”. It added a depth to the scene .. i.e. that watching me get the snot knocked out of me might encourage Missturbation to check her watch a little more frequently  in future (like say .. more often than 72 minutes)


mmmmmmm it might cause her to chcck her watch.... but that doesn't mean she will be there any sooner.... I can see it now

"mmmmmmm 100 minutes late........... oh this should be fun..."  knock knock.... " I am here"

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/14/2008 5:12:35 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Punishtration is the way to handle it. A violent fucking while you curse her.

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/14/2008 5:25:50 PM   
SlaveIndigochild


Posts: 272
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quote:

ORIGINAL: softness
Punishment is about revenge, correction is about re-education.



Dear softness;
(have sent mail by the way).
derrr yes and i suppose she thinks it funny (Miss t that is).
Anyway have isolated the crux, or what i think is the crux, of your thesis above....
and actually we find the punishment play thing quite unnecessary thus far. Simply because i am an innate slave type (allegedly) and therefore the likelihood of needing to be punished might prove to be rare. Actually i simply hope so since:
1. punishment when done properly really does hurt (in quite a bad way).
2. i would feel emotionally awful (in a bad way) with regard to having let Master down in a way that needed punishing.
3. we communicate well enough for me to know that we both feel the same way about punishment being a negative reinforcer (blah blah...fill in the rest of basic behavourist theory) likely to be a course of actioon leading to diminishing returns.
4. i will eventually get around to writing the book (and signing limited copies) about the indirect relationship between punishment and corrected behaviours in/out of bdsm.

However (taking a mid lecture breath) correction is about re-education i agree. i am allowed to make mistakes. Now what a fab idea this is. How do i know they are mistakes? because Master illustrates, shows me, gives examples of what He wants instead of the 'wrong' behaviour. How great is that? i mean, lets face it, i am innately slavish and love to serve. i therefore come complete (it might even be genetic methinks) with a series of skills which make me look like that television witch (you are much too young to remember but please let me prattle) who used to wiggle her nose and tidy a room in an instance. But i am not, repeat not, innately submissive. i come equipped with opinions, beliefs, skills, and a whole wardrobe of barbie doll outfits which i don't naturally or easily surrender. Thus far in this divine relationship i haven't experienced my stubborness-to-hold-onto my-skills to be causing to much of a chasm. i surrender my will not my skill. That deserves a line all to itself:
i surrender my will not my skill.
It's fun fun fun being corrected so that i realise the difference between the two and learn that i can, should, it is better for both of us, if i hang onto my skills. being together often involves lessons in how to surrender my will and processes that do that come in a wide rnge and variety of surprising forms. (Breath play is one of the rawest).
OK end of lecture. time for sleep. Take care dear softness. i believe in you.
Indigo.

< Message edited by SlaveIndigochild -- 9/14/2008 5:26:30 PM >

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/14/2008 5:33:23 PM   
silkncarol


Posts: 318
Status: offline 		I can understand correction or funishment as a form of play......but i personally wouldn't want it done as a real punishment for a serious offense. I would find it stressful to always feel like i'm walking on eggshells around my Dominant.  It might even mess with my self-esteem and self-worth as a submissive to constantly be picked at....

I don't understand those Dominants who feel they need to find a reason for BDSM play.......He's the Dominant....he doesn't really need a reason, other than he wants to or finds it amusing....

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/14/2008 5:33:44 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		A punishment dynamic doesn't work for me. I am not willing to be punished for anything other than willful disobedience and since I really do respect him, and he doesn't make stupid decisions that I resent, I have never been willfully disobedient.

But even a role play punishment doesn't work for me, I take it to heart. And he could do without me needing reassurance for days afterwards that he really isn't mad at me, it was just for fun. So we change stuff around. Instead of naughty schoolgirl not doing her homework, the professor gives me his special one on one, how to focus on studying course. Same stuff gets done, same schoolgirl outfit, but I don't feel as though I've failed him.

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/14/2008 5:38:05 PM   
SlaveIndigochild


Posts: 272
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

So to answer up until last night i would  have said punishment and play / a scene never really mixed for me.


i totally love it when there are no edges. what i mean is that i totally love it when play merges into raw sadism. i love it when bdsm is inserted into an everyday context. Where there are no edges this is where the edginess really lays for me.

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/14/2008 9:47:16 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Punishtration is the way to handle it. A violent fucking while you curse her.
~drool~........Tempting

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/14/2008 10:51:45 PM   
pompeii


Posts: 934
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Silicon Valley, San Jose, California
Status: offline 		Funishment looks to me to be a tool, just as the leash and collar are, just as the fur lined cuffs are, just as my cock is ... it's all a tool to the same end goal. So, if punishment for fun works, well then, it's a tool just the same.

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/15/2008 12:09:57 AM   
Kalista07


Posts: 4240
Joined: 7/1/2007
Status: offline 		i'm not deliberatly trying to be obtuse here..... We joke and play a lot in our relationship....Sometimes i push it just to see the reaction on His face...(for example, we were going somewhere recently and i told Him that whatever He had done was okay, but the minute we got home He was expected to get nekid, get on His knees and beg forgiveness) He simply responded by poking my arm and telling me he thinks it's "cute" when i get our roles reversed...

In all honestly, i couldn't do punishment play. The look in His eyes when i've disappointed Him are enough to make me beat myself until monkeys fly out of someone's ass.....Softness, i understand this was not Your choice of activities to engage in, and i guess had it been me....Well, i would have been confused and sad....

