RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (Full Version)

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Lynnxz -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/22/2008 12:33:54 AM)

I think it was 1300 for a weekend....

Pretty standard.

She did seem like she didn't interact much for those two days. While she can't be expected to play with you 24/7, I'd have expected a bit more than one spanking, and a bit of foot worship.






ElanSubdued -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/22/2008 12:36:00 AM)

MaleSlaveAnon,

I'm not going to sugarcoat this.  You're letting your desire for kink lead you around.  Given the responses this Domme has given, it's very clear she isn't interested in you as a relationship partner.  The reason you feel she gave you no time is that she in fact gave you very little time.  The reason her IM responses feel minimal and cold is that they are.  Your gut instinct and feelings are not steering you wrong.  The best thing you can do is to drop this woman quickly.  I guaranfuckingtee that if you proceed with this woman, later on you'll be crying the blues about how poorly she treated you and how much money you lost before she dumped you.  The Domme you're talking to has "scammer", "self-centered bitch", and "usurer" written all over her.  She knows exactly how to push your buttons, turn you on, make you feel guilty, etc.  Remember the axiom about a fool and his money?  Don't fall into this trap.  Get out now before you lose more sanity, time, and money.

Edited to add:  read your last reply in this thread again - the one where you quote the Domme and put your feelings in parenthesis.  You already know what I've written is true because you've said all of this with different words.

Elan.




MsSaskia -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/22/2008 2:11:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued
Generally, professional Dominas don't have relationships with their clients.  Clients are *clients*.  You pay and the Domme renders service as agreed upon.  It's a financial transaction.  That's all there is to it.  Professionals would go out of business if they engaged in relationships with their clients because generally once a relationship starts, a "client" becomes a friend, boyfriend, etc. and no longer pays.

This is a HUGE RED FLAG.  Professionals are not looking for dating relationships with clients.  This is the reciprocal of my comment above.  Professionals are *professionals*.  A professional sees clients because these people are their revenue stream.  It's a job.  Just like at work, you don't go to work for shits and giggles with your boss.  Rather, you go to work because your boss pays you.  You're the boss here.  Once you've paid and the job is done, the contractor (in this case the Domina) has no more interest in you - she's rendered the service and has been paid.  Now sure, you can hire the Domina again and she may well take the contract, but this is her job, not her personal life.  When work is done, she wants to leave work at work (and in this case the work she wants to leave behind is *you*).

For accuracy, I'll add this side note.  On extremely rare occasions, a professional domina does fall in love with a client.  Usually, at this point, the client ceases being a client and becomes a boyfriend, pet, husband, what-have-you.  This isn't the norm.  In fact, in the pro-Domme world, given that many clients are actually people looking for relationships, this is one of the things a professional Domina must filter out.  Unethical professionals use the "dating hook" to bilk money from people who otherwise wouldn't pay for services.  Ethical professionals usually turn away such clients because this sets up both the client and the Domina for mismatched expectations.  A job usually doesn't go well when the boss and workers have different expectations as to what constitutes a satisfactory outcome.


Maybe you're trying the tough love approach here, but things are not that black and white in this industry or in any other.  Not every relationship is a full romance, not every work situation is sterile and devoid of emotion, and no, the client is most certainly not the boss of his pro domme.  He's a client.  Ethical professional do not hold out false hope for relationships outside the professional session.  Since the pro domme/client relationship is not psychotherapy, there is no ethical reason we cannot become friends with clients outside professional sessions any more than any other professional.  Boundaries sometimes need to be clarified, just like any other relationship - business or otherwise.  Not every client wants to have a full, permanent, monogamous relationship with someone he first saw as a pro domme, and not all clients are incapable of understanding or preferring boundaries.   Hanging out time is clear, play time is clear.  Nobody has to go away feeling cheated, heartbroken or otherwise left with the feeling that something is missing.   If I get to know someone over time and it turns out that we have interests beyond just what we do in a session, we'll start socializing outside of sessions.  It doesn't happen with every client and it doesn't happen with most clients or even a third of clients, but I've had some become close friends over the years and have stayed close friends.  And they still see me for sessions.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.  You know, in the interest of accuracy. 




ElanSubdued -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/22/2008 2:47:14 AM)

MsSaskia,

I'm not disagreeing with what you've said.  Truly, I don't see professional dominas as heartless women who do their jobs with no sense of humanity or friendship.  As for your assertion that the client is not the boss, you're right, but neither are they a traditional customer.  I used the boss metaphor to get across the idea that this is a professional engagement, not a romantic, social encounter.

So now lets look at the OP.  He's setting up appointments with professional dominas in the hope of starting a relationship.  Ultimately, he'd like to meet someone to become his wife.  Whoops.  There is a huge impedance mismatch here and quite a bit of subterfuge going on.  That's why I came down in a cold, black and white fashion.  You thought that perhaps I was using a "tough love" approach.  Yes, you're absolutely correct.

Elan.




MsCfromMelbourne -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/22/2008 3:37:24 AM)

Oh for crying out loud, MaleSlaveAnon........just admit that you are just not that into her!!!

