RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (Full Version)

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Termyn8or -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/16/2008 12:52:42 PM)

Irish, I can't completely agree with you on this one. People do want everything fast, easy and cheap, in fact it has become one of the major selling points in advertising these days.

While I fully admit that people are part of the problem, they are not the whole problem There may have been some things we could do in the past but those options have dwindled quite a bit, and are all but disappearing.

Take the Chinese plasma TV for three grand. It is on the shelf now. However I see a demo model made in the USA that while more expensive, looks a bit better touts a better warranty and costs say a grand more. But then there is a waiting list, I can expect delivery in 3-4 weeks. I would indeed opt for the domestically made product, this was disposable income anyway. I would much rather dispose of it here than there. There is one little problem. There are no domestically produced plasma TVs. In fact there are no domestically produced TVs at all.

All these mass market items are made elswhere. As I said in another post, probably more than one, it is easier to get one dollar each from a million people than it is to get a million from one. High rollers know that, and that is why they are high rollers.

In this area we have a chain of pizza shops called Georgio's. Fast, easy and cheap is the name of the game there. For five bucks they grab you a pepperoni pizza off the shelf that has been kept warm for who knows how long. They are still in business and can afford TV ads, so they must be doing alright (even though the box tastes better than the pizza). I have two other options, I could drive out to Angie's pizza and get a much better pie for twice the price and have to wait for it or call the order in ahead of time. I could also make a pizza at home which actually costs about as much as the more expensive pizza, and also takes a couple of hours to make because it is from scratch, and I mean flour, yeast, all that.

Not all of us go for fast, easy and cheap. Unfortunately those of us who don't are running out of options.

T




kdsub -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/16/2008 2:13:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
LOL. While I acknowledge the sarcasm that coated your comment; I will not disagree with the second part of it. Yes, WE , as in everyone...rich, poor, coporate, street vendor...we have all become lazy, complacent, and greedy. Which is what I said to begin with [8D]
Our economic and financial crisis did not happen overnight; nor did it happen just because some big coporations decided that they wanted to be richer.
If all us 'little people' were not so complacent, LAZY, and greedy ourselves, we would never had 'followed' the path that those huge coporations decided to lead us down.

Place blame where it belongs. We are all responsible for the place where we now sit.


IrishMist...I have a little challenge for you...Search the net on American productivity compared to any other industrialized nation. You will find that Americans work harder and longer with less benefits then most other industrialized nations.

That does not sound lazy to me...This is nothing new... we have been the most productive for decades.

Butch




philosophy -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/16/2008 4:00:33 PM)

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/25/5/1825838.pdf


...to save people the googling......




LookieNoNookie -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/16/2008 6:07:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I just happened to fall into a niche jobwise. I am talking about other people. I mean I can smoke at work, I can do almost anything I want at work. But that is me. Sometimes one has to think about others, and the big picture.

I don't consider myself skilled, just very well semi-skilled. I see there are three segments of society when it comes to employability. Of course there are the dregs, those who would have to be taught how to mow grass etc., then there are the semi skilled. My Father is one I consider as such. Those who can work in a factory, can read rulers, mechanical diagrams and micrometers as well as other measuring instruments.

What I consider skilled is engineers, doctors and the like. Dad was semi-skilled. He did well at it and sometimes worked closely with the engineers, actually told them certain things were a pipedream because there was no way on Earth to manufacture the project. He affected the design of some products. Working hand in hand with the engineers his company manufactured the very first machine that produced floppy disks. I still consider him semi-skilled. He made a good living, because that was possible back then. Grampa had taught him the basics, and was impressed by Dad's abilities, and praised him for it.

Dad never had a degree, and like me, not even a highschool diploma. He did have a skill though. Call it a semi-skill all you want, but that was what made this country work. The engineer says do this, and he says you can't do this. Together they solved problems and innovated, something the US used to be known for. Reknowned for even.

