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Just die already! - 9/18/2008 8:55:59 PM   
auroraborealis


Posts: 509
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline 		http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2983652/Baroness-Warnock-Dementia-sufferers-may-have-a-duty-to-die.html


I am in awe of the absoulte wrongness of this Baroness Warnock. But then of course.. she has tons of cash.. so she would never be a burden on the system.. so she would be safe.. however... other poor slobs just need to die already.

Hmm I wonder if some old realitive of hers held on long enough to become troublesome to her. Prob. some estate matters held up.

As some of you know I am going for my degree in Psychology. I find this sort of thought freightening. Too old, too sick. Lets put you out of *our* misery. Doesnt matter if you are in pain or not.. you are simply inconvient.

Hell in this day and age show me a convient person.

Gwyn

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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 9:08:50 PM   
mitchmash07


Posts: 12
Joined: 8/21/2008
Status: offline 		Heh, that reminds of that movie, "Logan's Run". What was considered old age,? Thirty or thirty-three?

Renew! Renew!

Having had an elderly grandmother with senile dementia, I certainly didn't want her to suffer. But, I didn't want to she her "put down" either. However, I do think there are certain individuals in the world that have most definitely out lived their usefulness. A certain "bearded man" automatically comes to mind....


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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 9:12:30 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mitchmash07

Heh, that reminds of that movie, "Logan's Run". What was considered old age,? Thirty or thirty-three?

Renew! Renew!

Having had an elderly grandmother with senile dementia, I certainly didn't want her to suffer. But, I didn't want to she her "put down" either. However, I do think there are certain individuals in the world that have most definitely out lived their usefulness. A certain "bearded man" automatically comes to mind....




Hey now, I resemble that remark.  I am also sure many have prayed for me to be put down, hell I have even heard them scream it (well not the bearded part, we were required to shave).

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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 9:19:00 PM   
mitchmash07


Posts: 12
Joined: 8/21/2008
Status: offline 		LOL. No, not you Thadius. I'm sure if you think real hard about it, his name will come to mind. BTW, it's not anybody here. Yeesh!

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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 9:19:55 PM   
lilsubl


Posts: 4595
Joined: 2/6/2006
Status: offline 		yanno, i'm kind of on the Baroness' side here...i can't even imagine the torture that living with dementia can be...it's one thing that i fear more strongly than any other disease, i think...so i guess it's sort of personal to me, like killing spiders is to those with arachnophobia...i would hope that someone would be allowed to put me out of that kind of misery if/when it happens to me.......

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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 9:43:19 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		Call me crazy (plenty of people, including my therapist, already do) but I agree with her.  Problems only crop up when someone who has no say in matters decides they "should" have a say - and takes things to court to argue that a person refusing to accept treatment is "no longer mentally compitant to make a decision to refuse."  I feel that assisted death, as well as suicide, should be made legal.  If a person truely doesn't want to stick around, they are Going to find a way to remove themselves permanently from the equation.  What business do Any of the rest of us have in interfering with that decision making process?
 
The arguement has been put forth for years, and by many, that doctors and nurses - pretty much Any medical professional - has a duty to "save" lives.  My take on it is that their duty is to End Suffering - not extend life regardless of the consequences or desires of the person inhabiting the fleshy machine. 
 
Sometimes - death is a considerably greater act of Mercy than extending a life - both to the person suffering, and to those around them.  Those who are no longer "there" mentally - you can't Grieve, because they aren't Dead.  But Grieving is exactly what you often feel you Should do, because what made them "them" is already dead and gone.  I've watched my dad for the past 2 years, knowing that it wasn't "time" yet to grieve, because his body still tenuously clings to the semblance of life - yet also knowing that what made him Dad died 2 years ago when his stroke happened.  He is nearly bancrupt, and I'm well on the way there, just paying for his necessary care.  Care that, had things gone just a tad differently on the operating table after his stroke, wouldn't be necessary at all - because his body would have followed his mind into oblivion.  He has just enough of "himself" left to know that he'll never be even remotely Normal or Productive again.  He's said repeatedly that he wishes his body would just hurry up and stop working.
 
