RE: Struggling

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LadyAngelika -> RE: Struggling (12/1/2005 5:19:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig quote: But these are his internal strugggles primarily and I have my own. We don't have things I would call "struggles" in the relationship design itself or with my right and responsibilities of authority. If we had these sorts of struggles we would not be together. I consider such relationship roles and dynamic struggles to be either a sign you shouldn't be together (beyond a few months of figuring this out) or to be the venue of vanilla relationships. I'm happy to see so many responses which resonate with me, because i'm not yet massively secure in my role as a domina, and struggle internally as everyone else (if not more). M I'm very happy to see the responses as well. I agree with everyone here that too much struggle is an indication that the relationship might not be right. With my previous boy, there was a whole lot of struggle, and though I loved him dearly, I realised one day that the struggle would never end because our desires, principles and ideals were not aligned. Since I have found that alignment now, I find that that struggles seem smaller, like challenges to work through, not get frustrated over. In fact, I feel a very low level of frustration when it comes to him. The only frustration comes from the distance. Thanks all for your answers. I look forward to hearing more perspectives! - LA

MsIncognito -> RE: Struggling (12/1/2005 5:37:53 AM)
As a bottomy-type I don't have a problem with struggling per se. I don't think it is a sign of weakness or a sign that someone is a bad bottom/sub/slave or any of that nonsense. What I do have a problem with is people who think that if you aren't struggling with the things they think you should struggle with that you are either lieing to them and/or yourself or you're repressing your feelings (I've heard this sentiment from both Tops and bottoms). What I don't understand is why some Tops seem to really want their bottoms to struggle and are disappointed when they don't. I have a theory about that :D I think that for many Tops it is an ego booster for several reasons. First, they really feel their sense of power - "See how I can make him/her struggle? Now that's power." Second, it feeds into the "helper" complex that many Tops harbour - "Now that I've made him/her struggle I can be the Knight in shining armour by helping him/her through his/her struggle" which leads to the third reason - Ego. "Damn I feel good about myself now that I've helped my him/her through this struggle." Don't get me wrong, helping each other is an integral part of a meaningful relationship, at least for me. However, it seems that some Tops just don't feel "Toppy" if their bottom isn't struggling with something...like they're not doing their job right or something. That's what I don't get. I'm not the type of person who struggles a lot. I think that is because I am a very rational person when it's called for. I'm not one to give knee jerk emotional reactions to many situations. I guess that's how I deal with struggle - I circumvent it altogether by applying rational thought to situations. I'm also fairly confident in my ability to handle situations rather than letting situations handle me. For sure, there are things I would struggle with if a Top were to take the time to get to know me well enough to go there. I think it takes a fairly perceptive and intuitive person with a good understanding of psychology to take me to those places and in my experience those Tops are few and far between. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika So essentially, I have two questions - How do you feel about the struggle? - How do you deal with it? and I’d love to hear perspectives from people with both dominant and submissive tendencies.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Struggling (12/1/2005 5:45:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsIncognito Don't get me wrong, helping each other is an integral part of a meaningful relationship, at least for me. However, it seems that some Tops just don't feel "Toppy" if their bottom isn't struggling with something...like they're not doing their job right or something. That's what I don't get. That is a very interesting perspective, one which I had not considered until now. I had to take a moment to think about it, and then I realised that last night, my boy told me that he's learned a lot since he's been with me and my answer to him was that I've learned a lot from him and by being with him too. I guess I see the struggle as something that is inevitable but like everything else in life has a good side and a bad side. The bad side is that it makes us feel unstable while it lasts, and the good side is that we come out of it stronger, like any challenge really. - LA

plantlady64 -> RE: Struggling (12/1/2005 7:04:32 AM)
Hello There, I think a big part of what turns me on in my submission is the fact I struggle against my own will to be found pleasing & willing to my Master or the Dom I play with. For example if my boobs are really sore and my Master reaches up to pinch them unexpectedly for example. We both find it sexy my body language says no, but yes for you in that instant. It's the submission and Domination of the energy exchange that thrills me most when I struggle and give in. I also find the struggle working itself through leaves me more trusting, closer, and more vulnerable and at the same time gives me confidence & boosts my self esteem. Sincerely, sub suzanne