Semi-skilled workers made up most of the middle class. Of course there were burger flippers etc., but the base of the good economy these people built was on innovation. They were willing to learn and work, and of course went on to buy houses and support their families. They did well and the companies they worked for did well, proving the worth of the workers. Of course it takes good leadership, someone to make the right decisions, but without the little Man nothing works.

That is what we have lost due to free trade. It took a while for me to realize this, because of my position in my field. I see people working for ten bucks an hour, doing almost what I do. I am somewhat insulated from the effects of free trade. I know those days are coming to an end.

Understand what I am saying here. In this society not everyone has the ability to become a doctor or an engineer. Somewhere in between that and the lowest of jobs, there used to be a niche for people who will learn, and are willing to work. They have every right to be here as anyone else. I think anyone willing to work should have the opportunity to do so.

I think they made a mistake when they exported all the semi-skilled jobs overseas. That is shortsighted, as we are the major market. Now the borrowing has gotten to the point that if you think Bear-Stearns is in for a rough ride down, what happens next will dwarf that.

The fact is that we produce almost nothing. The fact is that when we import all these goods, if anyone cares to add up the costs of sending the raw materials to a foreign country and them sending back the finished product is ridiculous. Free trade was nothing but a plan to exploit poor people in other countries. This all to the benefit of the rich, those skilled in screwing people. What they don't realize is that they are screwing themselves in the long run. That's the American way now I guess.

The middle class in necessary for our economy to work properly. (cjan ignore the next sentence if you don't have me ignored). How many can walk into the bosses office and tell them that you missed work because you did coke the other day and need an advance for weed ? How many of you can get a blowjob in the office (Clinton). How many can really say "fuck you" and get away with it ? Not many.

That is because jobs are scarce unless you have a bunch of credentials. They should not be. We enjoy the benefit of cheap Chinese products. They work so cheap the importing the raw materials and shipping the finished product adds up to less than what it would cost to pay a realistic wage in the US to manufacture the same product. For some of the Chinese, until they got that wonderful job making TV sets their house was a blanket, and they were lucky to get that !

It was unrealistic for people to think free trade was a good thing under these conditions. In the end, the products do cost about the same as they would if made here, it is just that different people are getting rich, and the people who actually build the product get a much smaller share of the take.

That is capitalism in action folks, get used to it. It's not really going to change until they can't afford ink with which to print more money. Everything is now based on debt. For things to get better, someone has to come along and do what Hitler did. If that happens, hopefully he won't shake the world up. Hitler rebuilt the German economy, using semi-socialist tactics. If not for the war, he would have gone down in history as a great leader. But then, nobody is perfect.

There were times when factories were built, and literally could not buy the steel required to build their products, and this was a long time ago. Think Tucker and Cord. These greedy people have not only destroyed us, but have made recovery almost impossible.

However it is not impossible. A few rich Men, with foresight and the cooperation of the government could rebuild this country. I know Bill Gates is but a flea speck on the glass seperating us from the really rich, but with his money, I would endeavor to change things for the better.

We need factories, we need to produce something. We are in a recession now, and though the pundits will not admit it, most of the GDP is coming from investments. That is not producing anything and if you understand anything at all, you know that this situation is not sustainable.

We are in the end times of this. I don't mean anything Bibilical, I mean economy wise. We have two possible paths, one is to restore the manufacturing base which will have benefits untold once people have money again, or we can be reduced to third world status.

I prefer the former, how about you ?

T


You spend an enourmous amount of time, saying an enourmous amount of things...all of which could have been said in one paragraph.




Termyn8or -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/16/2008 6:23:51 PM)

Lookie, I could do it in one sentence if I wanted to.

We are so screwed that the light from screwed takes twelve minutes to reach us, and it only takes eight minutes from the sun which is 93 million miles away.

T




LookieNoNookie -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/16/2008 6:34:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Lookie, I could do it in one sentence if I wanted to.

We are so screwed that the light from screwed takes twelve minutes to reach us, and it only takes eight minutes from the sun which is 93 million miles away.