Those who've suffered extended periods of physical agony, praying to die, hoping to die, wishing they could just get it over with and die - hell, sometimes Begging to die just so it's finally Over - it's well beyond inhumane, cruel, or sadistic to Force them not to actively seek death as a means of Release.  It is it's own unique - and unfortunately Morally Sanctioned - form of torture, both physical and mental.  I watched my mother pray Daily for death for the last 3 years of her life.  I watched her put up with agony on a daily basis, unable to Function most of the time from the sheer hell of a body that no longer cooperated with itself.  I watched her eat stronger and stronger pain meds, in larger and larger doses, just on the off chance that she'd get Some form of at least temporary respite.  I saw her doctors, more than once, refuse to give her sufficient medication to actually do any Good, because enough to actually make her pain free would also Kill Her - and their excuse for withholding meds was that they didn't want to risk her becoming Addicted to the painkillers!
 
No, I don't think Lady Warnock is off track.  I think the interfering, falsely moralistic, "life is sacred even if it's really only Existing" crap is off track.

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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 9:47:46 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: auroraborealis

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2983652/Baroness-Warnock-Dementia-sufferers-may-have-a-duty-to-die.html


I am in awe of the absoulte wrongness of this Baroness Warnock. But then of course.. she has tons of cash.. so she would never be a burden on the system.. so she would be safe.. however... other poor slobs just need to die already.

Hmm I wonder if some old realitive of hers held on long enough to become troublesome to her. Prob. some estate matters held up.

As some of you know I am going for my degree in Psychology. I find this sort of thought freightening. Too old, too sick. Lets put you out of *our* misery. Doesnt matter if you are in pain or not.. you are simply inconvient.

Hell in this day and age show me a convient person.

Gwyn

Soylent Green
Without going into the enemy of the old...young doctors, we are or our progeny will be soylent green. That pretty much settles the issue...doesn't it ?

And no...I am not getting into Chomsky '101' even though it might apply to this post.

OH, and I much prefer the word shocking or amazed rather than awe. Awe to me is to inspire...motivate...energize.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 9/18/2008 9:59:21 PM >

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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 9:56:00 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		        I'm with the Baroness.  Just end it.  Forget all that 'cost to society' crap.  It's the right thing to do.

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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 9:57:25 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		If I start dribbling applesauce and tapioca all over myself, and talking to houseplants, please, someone just take me behind the barn and shoot me. 

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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 10:02:01 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

If I start dribbling applesauce and tapioca all over myself, and talking to houseplants, please, someone just take me behind the barn and shoot me. 

Heavens no...you are far too young, usefull...exploitable and profitable. BTW, I heard talking to houseplants is theraputic...for you.

Alright...alright then...theraputic for everyone...it's just so hard to tell.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 9/18/2008 10:06:05 PM >

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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 10:03:27 PM   
lilsubl


Posts: 4595
Joined: 2/6/2006
Status: offline 		when my father finally got tired of living, he chose to stop eating & drinking & die at home...his mind was intact, he was just tired of fighting to keep his body alive...he made this decision one evening & when he woke up alive the next morning, he was pissed!!  which is sooooo my father!  it took 3 weeks for him to die & i didn't get to be with him till his last day, because he didn't want me to hold him to the earth...his wife cared for him throughout & after he stopped breathing, i was honored to be allowed to bathe & dress him for his cremation...

a few years later, his wife decided to do the same thing...she had been with him so she knew what to expect & made the choice to go that way also...her very close friends cared for her during the process & she went as peacefully as he did...i don't know if i would be strong enough to stick to a decision like that myself...because they didn't go to doctors, there wasn't anybody to tell on them & they got to die in the manner that they chose...because they were elderly, no medical examiner was involved...& because their children supported their decisions, there was nobody to argue with their choice...

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Linea, collarded pet of the evil Sir Max & his lovely & equally evil wife


it's no fun unless you're scared

if you can't be brave, be determined & you'll get to the same place

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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 10:04:35 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

If I start dribbling applesauce and tapioca all over myself, and talking to houseplants, please, someone just take me behind the barn and shoot me. 

Heavens no...you are far too young, usefull...exploitable and profitable. BTW, I heard talking to houseplants is theraputic...for you.


Nah, I'd have to be at least your age before I consdered the barn.

< Message edited by Lynnxz -- 9/18/2008 10:08:03 PM >

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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 10:11:13 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

If I start dribbling applesauce and tapioca all over myself, and talking to houseplants, please, someone just take me behind the barn and shoot me. 

Heavens no...you are far too young, usefull...exploitable and profitable. BTW, I heard talking to houseplants is theraputic...for you.