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Struggling (12/1/2005 9:26:06 AM)
I don't want this to be a personal question, so feel free to ignore it----for those of you dealing with long distance relationships, online ones, etc---- Just what kinds of things are you struggling over? How is a person who you never see really submitting to you in a way that makes him or her fight for it? Are you doing behavior modification work? I had a long distance relationship with a person I saw pretty much every weekend. (Struggle? OH yeah! Love without understanding is a difficult path.) He is hardly an example of what a good submissive was, but the memory made me wonder what kind of work others are doing. F

veronicaofML -> RE: Struggling (12/1/2005 10:04:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsIncognito Don't get me wrong, helping each other is an integral part of a meaningful relationship, at least for me. However, it seems that some Tops just don't feel "Toppy" if their bottom isn't struggling with something...like they're not doing their job right or something. That's what I don't get. =========== WHOA!!!!!!! like as if you are reading my mind here. Mistress just told me recently She felt like a failure because i do not respond to what She thinks i should respond to. She said She didnt feel like a proper Mistress. i had-to remind Her i am only-------domestics. not a do me boy. She is understanding better now. all those do-me-now guys that contact Her.....all about sex and s/m and not one asks "what can i actually do for You"....... they expect HER to do for them but they don't wanna do for HER........ riddle me that one. oh yes. Mistress thoughtline i guess is a bear according to Her...when a "boy" doesn't respond like the media says he should. take care

fldrkhorse -> RE: Struggling (12/1/2005 10:21:33 AM)
I've found submissives enjoying pushing back for a series of reasons. 1. Attention - bad behavior gets them attention 2. Testing - they want to know the Master is serious and the Masters power is greater then thier ego. For many, especially men, it's a dance. I give an inch and you take and inch. Then I'll give another inch, etc.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Struggling (12/1/2005 11:32:03 AM)
I love to dance, heaven knows. What I don't like is having to PROVE constantly that I am domly enough. I am a good dominant with many years of realtime experience. Quien es mas macho? Yo. That said, I am not the right domme for everyone---and I tend to show my dominance by example, by being the kind of person my man (or my office staff, or students!) respects, listens to, and follows. I worked for years with emotionally and learning disabled children. I cannot be goaded into displays of temper. I have very few hot buttons. (Granted, they are pretty large.) I do not respond favorably to attempts to undermine my decisions, SAM type behavior, or the submissive who will try to trip me up by doing something I hate and waiting to be caught. If I ignore the faux pas, I am not a good domme, eh? Sure. F

imtempting -> RE: Struggling (12/2/2005 7:06:30 AM)
As others have said too much struggleing and id be looking at the relationship, Weather your suited or not to be together. At first there will be struggle as each tests the grounds. See how far you can push things. Over time and punishment these will fade as lessons learnt will be remebered.

LadiesBladewing -> RE: Struggling (12/2/2005 7:45:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika {clipped} So essentially, I have two questions - How do you feel about the struggle? - How do you deal with it? and I’d love to hear perspectives from people with both dominant and submissive tendencies. - LA Struggle is an inherent part of change. I'd hazard that if there is no struggle, there is no real change. Because of the kind of relationship we have with our servants, we -expect- that there are going to be some struggles, and some points of resistance. In the end, as long as our servant(s) yield, and we can see in their eyes and feel in their presence that they are actually -at peace- with the change, everything is good. We have a servant now who has really struggled with some of what we've asked of her. With time, and our willingness to acknowledge that she struggled, and that we would not hate her or toss her away for her efforts in coming to terms with what we wanted, we've seen some amazing growth in her, and seen beauty start to bloom in some wounded places as well. Someone earlier stated that if there was continuous struggle, that would be a warning sign for them. I feel somewhat the same way. I think, for me, if I saw that a servant never did come to peace with something, I would have to dig around a bit to find out what was hindering the progress. Maybe some old garbage got brought up by the situation -- and sometimes, just time to think things through is enough... but if every single thing that we said, did, or brought into play resulted in horrible struggles by our servant to bring things into perspective, and those struggles continued with no real resolution, I'd have to say that that servant wasn't in a place where he or she could really benefit from being with us. We had this situation come up recently here, with a another trainee servant whom we really did (and do) cherish very deeply. Once she started actively working with us though, it became apparent that what we asked of her was a -real- struggle for her, and not one that she was in a position to be able to release and grow from. After a couple of months, it was pretty clear that she wasn't in a position to grow with us... not right now. Maybe, at some point, what we offer and what she wants/needs will be compatible. We still cherish her, but she was in a place where what we are wasn't a good match for her. Letting her go was painful, because we -had- come to cherish her deeply, but sometimes, people just need to go the way that they need to go, and continuing to try to force her into a mold that wasn't right for her wasn't serving either her or our House. Lady Zephyr