T


(Now....that was a smidge lighter....and more digestible).




pahunkboy -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/16/2008 6:34:40 PM)

Lookie,

if you dont wish to read long posts- then fine.

I for one enjoy Terms inciteful posts. He has a way of putting in writing thoughts that I can not.

One sentence is not enough. 

If you dont like anyones posting style- then per haps move on to greener pastures, to posts that you like.

Many of us DO enjoy the posts of Termin8or.   If one has any attention span, one can LEARN from him.   So- try not to obstruct the creative flow....      someone made a complaint like this maybe 6 months ago.... I dont see why anyone complains. It IS a message board.  [I dont get it...  why anyone would complain...especially over Tx posts which never crash in on another poster.]

be good.




rulemylife -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/16/2008 6:53:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

OK, free trade is not the problem.  It was because we're all too lazy, complacent and greedy.

Unlike the generous, selfless corporations who sought to move jobs to third-world countries solely as a philanthropic gesture to help our poorer, less fortunate neighbors.

LOL. While I acknowledge the sarcasm that coated your comment; I will not disagree with the second part of it. Yes, WE , as in everyone...rich, poor, coporate, street vendor...we have all become lazy, complacent, and greedy. Which is what I said to begin with [8D]
Our economic and financial crisis did not happen overnight; nor did it happen just because some big coporations decided that they wanted to be richer.
If all us 'little people' were not so complacent, LAZY, and greedy ourselves, we would never had 'followed' the path that those huge coporations decided to lead us down.

Place blame where it belongs. We are all responsible for the place where we now sit.


Did we have a choice?

I must have missed the vote because I don't remember being asked.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/16/2008 6:58:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Lookie,

if you dont wish to read long posts- then fine.

I for one enjoy Terms inciteful posts. He has a way of putting in writing thoughts that I can not.

One sentence is not enough. 

If you dont like anyones posting style- then per haps move on to greener pastures, to posts that you like.

Many of us DO enjoy the posts of Termin8or.   If one has any attention span, one can LEARN from him.   So- try not to obstruct the creative flow....      someone made a complaint like this maybe 6 months ago.... I dont see why anyone complains. It IS a message board.  [I dont get it...  why anyone would complain...especially over Tx posts which never crash in on another poster.]

be good.



(I feel so ashamed).




Aneirin -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/16/2008 7:10:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I just happened to fall into a niche jobwise. I am talking about other people. I mean I can smoke at work, I can do almost anything I want at work. But that is me. Sometimes one has to think about others, and the big picture.

I don't consider myself skilled, just very well semi-skilled. I see there are three segments of society when it comes to employability. Of course there are the dregs, those who would have to be taught how to mow grass etc., then there are the semi skilled. My Father is one I consider as such. Those who can work in a factory, can read rulers, mechanical diagrams and micrometers as well as other measuring instruments.

What I consider skilled is engineers, doctors and the like. Dad was semi-skilled. He did well at it and sometimes worked closely with the engineers, actually told them certain things were a pipedream because there was no way on Earth to manufacture the project. He affected the design of some products. Working hand in hand with the engineers his company manufactured the very first machine that produced floppy disks. I still consider him semi-skilled. He made a good living, because that was possible back then. Grampa had taught him the basics, and was impressed by Dad's abilities, and praised him for it.

Dad never had a degree, and like me, not even a highschool diploma. He did have a skill though. Call it a semi-skill all you want, but that was what made this country work. The engineer says do this, and he says you can't do this. Together they solved problems and innovated, something the US used to be known for. Reknowned for even.

Semi-skilled workers made up most of the middle class. Of course there were burger flippers etc., but the base of the good economy these people built was on innovation. They were willing to learn and work, and of course went on to buy houses and support their families. They did well and the companies they worked for did well, proving the worth of the workers. Of course it takes good leadership, someone to make the right decisions, but without the little Man nothing works.