Nah, I'd have to be at least your age before I consdered the barn.

Well despite of my amendment, pretty good young lady...you make my laugh kiddo.

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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 10:14:43 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		They were fortunate.  In my family, it hasn't been that..... Peaceful.
 
When mom wanted so desperately to die, my grandmother made it plain that if dad allowed her to do what she Wanted to do - that granny would start court proceedings.  Even in the hospital ICU, the day mom actually died, we had hell with my grandmother.  Mom had a living will in place, and dad and I made the decision to abide by what she had put in that document - to withdraw mechanical support after a certain amount of time had passed, and allow her to finally GO.  We sat at her bedside there in the ICU while she peacefully drew a few more breaths, her heart slowed and then finally stopped and she was simply.... gone.  My grandmother, whom we made wait in the ICU waiting room (again, mom's decision which she had made plain to daddy and I prior to going on a ventilator!) threw a screaming hissy fit - calling the doctors murderers for unplugging the machines, calling dad and I murderers for letting them do so, screaming at the hospital staff that she was going to sue them for allowing dad to make the decision on when to unplug rather than getting HER decision on Whether to unplug.  She raised enough of a ruckus that the hospital staff threatened to have security escort her from the building, and she only finally shut up with her hystronics when I shocked her into silence - by calling her a melodramatic, emotionally abusive bitch, and telling her to STFU cause mom had died hating her for her control freak attitudes.
 
The only reason dad hasn't completely quit taking his various meds or eatting is because he knows that if he Does the nursing home will raise a ruckus which my idiot, grasping brother will back.  Honestly, I think he's simply waiting long enough to know there's nothing left, financially, for my brother to give me further grief fighting about.

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Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 10:38:29 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		There are two sides to this coin. There are any number of people who suffer from various afflictions. I have an online sub a million miles away but has struck a nerve...in fact, quite a few. She and her ex some 11 years ago decided unlike the socially valued clergy, her children (the parents) and the rest of the restive world that her 4-month premature, borderline life-sustaining, back bone-missing, struggling, GRANDson was simply going to live. EVERYBODY said let him go. SHE my little fireplug of a sub with her own serious issues...said NO !! She, this old woman and her ex...adopted him and in a flash...he WAS going to live.

He is paraplegic unable to talk or use any motor skills beyond a remote control for video games, movies, and cartoons YET, brings joy to ALL just with his excitement for life. Goes to school, has many friends. Whether it is catching a fish on a hook he didn't secure or beating his brethren at chess...he is a pleasure.

He isn't anybody at all except among those that cling to life whatever it is and has the love of his Grandparents, me and a mutual worship...of it.

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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 11:17:52 PM   
lilsubl


Posts: 4595
Joined: 2/6/2006
Status: offline 		im so sorry that your family is so divided...i know that i am blessed to have the family i have...when my mom was in th ICU on a vent, my father & i would go see her 3 or 4 times a day...she was unconscious, but we could feel her presence there & one time she actually squeezed my hand...we both hoped that a miracle would occur & somehow we could bring her home...then sh had a bad night & when we went in the next day, we could tell she was gone, that the essence that made her mom had left & it was just an empty body that the nachines were keeping alive...we went back several times that day & the next to make sure & then made the decision to allow her to go...the papers only required 2 signatures, but my sister, who didn't want the machines turned off, insisted on signing her name also, which she did, altho i' not sure how she could see the document thru her tears...but she wanted us to all be united on this decision & wouldn't allow the 2 of us to shoulder the whole burden...i adore them all, this family of mine....

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Linea, collarded pet of the evil Sir Max & his lovely & equally evil wife


it's no fun unless you're scared

if you can't be brave, be determined & you'll get to the same place

wannabe member of the subbi mafia

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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 11:46:46 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline 		This whole issue is so difficult. Due to advances in medical science, new borns weighing less than a pound and elderly with various ailments continue to live in astounding numbers that could not have been foreseen 20 years ago.  Is it up to the family?  The doctors?  The legislature?  Is there ever any reason to suicide or to be assisted to suicide?  If so, where do we draw the line?
 
I think the baroness showed an incredible lack of understanding as what a demented person's life is like, and what their impact on their environment is.  I alao think it is abhorrent to kill people simply due to the cost of their care.
 
Yet something must be done.  I think most people my age secretly believe they'll live to be 90...when I was growing up 72 was the life expectancy....now  it's bandied about as a retirement age.  Can we in any way support so many millions of elderly in any kind of dignity?  And if we do, what will be the cost to younger people?
 