UtopianRanger -> RE: Struggling (12/2/2005 8:37:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika Now perhaps my theory is way off base. Perhaps it is possible to submit without a struggle. Not being a submissive type, I’m in no place to say for sure. So essentially, I have two questions - How do you feel about the struggle? - How do you deal with it? and I’d love to hear perspectives from people with both dominant and submissive tendencies. - LA To me submission is an ongoing process. Its not a one day I decided to be his and all of a sudden I submitted and bam. To me its a journey that never ends and does always involve struggle. I think the struggle has definitely lessened and typically only happens over the big things, but it still happens. And I view it as being part and parcel as constantly aligning and adjusting to his will, and so long as he is doing what he wants then I'll be adjusting and trying to keep up. C~ Extremely well said..... I concur completely. Whether it be sports, business, politics, or any other endeavors throughout my life, I have always taken on a dominant role. All of my prior relationships up until this point have always been with submissive women. For some reason though, I have always held an admiration for dominant women. It's not just any dominant woman though.... she has to be unique in that she is extremely intelligent and ambitious in her career. Our goals and values platforms need to be in alignment. And even then, I still struggle with many aspects of the thought of submission. Now at the time, I was receiving between eight and twenty-five unsolicited messages a week from women everywhere. I had even received messages from women in Bucharest and Switzerland. But nothing ever clicked and I felt no connection. Far and away, I was most impressed with a handful of ladies I met on this message board. I thought they were all attractive and normal as all hell. But there was one problem... they were all far away! Then, by pure happenstance in late July, I started to chat with Lady Angelika via IM. Our first few chats were nothing more than general BS, but after a two week hiatus of no chats due to her best friend coming to visit, I started to chat with her again in early September. Shortly thereafter, I started to talk with her on the phone. At times, our conversations lasted six and seven hours. In one month we talked over 6500 minutes!! My attraction for her grew and grew - It was amazing. What was even more amazing is that her dominant personality was classy, seductive and totally not overbearing. Contrary to the stereotypical guy who likes dominant women, the last thing I ever wanted was a leather-clad, thigh high, boot wearing bitch. I wanted a lady that was loving, understanding, open-minded, and above all a great communicator. And with Lady A, I think the man upstairs blessed me. Do I still struggle with a Lady who has a dominant personality - Hell yeah! But it gets better every day. I appreciate and thank this site for serving up Lady A, and all the good posts from the brilliant participants here. The Ranger

kc692 -> RE: Struggling (12/2/2005 3:50:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger quote: ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika Now perhaps my theory is way off base. Perhaps it is possible to submit without a struggle. Not being a submissive type, I’m in no place to say for sure. So essentially, I have two questions - How do you feel about the struggle? - How do you deal with it? and I’d love to hear perspectives from people with both dominant and submissive tendencies. - LA To me submission is an ongoing process. Its not a one day I decided to be his and all of a sudden I submitted and bam. To me its a journey that never ends and does always involve struggle. I think the struggle has definitely lessened and typically only happens over the big things, but it still happens. And I view it as being part and parcel as constantly aligning and adjusting to his will, and so long as he is doing what he wants then I'll be adjusting and trying to keep up. C~ Extremely well said..... I concur completely. Whether it be sports, business, politics, or any other endeavors throughout my life, I have always taken on a dominant role. All of my prior relationships up until this point have always been with submissive women. For some reason though, I have always held an admiration for dominant women. It's not just any dominant woman though.... she has to be unique in that she is extremely intelligent and ambitious in her career. Our goals and values platforms need to be in alignment. And even then, I still struggle with many aspects of the thought of submission. Now at the time, I was receiving between eight and twenty-five unsolicited messages a week from women everywhere. I had even received messages from women in Bucharest and Switzerland. But nothing ever clicked and I felt no connection. Far and away, I was most impressed with a handful of ladies I met on this message board. I thought they were all attractive and normal as all hell. But there was one problem... they were all far away! Then, by pure happenstance in late July, I started to chat with Lady Angelika via IM. Our first few chats were nothing more than general BS, but after a two week hiatus of no chats due to her best friend coming to visit, I started to chat with her again in early September. Shortly thereafter, I started to talk with her on the phone. At times, our conversations lasted six and seven hours. In one month we talked over 6500 minutes!! My attraction for her grew and grew - It was amazing. What was even more amazing is that her dominant personality was classy, seductive and totally not overbearing. Contrary to the stereotypical guy who likes dominant women, the last thing I ever wanted was a leather-clad, thigh high, boot wearing bitch. I wanted a lady that was loving, understanding, open-minded, and above all a great communicator. And with Lady A, I think the man upstairs blessed me. Do I still struggle with a Lady who has a dominant personality - Hell yeah! But it gets better every day. I appreciate and thank this site for serving up Lady A, and all the good posts from the brilliant participants here. The Ranger Ranger, I gotta tell ya....glad it's out in the open, smiles, and you know I agree with the fact you are with one classy Lady, as I wuvs her very much, smiles. I won't even try to guess how many male submissives wish they were you right now, but gotta say this on the flip side; it takes a unique combination in a possible partner to attract the interest of someone like LadyA too, so that says alot positive about your personality also. BTW, smiles, thanks for thinking we are normal, lol, so many don't, lol.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Struggling (12/2/2005 4:17:43 PM)
quote: Someone earlier stated that if there was continuous struggle, that would be a warning sign for them. I feel somewhat the same way. I agree. That is why in my initial post I said there was a little struggle. Obviously with Ranger & I there is the additional external variable of distance which adds a struggle. And to answer a question posed earlier, the distance doesn't change much. The power dynamics and love dynamics for us are soul/mind/body. The minds and the souls have met. The bodies will meet soon enough. Thanks to all the input, to my boy for such a lovely post and kc, I think you are normal too, diva! - LA

