RE: Betting on John McCain (Full Version)

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corysub -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/19/2008 6:18:30 PM)

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

So far two of us on this thread can vote in the November election.


...oh please Popeye......tell me you're not going down the CL route of suggesting that non-voters aren't allowed to voice opinions......


Phil, I'm not.
I just made an observation.
Hey! Can't I make observations?
Don't I have "White Priviledge?"


...you may well do.....heh.....however i was just seeking reassurance that my favourite isolationist wasn't going insane.,.......



:)



thishereboi -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/19/2008 6:20:29 PM)

I know convicted felons who vote....well not for Obama, but they vote.



cloudboy -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/19/2008 6:55:02 PM)


I'm definitely not a libertarian where healthcare is concerned.

I am a libertarian where family planing and drugs are concerned. I would decriminalize the drug trade and stop the war on drugs. Hopefully, this would lower our burgeoning prison population which right now is over 2 Million. More people might smoke weed, but that might be a good thing.

You talk about Obama raising taxes, but he won't raise them on you. (At least he's not planning to.)

I would eliminate the Federal Department of Education and let the states concern themselves with this as a local issue.

I would halve the US defense budget, which is entirely out of control. (Not sure how IRAQ and Afghanistan would play into this.)

I would invest money in infrastructure and public transportation.

I would make it easier for US citizens to stay united with their spouses who were illegal aliens.

I would provide more avenues for illegal aliens to legalize their status in the US.

I would eliminate the 3 year bar (for reentry into the USA) on those who overstay their visa for six months, and I would eliminate the 10 year bar for those who overstated more than a year. In lieu of the bar, I would institute fines.

I would reform the National Interest Waiver standard for employment based immigration to encourage MORE talented individuals to stay without having to go through labor certification.

------

I'm not sure what McCain's plan is in regard to immigration.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/19/2008 7:32:58 PM)

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You talk about Obama raising taxes, but he won't raise them on you. (At least he's not planning to.)

When a politician talks about raising somebody else's taxes, it's amazing how quickly all of us become that "somebody else".

Higher taxes == bad idea

Lower taxes == good idea

The One == higher taxes

The One == bad idea



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/19/2008 7:52:41 PM)

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:


You talk about Obama raising taxes, but he won't raise them on you. (At least he's not planning to.)

When a politician talks about raising somebody else's taxes, it's amazing how quickly all of us become that "somebody else".

Higher taxes == bad idea

Lower taxes == good idea

The One == higher taxes

The One == bad idea

I'd be absolutely thrilled to let you opt out of paying any taxes.

But you don't get police protection, fire protection, the use of the mail, the use of our roads, benefits from any government regulation like safe drugs and food. You can't fly, either. We taxpayers fund the FAA.

Who can come up with some more stuff that these extreme radical righties would have to forego?



FirmhandKY -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/19/2008 10:08:58 PM)

I'd be absolutely thrilled to let you opt out of paying any taxes.

Great!  Count me in!

But you don't get police protection,

No problem.  I"m heavily armed.

 fire protection,

Community fire association.  I pay dues.  Check.

the use of the mail,

Fedex. 

the use of our roads,

Toll roads. My ultralight. 

benefits from any government regulation like safe drugs and food.

Great!  Farmers market, and Canadian drugs (via Fedex)

You can't fly, either. We taxpayers fund the FAA.

You think it's the FAA that allows airline industry to survive?  Where you been living the last few decades.

No matter.  My ultralight doesn't require anything other than a physical.  And no roads either.

Who can come up with some more stuff that these extreme radical righties would have to forego?

Private associations and the free market would do a better job in just about anything you mentioned, or could conceive of, methinks.

Cheers.  [:D]

Firm



sasseeNshy -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/19/2008 10:18:24 PM)

Well GROWL back......no more Canadian pharmacuticals for you........laughs



Lorr47 -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/20/2008 5:16:58 AM)

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I'm not a Republican. Having done the research I know with certainty that McCain the best bet for President this election cycle. If McCain were a Libertarian or even a Democrat I would still make the same argument--provided the Democrats could actually tolerate within their ranks a politician who can do more than pontificate about how wrong, evil, and misguided America is, and what a crying shame it is that America isn't just like Europe.

Also, I'm not saying The One is exactly like Bush. He's not. Bush was and is an advocate of a progressive tax system but he did actually lower taxes. The One will raise them--that alone should be sufficient cause to disqualify him from public office. Bush did expand government--although not nearly to the extent that The One contemplates. The One is the worst aspects of Bush (big government and big spending) with none of the good aspects (leadership, courage, vision) of Bush.