That is what we have lost due to free trade. It took a while for me to realize this, because of my position in my field. I see people working for ten bucks an hour, doing almost what I do. I am somewhat insulated from the effects of free trade. I know those days are coming to an end.

Understand what I am saying here. In this society not everyone has the ability to become a doctor or an engineer. Somewhere in between that and the lowest of jobs, there used to be a niche for people who will learn, and are willing to work. They have every right to be here as anyone else. I think anyone willing to work should have the opportunity to do so.

I think they made a mistake when they exported all the semi-skilled jobs overseas. That is shortsighted, as we are the major market. Now the borrowing has gotten to the point that if you think Bear-Stearns is in for a rough ride down, what happens next will dwarf that.

The fact is that we produce almost nothing. The fact is that when we import all these goods, if anyone cares to add up the costs of sending the raw materials to a foreign country and them sending back the finished product is ridiculous. Free trade was nothing but a plan to exploit poor people in other countries. This all to the benefit of the rich, those skilled in screwing people. What they don't realize is that they are screwing themselves in the long run. That's the American way now I guess.

The middle class in necessary for our economy to work properly. (cjan ignore the next sentence if you don't have me ignored). How many can walk into the bosses office and tell them that you missed work because you did coke the other day and need an advance for weed ? How many of you can get a blowjob in the office (Clinton). How many can really say "fuck you" and get away with it ? Not many.

That is because jobs are scarce unless you have a bunch of credentials. They should not be. We enjoy the benefit of cheap Chinese products. They work so cheap the importing the raw materials and shipping the finished product adds up to less than what it would cost to pay a realistic wage in the US to manufacture the same product. For some of the Chinese, until they got that wonderful job making TV sets their house was a blanket, and they were lucky to get that !

It was unrealistic for people to think free trade was a good thing under these conditions. In the end, the products do cost about the same as they would if made here, it is just that different people are getting rich, and the people who actually build the product get a much smaller share of the take.

That is capitalism in action folks, get used to it. It's not really going to change until they can't afford ink with which to print more money. Everything is now based on debt. For things to get better, someone has to come along and do what Hitler did. If that happens, hopefully he won't shake the world up. Hitler rebuilt the German economy, using semi-socialist tactics. If not for the war, he would have gone down in history as a great leader. But then, nobody is perfect.

There were times when factories were built, and literally could not buy the steel required to build their products, and this was a long time ago. Think Tucker and Cord. These greedy people have not only destroyed us, but have made recovery almost impossible.

However it is not impossible. A few rich Men, with foresight and the cooperation of the government could rebuild this country. I know Bill Gates is but a flea speck on the glass seperating us from the really rich, but with his money, I would endeavor to change things for the better.

We need factories, we need to produce something. We are in a recession now, and though the pundits will not admit it, most of the GDP is coming from investments. That is not producing anything and if you understand anything at all, you know that this situation is not sustainable.

We are in the end times of this. I don't mean anything Bibilical, I mean economy wise. We have two possible paths, one is to restore the manufacturing base which will have benefits untold once people have money again, or we can be reduced to third world status.

I prefer the former, how about you ?

T


The same thing has happened here, once a great manufacturing nation, now, what do we make ? Sure there are some specialist industries and weapons manufacture of course, oh and I believe we are pretty good at manufacturing and exporting  prison paraphenalia. But the old industries are largely gone, I believe anything worth selling was sold and with that, the skilled, semi skilled and even unskilled was sold out.

All through my youth we were being pushed to train in the future, electronics and what they led to, computers, even now, there are organisations trying to convince people computing is the way to go. Er, I think not, there are too many in computers already, the wonderful job prospects are largely gone and some are moving away from IT. I always held onto mechanical trades, things that could be made or fixed by hand, as I knew, that one day there will be a massive need for skills such as this, as things still break down and not everyone can just chuck things away and buy another one, the throw away nation we have become.