Sensualips -> RE: Struggling (12/2/2005 9:35:04 PM)
I am suspicious if things are "too easy."

afmvdp -> RE: Struggling (12/3/2005 7:03:26 AM)
I think it is not only natural but necessary to have struggle. Just like a child will test their parents to know where there hard limits are, so will a sub or slave. It is this process of grinding away and standing strong that creates the actual foundation for Dominance and submission. Besides, isn't overcoming the resistance and the thrill of the hunt half the fun of the whole process? hah

Padriag -> RE: Struggling (12/3/2005 10:01:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika So essentially, I have two questions - How do you feel about the struggle? - How do you deal with it? and I’d love to hear perspectives from people with both dominant and submissive tendencies. - LA Lots of good stuff said already (damn I wish I had more time to post!) Like so many others I feel a certain amount of struggle is normal. Its natural for someone to be fearful of change, of new things, of uncertainty. These all make new relationships difficult in the beginning and requires a period of adjustment as we get accustomed to it. I once wrote in an essay that part of assessing a slave meant looking at her past experiences and past training (which reminds me I was gonna post that essay for folks to read... knew I was forgetting to do something). When someone has been taught by their experience, or outright trained, to behave in one way and then meets a dominant that wants to do things differently you have to expect and allow them a period of time to adjust to that change, its going to be a struggle. The struggle is the conflict between what past experience and training have taught them to expect, vs. new expectations they are trying to adjust to... our expectations are a powerful influence over our reactions and behavior. It's a perfectly natural form of struggle. As for how I deal with it. It takes patience, encouragement, awareness of what is causing the struggle and working on whatever is causing the problem. In most cases I don't view struggle as a bad thing. If they are struggling to comply, even if they are failing, it indiciates they are trying to obey. I agree with others that if the struggle becomes continuous even too strenuous, I become concerned that what I expect may simply be asking too much of that individual. At that point I have a choice, I can either change my expectation (which I might do if its something that isn't important to me), or I can let the person go (because if the expectation is important and they are having that much of a problem with it, then we do not appear to be a good match and its healthier for us both to let go).

LadySonelle -> RE: Struggling (12/3/2005 10:32:47 AM)
Value comes from effort. If a boy simply drops trou and accepts a hard spanking without a murmur, then that's good! I enjoy the spanking and so does he... but if a boy shows he is nervous, removes his clothing with growing anxiety, his breathing quickens and he shows by his actions that I frighten him... and he still assumes the correct posture for a spanking... he has shown Me that his will is stronger than his fear or reticemce. Ih effect, (in the first example) he gave Me his butt to be paddled, but he has ALSO given Me his fear, his will to continue and his surrender despite that fear. In the first example, I have been given the slave's body. Now his heart and mind might be included or might not... I don't know. His compliance was awift and eager and so I assume he has given all of himself... in the latter example, I know he has given Me himself because I saw the gift taking place! I may not yet have his heart, but I know he has offered it into My mercy. The struggle to submit is one that makes the submissive the more valuable in My eyes. It is the gift of the sub's trust and that is a gem of great price, indeed. Each slave or sub has his own style, his own fashion of play and thus, I need to discern in each, the method of giving and acknowledge the value of it. No two slaves are alike. Lady Sonelle

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