I'd like to see it become a more public discussion, but remain a personal matter.
 
candystripper 

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RE: Just die already! - 9/18/2008 11:48:32 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		While there are some cases like that, the vast majority of them simply Aren't.
 
My oldest - who just turned 21 - shouldn't have been capable of surviving due to the plethora of birth defects.  I was asked by the doctors - and still stand by my decision - that no Extraordinary measures were to be taken.  She managed to survive without the aid of machines.  Had there been a point though where that wasn't the case - she would not have made it to her recent birthday.  Don't get me wrong - I care about my daughter - but I'm not about to lie and say she wasn't a significantly greater burden than I was prepared for or the world should have Had to deal with.  Fortunately for the species, she will never reproduce - because chances are if she did, the resulting offspring would be so severely disabled as to be a burden on society from the time of it's conception - just like she has been. 
 
There's damned few people who can financially Afford the cost of necessary medical care for a child with severe bith defects - which means the rest of society - you, me, joe blow down the street, every single anonymous taxpayer - picks up the tab for their multi-million dollar medical bills. No, I'm not exagerating with that 'multi-million' - the cost of life sustaining medical equipment that many of these kids wouldn't survive without runs into the hundreds of thousands of dollars - per year.  Add to that any necessary surgeries - and there are a lot of those born with severe defects that require Multiple surgeries - and you add several hundred thousand more.  Shall we add in the cost of various medications needed both while hospitalized and frequently after release from the hospital?  And that's all prior to them reaching the age of majority, at 21, when they become part of the "adult" system rather than then "minor" system of state aid.  For many who are like my daughter, they will never be Physically Or Developmentally capable of being productive members of society.  Which means that the taxpayer gets to foot the bill - both medically and otherwise - for the rest of their lives, which with today's medical technology (and insistance on everyone's life being sustained whether productive or not, wanted or not) could very well be a Very Loooooooooong time.
 
Then you have to consider the cost - yes, Financial again - for all those folks who have outlived themselves, but who can't afford to pay for their own care.  Medicare and Medicaid assissted nursing home stays run to the tune of $50,000 per year per person - for relatively cheap nursing home facilities.  Add another $26 to $30 K per year per person to pay for their medications.
 
Those are just the Financial burdens induced - on individuals or society.  That doesn't even begin to touch on the Emotional burdens that go along with the financial.  The constant worry and stress.  The emotional discomfort of having to weigh the needs of one against the needs of another.  The strain of having to weigh the needs of the other person, unproductive or no longer wanting to be part of life - against the needs of the caretaker.  The stress of wondering daily when it's going to end.  The stress of never knowing when you're going to get that call saying something has gone "terribly wrong"  on the rare occassion when you go ahead and get a babysitter - even though you can't really afford to do so, because of the expense of medical bills.  Not knowing, when you go to sleep at night, whether you'll find a friggin Corpse in the other bedroom when you get up in the morning, where there should be a living person - but not simply paranoia, because the person in the other room lives on death's doorstep a helluva lot more fully than Normal humanity.  The eventual resentment at knowing that you literally can't do anything without a babysitter - even though they're way past an age where they Should need a babysitter - because you don't dare leave them unsupervised even for long enough to jump in the car and go the 4 blocks to the corner store and back.  The knowledge that you can't even do something as simple as take a shower unless it's in the middle of the night, because if they're awake you've got to be right there, so nothing happens that will kill them like mindlessly sticking a finger in a light socket.  The guilt that you carry - no matter how rightly or wrongly so - when you Do finally reach a breaking point and "steal" a few minutes for yourself because it's that or wind up in an asylum somewhere.  The wondering, for the rest of your life, whether it coulda/would been somehow Different, if you had changed some small detail during pregnancy.  And wondering for the rest of Their life what they would/coulda/shoulda been like, had that some small something not gone wrong in the womb.

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RE: Just die already! - 9/19/2008 4:08:57 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I hope to have a pleasant death.

I want to be able to feed and toilet myself.

I never figured out how during the cold war- when we were terrified of NUKED, why we could not own a "break glass take these pills"  pill.

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RE: Just die already! - 9/19/2008 4:11:17 AM   
simpleplan2


Posts: 461
Joined: 7/5/2008
Status: offline 		Not Santa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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