McCain has the good aspects of Bush (leadership, courage, vision) with fewer of the worst aspects (not nearly tough enough on spending in my book).

Who do I want people to vote for? McCain. He's the best choice this election cycle.
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September 19, 2008 Grand Rapids Press reporting on Concervative George Will's speech at the JW Mariott:
"'This is why some thoughtful conservatives have grave doubts about his (McCain's) ability to be president,' ***
"In his speech, Will said McCain worries conservatives because he is someone who 'can so polarize every argument into a kind of melodrama.  You cannot have honest difference of opinion with John McCain.  This is very difficult because to disagree with he who is honor personified is inherently dishonorable.' ***
"Will said the Bush administration has taken government involvement in the daily lives of Americans to new heights.
"'We may be witnessing the most left-wing, the most liberal administration (Bush's) in U.S. history," Will said. ' This is an astonishingly interventionist administration.'
"'If the Democratic party cannot win the presidency this year, it has to get out politics and into a new line of work,' he said. ' In his wildest dreams, Barack Obama could not advocate a bigger government than the one your getting (from Bush).'"***
 



cloudboy -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/20/2008 6:21:02 AM)

quote:

Lower taxes == good idea


How has it helped us in the past eight years? Maybe it just amounted to a bribe for votes and poor management of the USA in return.



Sanity -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/20/2008 6:55:15 AM)

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ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
I'd be absolutely thrilled to let you opt out of paying any taxes.

But you don't get police protection, fire protection, the use of the mail, the use of our roads, benefits from any government regulation like safe drugs and food. You can't fly, either. We taxpayers fund the FAA.

Who can come up with some more stuff that these extreme radical righties would have to forego?


Could you just imagine the horror? Without big brother, people could buy their prescription meds without a prescription.

Some small farmer might try to sell you fresh whole milk, or other food that was even more dangerous, like colorful mushrooms...

Teachers might try to tailor a curriculum to fit their particular class's needs!

Kidding aside, there is legitimate government, then there is bloated bureaucracy that just keeps growing and never gets trimmed. Congress continually passes more and more laws, many of which benefit their special-interest friends such as doctors and lawyers... thick red-tape regulations specifically designed to funnel money.








FirmhandKY -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/20/2008 7:18:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

But you don't get police protection, fire protection, the use of the mail, the use of our roads, benefits from any government regulation like safe drugs and food. You can't fly, either. We taxpayers fund the FAA.

Who can come up with some more stuff that these extreme radical righties would have to forego?


There is just sooooo much to give you back on this assertion of yours!

How about this one ...

Currently, more than 1/3rd of people requried to file income taxes in the US do not pay any income taxes (including non-filers).  24% of all eligible people who file pay NO income tax, or actually get more money back than they put in.

I guess this 24% shouldn't get the use of any government services?  How about restricting their right to vote until they start paying taxes?

I think I might be able to support that.

Firm



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/20/2008 10:31:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

But you don't get police protection, fire protection, the use of the mail, the use of our roads, benefits from any government regulation like safe drugs and food. You can't fly, either. We taxpayers fund the FAA.

Who can come up with some more stuff that these extreme radical righties would have to forego?


There is just sooooo much to give you back on this assertion of yours!

How about this one ...

Currently, more than 1/3rd of people requried to file income taxes in the US do not pay any income taxes (including non-filers).  24% of all eligible people who file pay NO income tax, or actually get more money back than they put in.

I guess this 24% shouldn't get the use of any government services?  How about restricting their right to vote until they start paying taxes?

I think I might be able to support that.

Firm
They pay sales taxes. They pay ad valorem taxes. Some of them pay property taxes. They pay FICA, FUT, and SUT taxes. They pay all kinds of taxes, just not income.

I seriously doubt you could survive with your voluntary association of other "libertarians". If you think you can, do it. Nobody's stopping you. Get some investors together and buy the land for your tollpike. Start your libertarian Farmer's Market. Better make your own fuel for that, because you won't get any more subsidized fuel. Try flying 200 cases of tomatoes to market on your ultralight.

I'm a Libertarian Socialist. I'm all for much of what the Libertarians stand for. Where I differ is that I consider Responsibility to Society to be as important as individual freedom. "No man is an island."



FirmhandKY -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/20/2008 6:53:52 PM)

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ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

They pay sales taxes. They pay ad valorem taxes. Some of them pay property taxes. They pay FICA, FUT, and SUT taxes. They pay all kinds of taxes, just not income.