Now, trades that have died out, the specialist country trades which at one time paid peanuts are much in demand. You want the thatch on your little twee thatched cottage replacing, or your last forever dry stone wall rebuilding or even repairing, you are in for a search, and when you do find someone, you need to dig deep, as these trades command high prices now.

This nation was founded on the skills of the population, now what skills are there, the strength the working class once had via the unions has long gone, the worker now has no say, and has been disempowered. Employers call the shots and impose what they like.

I just wonders if say one day the importation of goods from abroad tailed off or was stopped, this country would be screwed, as we it seems can't do anything any more, our mines are closed, our steel works are gone, our natural resources are no more. Maybe it is we import so much, because we have to, we have no choice.

A side note, American goods, I like American goods, I have some and have opted for your country's products because I see something in them, that was once a British design and manufacturing trait, that of superb construction and attention to detail, a built to last and air of dependability, the sort of stuff that inspires confidence. Only small items, by such world reknowned brands such as MSR, Leatherman, MAG instruments etc. The  MSR products include devices I would trust with my life, that good they are.




IrishMist -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/17/2008 7:18:35 AM)

~ General Reply ~

Ok, since it seems that what I am trying to say is being lost somewhere, perhaps I can go a bit deeper and try to explain it better.

My posts all have to do with a single sentence that Termyn8or wrote
“that is what we have lost due to free trade”

Unless I am totally missing what HE said, ( and if I did, please feel free to point it out, I can admit when I am wrong ), his post states that free trade is the reason that this country is in such a financial and economical crisis. That free trade is the reason why we ( Meaning the US ) no longer manufactures it’s own products?

Am I right? Or am I off the mark?

All of my posts have been made with the assumption that I was right in what I was reading. My purpose was to point out that our loss of manufacturing occurred long before free trade ever came into being. Free trade was put into effect as a way to offset the decline; it was nothing more than bubblegum put into a crack in a dam; and it had the same effect that bubblegum would have. It may have stopped the trickle for a bit, but it can not fix the problem.
 
If you are so upset over what free trade is doing to this country; stop letting it lead you. Don’t buy products that come from other countries; buy those that are made here, by our workers. Give American companies on American soil a reason to keep making products.

So you have to pay more for them. Big fucking deal.

If you can’t get a product that you need that is made ON American soil by American companies; figure out a way to make it yourself or go without it.

But for God’s sake, stop complaining and start doing something about it instead.




Termyn8or -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/17/2008 9:19:42 AM)

Irish, my point is that you can't. When your TV breaks, get along without one. There are none made here. Believe it or not I can design and build one, but it will stop working in February and you'll have to get a box. Those aren't made here. Aha, I have it ! In my basement is one of the very last US built TVs. It's well over twenty years old and still works. Sell it to you cheap. It too will quit working next year, but I figured that out as well, get cable with a cable box. You don't own the box so you didn't contribute to the problem directly. However, no VCRs, DVDs, nothing of the sort. You'll also need a car without a radio or fuel injectors.

If you like music there is a place here in Cleveland that deals in high end used stereo equipment. I'll give you directions, just remember not to buy things built after about 1977.

Amana has also moved out, and I think they were the last. If you want a washer, dryer, stove, refrigerator, microwave etc., you may or may not be able to get one made here, but your selection of brands surely will be very limited.

Then there are other problems. Ye olde wolf in sheep's clothing. Many US built cars have foreign built engines. I think the engine is a pretty important part.  Many many components are imported.

What I know the most about is the brownwares industry (consumer electronics). In 1979 Zenith, among the last to stay in the US, began a cost cutting program. Their sales increased 4% and their profits increased 400%. When I read that trade journal I said to myself "I wonder what the new ones are like". I was right, they became cheap. Their profits increased a hundredfold, yet a few years later they moved to Mexico anyway.

In the 1980s conversely, Sony, a Japanese company opened plants in the US to make the picture tubes larger than 20" and assemble the larger sets here. They used to be a very high quality product and the fact that they moved part of their operation here was actually quite a good selling point. Back then. I do fully agree that people don't care now, but they used to.