Could be me...Could be lack of sleep.
Kali


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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/15/2008 12:10:26 AM   
SlaveIndigochild


Posts: 272
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

A punishment dynamic doesn't work for me. I am not willing to be punished for anything other than willful disobedience and since I really do respect him, and he doesn't make stupid decisions that I resent, I have never been willfully disobedient.


i empathise with this. if i once disobeyed Him willingly then it would be the dynamic broken. i am made fully aware of those times when my behavour has been an infringement but there has been no punishment and it has been explained to me that i have no control and will not be given an opportunity to top. Asking (in any form of covert fashion0 would not be responded to. As above, i respect my Master and do not therefore 'play' with processes such as disobedience and punishment.

< Message edited by SlaveIndigochild -- 9/15/2008 12:11:02 AM >

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/15/2008 12:11:32 AM   
angelslave77


Posts: 478
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		we use funishment during a scene but as for real punishment, like you softness I  beat the hell outta myself if I fuck up I dont need him doing it for me. I am a hundred times crueler to myself than anyone else could ever be.

I do however look to Sir for  motivation at times though but thats a whole different thing

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/15/2008 7:14:57 AM   
Deliena


Posts: 623
Joined: 6/16/2007
From: Darlington, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Oh - angelslave77 said what i wanted to, thanks! 

i ended up taking some funishment last night for the deadly sin of having gone to bed after locking the front door and not waiting in the hall (Master had asked me to turn off the lamp and lock the door whilst He attended to the back door and other lights but not given me any further instructions) after a thoroughly enjoyable beating with the riding crop for this "offense" i informed Him that what he was doing was the topic of a CM thread and that He might find it interesting, His answer was the only thing He found interesting at this point was how difficult i was finding it to get in a comfortable position to sleep! LOL

We aren't a "punitive" relationship, but i've always liked the idea of being punished for being bad.  i find this a cathartic way to play and it helps work out at lot of stuff that goes on in my otherwise fairly noisy head.  In the same way as i love to be called a filthy slut, i love to be told i'm bad and that i deserve some horrible punishment which will make me a better person/slave/cunt/whatever (depending on the scene).  Not sure i'm explaining why i enjoy it though - does that help a little Softness?

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/15/2008 7:33:00 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		I distinguish "punishment play" from real corrective(disciplinary)/punishment measures.  Like catize, and others, I have taken to trying to incorporate LA's word "funishment" and its definition into my mindset to distinguish between the play and the real.

When it comes to play, I would inform the submissive that screwing up on a particular day or evening would result in her being "punished".  Since she was aware of the fact that I had to be extremely pushed to ever go to punishment rather than discipline, she knew that this was to be for fun and the purpose became to see how far she could go during this particular day/evening to "earn" punishment.  Given the intricacies involved, I can see where the use of "funishment" is going to be so much easier than making sure we are on the right wavelength with the other scenario. 

Now, as to punishment (real) and discipline.  Unlike you, softness I do not see punishment as revenge.  I see it as a measure taken when disciplinary measures have not worked OR the infraction committed is so severe as to warrant punishment.  It has never occurred within my dynamics without discussion beforehand as to why it was going to happen.  But it was never done out of "revenge" or, like a great many other...more fun...things in D/s & BDSM, because "I could".  I don't like having to go to punishment...much preferring the correction that disciplinary measures bring... and have found that, through good communication lines, I can avoid having to.

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RE: Punitive Relationships - 9/15/2008 7:45:52 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
~ Fast Reply ~
 
In the 'macro', punishment is not a desired part of our relationship. From day one, punishment was a consequence for actions. It was instilled in beth that punishment represents failure from both ends of the flogger. When it comes to the cause, for all the infinite detailed examples it really boils down to a basic one - respect. Disrespect for me, or more important disrespect of our relationship, is not something that is 'rewarded' by a sensation that we both desire and find fulfilling on some level. If beth caused me to wait 100 minutes for anything, the resulting 'punishment' would be nothing either of us would want to experience.

What has been referred as 'funishment' falls into what I would categorize as sadistic play. Being sadistic, I employ that technique commonly and it can be anything I happen to think of at the time; from holing a string between her teeth that if dropped would have weights pull nipples and other tender bits, not given permission to orgasm under direct stimulation, not using the indoor bathroom facilities...like I said, whatever warped idea happens to be going through my mind at any time during the day. Some may consider the result of that play as 'punishment'. I won't argue the semantics but there is a major difference beyond the actions.

The first difference it basic. I set up the dynamic in the later case. I was in control. The resulting sensations are as I determine at the intensity level I determine. In the first case, showing up late, I have no control - beth does; and that is not a desired aspect of our relationship.

There is another distinction. I don't set beth up for failure when it comes to anything important. she has a good, safe car, working cell phone, plenty of ways to pay for gas. As people know who contact me, if you call my 800 number at the office and dial my extension, it will ring through to my cell phone 24/7. There is no possible way she can be, or should be, late without a call and there better be a very good reason. The only way she could would be if she respected what she was doing and who she was with more than me. Should that ever occur - the last consequence she would ever expect would be a sensation that, on some level she'd enjoy. I'm not going to confuse the dynamic by ever rewarding a cause for punishment.

We enjoy a VERY active and ongoing dialog, verbal and physical. I can read her petty well and appreciate if she needs any sensation that perhaps she needs to experience. If I couldn't I'm confident that beth wouldn't have any problem chatting with me about it. But even if she couldn't I'm more confident that she wouldn't deliberately show up late in hopes of generating a punishment 'scene'. At 100 minutes, or 10, there would be no one there to greet her with anything.

It could be said that I'm setting up beth for failure in my little created dynamics. If you can't see the distinction - it would be a waste of time to try and explain it.

(in reply to angelslave77)
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