How much in taxes is "enough" to you? (and, btw, this totally undercuts your entire argument.  We were talking about income taxes, and you had to go and change the subject.  Since "everyone" pays sales taxes, property taxes, even if they don't pay income taxes ... then they are entitled to use all the services you first mentioned.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I seriously doubt you could survive with your voluntary association of other "libertarians". If you think you can, do it. Nobody's stopping you. Get some investors together and buy the land for your tollpike. Start your libertarian Farmer's Market. Better make your own fuel for that, because you won't get any more subsidized fuel. Try flying 200 cases of tomatoes to market on your ultralight.

Sorry, but everything I mentioned in my "not tax supported" list works just fine, and thrives in America.

It's amazing how much people can do when the tax burden is low.  We sometimes manage to run a business, grow and sell our crops and even .... gasp! ... eat without government "help".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I'm a Libertarian Socialist. I'm all for much of what the Libertarians stand for. Where I differ is that I consider Responsibility to Society to be as important as individual freedom. "No man is an island."

Sometimes, the most responsible thing you can do for a person, or a society, is force it to stand on their (its) own two feet, and discover that - to a large extent - they are responsible for themselves.

Firm



NumberSix -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/20/2008 6:59:13 PM)

But as we cast a little thought experiment into this lofty rhetoric, we are facing two choices.

Tax and Spend

or

Spend and Borrow

I am unaware at any great groundswell to consider a third option, and that disregard is a matter of some velleity, and problem enough to consider,  I think.

6




farglebargle -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/20/2008 7:08:17 PM)

How about we just fire all the Federal Employees, and save a shitload of money?

That way my tax dollars in the lower 48 won't be wasted on Bridges to Nowhere....




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/20/2008 8:09:35 PM)

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

They pay sales taxes. They pay ad valorem taxes. Some of them pay property taxes. They pay FICA, FUT, and SUT taxes. They pay all kinds of taxes, just not income.

How much in taxes is "enough" to you? (and, btw, this totally undercuts your entire argument.  We were talking about income taxes, and you had to go and change the subject.  Since "everyone" pays sales taxes, property taxes, even if they don't pay income taxes ... then they are entitled to use all the services you first mentioned.)
Es tut mir Leid, Komrade, but my original statement was this: "I'd be absolutely thrilled to let you opt out of paying any taxes." The astute reader will note the type of tax is not defined. If you want to opt out of all taxes, you don't get to use any government services. PERIOD.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I seriously doubt you could survive with your voluntary association of other "libertarians". If you think you can, do it. Nobody's stopping you. Get some investors together and buy the land for your tollpike. Start your libertarian Farmer's Market. Better make your own fuel for that, because you won't get any more subsidized fuel. Try flying 200 cases of tomatoes to market on your ultralight.

Sorry, but everything I mentioned in my "not tax supported" list works just fine, and thrives in America.

It's amazing how much people can do when the tax burden is low.  We sometimes manage to run a business, grow and sell our crops and even .... gasp! ... eat without government "help".
And your "Libertarian" (quotation marks because term was hijacked in 1971 by Rothbard et alia) (I was once a member of the party. Then I came to understand that "freedom" comes with a price, and that price has nothing to do with the military) solution is to remove any controls, and if I am poisoned by your toxic tomatoes, I should seek redress in the courts, is that right? I would just as soon have some Govt. oversight and not get poisoned in the first place. Fat lot of good being able to sue does me if I'm dead.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I'm a Libertarian Socialist. I'm all for much of what the Libertarians stand for. Where I differ is that I consider Responsibility to Society to be as important as individual freedom. "No man is an island."

Sometimes, the most responsible thing you can do for a person, or a society, is force it to stand on their (its) own two feet, and discover that - to a large extent - they are responsible for themselves.

Firm

And so glibly you cast those who need assistance to reach their full potential onto the ashheap because they aren't like you. They can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps (and, if you were completely honest with yourself, you'd admit that you didn't get to where you are, wherever that is, totally and completely by yourself)(I sure as fuck didn't and I haven't drawn a paycheck in 15 years and I don't have to work now. I benefitted from the NYState educational system, from basic grants for college, from preferential job treatment because I was a student, from NOT being red-lined for loans or credit, and a host of other intangibles).  So callously you tell the millions of people in this country who have experienced institutionaized racism, redlining, credit discrimination, overwhelming medical costs, a decline in real earnings, the transfer of their pensions to Wall Street criminals, that "if they would only stand on their own two feet, they wouldn't be in that situation."

I've listened to this tripe for over 30 years, since before the "Libertarian Party" was HQ'd out on the Katy Freeway (IIRC). I read "How I Found Freedom In An Unfree World" way back around 76 or so. I read "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Virtue of Selfishness" (still have a copy). It was sophomoric rhetoric then, and it's sophomoric rhetoric today.