Add to that the fact that a Chinese company will put just about any name on a product you want. There even have been cases of counterfeiting. Laws are in place to prevent it now, but a few "unauthorized" wolves in sheeps' cothing did make it to our shores.

I also think people don't realize even about some of the "real" brand names. People look at the name Toshiba, and don't even think it's Japanese. It's actually a contraction for Tokyo Shibaru. There are many examples. Although Sony did put some plants here, they never did pretend to be American. I can see why they changed their name though because it used to be Tokyo Tsechung Kogyo. I would change it too. Magnavox and a few other brands are subsidiaries of Phillips corporation, in the Netherlands. And Zenith, one of the last holdouts is now owned by Goldstar, in Korea.

There is actually a book out there in how to "buy American", but I didn't bother to order it because it has to be froth with errors. Notice all the Chinese tools on the shelves at Sears. Sears !

Irish, what you propose is alot easier said than done. I wish we could. If you really look into it you can see that. I agree that for a long time all people wanted to see was a low price, but I can't agree completely. The consumer had a hand in it, but others profitted by selling out. Profiteered actually.

So I suggest just trying to practice what you preach.That means looking at just about everything in your house, look in the back and see where it was made. I can tell you this much, you are going to have a very hard time finding something made in the USA that has a wire on it. These are things you need, an alarm clock or toaster for example. Things you would never suspect, but are in just about every home in this country.

Indeed, if you find new products actually made here, say so. I would buy them. I'm sure a few others would as well. I just don't have much in the way of suggestions because there simply aren't many. Even some things have the cabinet made here, but a look inside reveals that the whole working "guts" of the thing is not domestic at all, and it is the same chassis you would get if you had bought the cheaper brand, the one that doesn't pretend to be American.

Usually though, the deception stops at the nameplate. And then it is usually not even affixed here. Sometimes they print the boxes and owner's manuals here. Whup tee doo, we did something !

This in a country that invented the TV in that box. Granted it was invented in England almost simultaneously, but so what, they don't make TVs in England either. That's right, that problem is not peculiar to the US. Even in Germany, they are pushed to the limit to make anything. They went high tech, but had a school system good enough to prepare people for this.  They have to fight tooth and nail to keep their edge, and that means forward thinking and perseverence of all involved.

Granted there is a high tech sector of the US economy, but even though many things are designed here, they are not built here. Their CEOs can't quite get away with ours do, while they make money, they are forever modernizing their facilities, manufacturing facilities.

They see the need for this, not only from an economic standpoint, but from a military one, even though they don't do war anymore. They know that allies can become enemies overnight and being self sufficient is a desirable quality. In the US all they seem to care about is quarterly profits.

T




Hippiekinkster -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/17/2008 9:32:57 AM)

I'm not buying anything new, except for the odd piece of clothing. I'm fixing/making do.

I have a Pioneer Elite 54" that's been running almost continuously for 10 years with only one $500 repair. My audio gear is US made, except the turntable and tonearm are British and the cartridge is Japan. Preamp is Counterpoint SA-5.1 tube. Gorgeous sound. Wanting to build myself a pair of Orion speakers, but no dinero right now.

Cars are 88 Volvo 240 and 94 MB E320 Cabrio. No more cars for me.

House is paid for. Got all the tools I need. Make my own soap, ketchup, mustard, yada yada.

I'm off the consumption merry-go-round.




pahunkboy -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/17/2008 12:03:58 PM)

All right.

I purchased some socks 6 weeks ago.  Should be easy.  Nope.   Of the 50 pair- 1/2 turned out to be worth the money.

Then there is the toilet brush.  3 of them...  breaks.  It is cheap.  Pruning shears- cracked on the 3rd rose branch. I did take that gadget back. 

2 reasons for this.

1. the US once had what was called "fitness of merchandability"-- which means a hammer must be able to pond nails,,,,but not be a door stop.  The item must work for its intended purpose.