Ask yourself this: if "Lib'ism" (tired of typing that out. it's my shorthand now) is such a wonderful philosophy of socio-economic liberation, why has it been relegated to the margins (even behind the Green Party, which I support) of American political discourse?  Oh, I know, *people just can't see how right it is*. The fools. If only people could see that flying their 200 cases of tomatoes to the Farmer's market on their ultralight was in their best interests, they'd adopt it tout de suite.

Your "Lib'ian" philosophy just doesn't work. If it did, it would. Q.E.D.



slaveboyforyou -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/20/2008 8:14:46 PM)

quote:

Oh, "convicted felons."
That's another block of voters that Abadabba won't be getting.


It depends on the state, Popeye.  My little brother is a 3 time convicted felon (yeah, he's a fuck up).  He's on parole right now, and they told him he could get his voting rights back once his sentence was finished.  It's like that in a lot of states.  Of course, my brother doesn't give a shit.  I don't think he voted before he got sent to the joint. 



FirmhandKY -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/20/2008 9:31:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix

But as we cast a little thought experiment into this lofty rhetoric, we are facing two choices.

Tax and Spend

or

Spend and Borrow

I am unaware at any great groundswell to consider a third option, and that disregard is a matter of some velleity, and problem enough to consider,  I think.


Yes, that does seem to be the two options, nowadays, I'll agree.

I know that I'm in the minority here, and it would take a major change in world-views to alter the path we seem to be one.

But just because we aren't acting responsibility in our political system doesn't mean we should just give up and/or assume that these two ways are the only (or even the best) ways.

Firm



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/20/2008 10:57:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
But just because we aren't acting responsibility in our political system doesn't mean we should just give up and/or assume that these two ways are the only (or even the best) ways.

Firm
But when those of us who believe something is irretreivably broken, like the US healthcare system, dare suggest we try something which has apparently worked in EVERY OTHER WESTERN INDUSTRIALIZED COUNTRY, certain people do nothing more than piss and moan about "Global Socialism" (whatever THAT is) and categorically reject it out of hand. Then they side politically and economically with HealthSouth and Kaiser-Permanente and Wellstar, as though those entities actually have as their priority their clients' health.

That scumbag cocksucker Nixon is the one who fucked us with this HMO shit; when that proved to be an unmitigated disaster, the insurance companies changed names to PPOs and so on. Still a very similar system to the Nixon/Kaiser antitrust collusion.

When people like me want to try something which might work better, we are faced with total naysaying obstruction from ideologues whose faith in "free markets" (what a sick joke) is stronger than their faith in the "god" they pay lip service to on Sundays.

And I find it unbelievably ironic that many of those who oppose single-payer health care are Veterans, who get free health care, and don't even have a fucking dog in the hunt. It's just fine for them to suck off the government tit, but Communism when I am willing to actually pay taxes for such a system.

And that's just one example. If you REALLY want to live in a society that works, you cannot be afraid to try new things. Fuck all this idiotic "Socialism for the Rich, Free market for everyone else". Certain things have worked really well in other countries; let us not be afraid to try them here.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Betting on John McCain (9/21/2008 8:45:25 AM)

Hippie,

I don't think you really have a clue about my beliefs. Like many, you simply have a screed of belief that you wish to force onto anyone who you think dares to disagree with you in the slightest.

You, my friend, are as much a partisan political hack for "your way" as the very people you castigate with such venom. And just as blind (prove me wrong, and I'll retract.)

I have a balanced view (IMO). Do we need taxes? Yup. Do we need government? Yup. Do I have "libertarian" views on many issues? Yup, somewhat. I simply think that many people have a simplistic and incorrect view of how to "fix" societal problems, and by default see only the easy route of force and coercion through government mandate.

The problem is that many people with beliefs such as yours see "more taxes" and "more government" as the answer to all of life's ills. A government program is the default answer, new laws the preferred method, and higher taxes the needed mechanism to fund the solution.

My examples of some of the free enterprises solutions to the services you mentioned was meant to show you that government programs aren't necessarily the only way (nor, sometimes, even the best way) to approach solutions to the world's problems.

The key question I asked you was "How much taxes is enough?", which you have never answered. I didn't expect you to, either, because in your world view, the answer seems to be "enough to fix all the problems". The issue is, it never will fix "all" the "problems".

You may admit - theoretically - that sometimes less than 100% of income ought to be taxed, but operationally your default approach to any problem is more taxes and more government.

There will never be enough tax money to cure all the worlds problems. Many problems simply can't be successfully addressed by "more taxes" and "more government" without the cure being worst than the disease.

Scream and hyperventilate all you wish, but your idealism is as worthless and bankrupt as the ideas you rail against.

Firm



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