Ok- so next you have massive cheap labor in faraway lands.   So- lets take the tainted cat food- which killed my aunts cat. Alright-suppose she sues for damages.  Exactly WHOM does she sue?

Walmart started the specs.  Wallmart- would dictate how many stiches in a shirt...how many bottons and so forth.  So it started this way...  but now- true you could shop Sears instead- but that junk TOO comes from China....


My 98 Chevy had the power window break. I hate power windows.   JUNKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.

Hopefully heart valves and nuclear parts are not being made shoddy.

Term is right about the grocer.  I was in Aldis today...bread says "whole wheat"  but the label says "enriched".  Enriched, processed and bleached are no nos. it renders  the flour as sugar.


BTW- when I was cleaning papers out- I found a lifetime warrantee of my dads gravestone.  I dont think the company is even around. Supposedly the stone would never fade.  But it did,

See one cant even die anymore with out broken down junkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk




Irishknight -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/17/2008 12:25:22 PM)

You are only partially correct about Amana, Term.  They still assemble fridges in the US because they have to.  The Amana name is owned by the city of Amana, Iowa and for the company to use it they have to keep the factory in that town open.  There are also a couple of other plants stateside still making Amana products .... pardon me ... "assembling" products.  And there is no such thing as an Amana microwave anymore as they sold that division to a company from England who built a plant in Cedar Rapids, Iowa to build commercial microwaves only.  If you buy one for your McDonalds or 7/11 you'll be getting an American made product at last for now.
I used to work at the fridge factory and still have friends there so I can guaranty that my info is correct.




SilverMark -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/17/2008 12:56:58 PM)

I love the thread and am impressed by term's ability to concisely state his point. I own retail stores, and to be competitive in this time I have almost NO CHOICE but to buy from foreign vendors and the answer is relatively simple....NO ONE wants to pay for quality made American goods in my industry. To provide for my business, my employees and my family I MUST be competitive. I buy from every American vendor I can but, there aren't many. As the Chinese economy changes, and their people are no longer able to work as cheaply as they were 10 years ago perhaps a few will come back but, most just move their furniture production to Viet Nam and Indonesia. If you want to help yourself, your country and your neighbors buy American. As consumers we have choices, instead of a Lexus buy a Cadillac, buy that Ford Fusion instead of the Camry. When you shop for goods ask if there is an American alternative...be pro-active...It is our choice! Hell, if you don't or I don't there won't be much left!....




Termyn8or -> RE: The little Man, the middle Man and the middle class (9/17/2008 7:05:16 PM)

Irish, nice to know about Amana. At least something is made here. However my point includes just how many of something people will buy. Most households only have one regrigerator, some two. If you can find a new car that is at least 80% US made, great, but how many of them is anyone going to buy per year ? On the other hand, the typical US household usually has more than two TVs, cellphones for everyone, ipods, all that. All these brownwares are mass market items. In fact if someone was looking to start a business I would have to advise them to market something useless as possible. That may be changing fast in the coming recession, but it was sound advice in the past. People buy their cars and appliances because they need them. Once the need is fulfilled, they won't be back for awhile. I think it would be fair to back off to "buy American when you can".

Things like toys and decorative items will be sought after by anyone who can afford them ad infinitum, because they do not fulfill a need. It is want that drives people to buy such things.

Mark, I don't remember being called concise before, I don't know quite how to take it :-) IIRC you are in the furniture business. I know the markup, you can give deep discounts and still make a buck, but people don't understand markup. If you deal furniture you are talking a whole lot of retail space to heat and cool. Also if you don't have the bankroll for your own floorplanning you are paying interest on everything there. Just about everything anyway, IIRC it was Westinghouse credit that had a finite time and you were required to pay the stock off after a certain time. No doubt other companies had similar policies but I have not seen much of that end of the business for a long time. The fact is anyone in business is there to make money.

More later, people over.

T




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