I will not presume to judge if this woman is a scammer or not.  Plenty of pro-dommes have slaves who hand over their wages.  Let he or she who is without sin cast the first stone.

One man's meat is another's poison.  Some men would happily pay $1,350 a month to be cuckolded, ignored and dismayed. 

If you really liked this Domme, you would not be writing these long, confusing posts asking a bunch of strangers what we think of her. 

If you really liked this Domme, you would be happy to hand over your money.  You would want to financially support her.

It is sooo obvious you do not really like this Domme. 

Just get real and tell the Domme you think she was really poor value for money.  And unless she drastically lifts her game, you won't be spending any more money on her.  She deserves a dose of the harsh truth.  




BoiJen -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/22/2008 8:35:35 PM)

Long time No See....

Anyways..

Sonds to me like the OP lacks serious negotiation skills and then wants to blame the Pro for his inability to stand by his unknown boundaries. Clients of Pro Dommes have responsibilities just as standard lifestyle, live-in s-types:

Establish you boundaries as clearly and explicitly as possible.
Stand by and back up your boundaries.
Don't expect more than what She's said She'll give.

In a poly relationship with a FemDomme being the poly head of household, I've seen quite frequently that said FemDomme does NOT like to share Her property or partners...I don't know why you seem surprised, OP. Love is subjective...try getting a definaition of what she means and making sure she knows what you mean.

There's a plethora of other reasons as to why this is all the Op's fault...none of them withstanding the standard rule of "She's in charge, you're not...if you're 600 miles away and She breaks a fingernail, it's still your fault."

And with that it's this boi's bedtime cuz I gota gets some learnin tomorrow.

boiJen




MsSaskia -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/22/2008 9:40:30 PM)

Yeah.  What you said.  The ability to say, "No, thanks" is highly underrated.




BoiJen -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/23/2008 6:39:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued
This is a HUGE RED FLAG.  Professionals are not looking for dating relationships with clients.  This is the reciprocal of my comment above.  Professionals are *professionals*.  A professional sees clients because these people are their revenue stream.  It's a job.  Just like at work, you don't go to work for shits and giggles with your boss.  Rather, you go to work because your boss pays you.  You're the boss here.  Once you've paid and the job is done, the contractor (in this case the Domina) has no more interest in you - she's rendered the service and has been paid.  Now sure, you can hire the Domina again and she may well take the contract, but this is her job, not her personal life.  When work is done, she wants to leave work at work (and in this case the work she wants to leave behind is *you*).
Elan.


Elan I often like you...so I have a burning need to explain this to you and the OP...

Professional domination is Domination. You pay to get told what to do and how to do it. Which makes the client not the "boss" of the Pro but the client. I don't get why on the outside some people think that Pro Dommes get paid to do explicitly what their clients want them to do. That just blows my mind.

As a consumer, yes the OP needs to make sure that he and the Pro Domme have at least similar ideas on what domination looks like. Thus the negotiation process. Just like dealing with anyother contractor..."I want you to remodle my bathroom..." just doesn't cut it. They negotiate through what that looks like and what the contractor's fees are. If at that point in time you say to the contractor "whatever you think will work." The contractor then has complete leeway to do whatever they want for however much they want as you have not negotiated the job at all. Same-same with Pro Domination.

As the OP fucked up royally and is finally seeing that he wants to push it off on the Pro Domme.

Now, could this Pro show some ethical fiber, and say "Hey, you really need to figure this out some more then come to Me."? Yeah she could and she chose not to. Is that reason enough not to see her...possibly. Depends on who you are.

BTW footworship in MsK's house often happens in front of the TV...which means I'm not the center of attention. Footworship is not about being doted on while it happens. It's about the interaction of the bottom and the Top's Feet. He got what he asked for in that instance as well as the GS...she peed on him...whatelse is there to it? if he doesn't like being objectified, he needs to be clear about that. The Pro Domme is not a mind reader and expecting her to be so is incredibly rediculous.

boiJen
off to school




undergroundsea -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/23/2008 8:10:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen


Each relationship fares as it does based on the balance of costs and rewards, and at this time I think the costs are overwhelming the rewards from the OP's perspective.

I think what makes the matter confusing is that it's not clear to what extent it is a personal relationship, and to what extent a professional one. The OP is taking a transactional approach (references to bulk time, what else he can do with his money) that suggests a professional arrangement and consumer mindset, and there are elements of interaction that are at least somewhat outside the professional relationship. I expect the nature of the relationship--that it is meant to be somewhat personal but involves a monthly payment in some given amount to sustain it--plays a role in creating this confusion.

In either case, I sense that the OP feels he is not getting enough energy and time in return. It is indeed possible to dominate or submit without being fully present, and I sense the OP feels that is what is occurring; I see references to it about the time at home, the time at club, and the degree of attention in the IMs. As I read it, his complaint is not that she peed on him but that he gave a tribute that is along the lines of a sizeable period of attention, and he did not receive adequate attention. Given that he traveled a long distance (either 400 miles or 4 hours of driving each way) and gave a sizeable amount of money, I think his expectations for more focused time are reasonable.

I agree that he may not have defined what he wants, and that there seems to be inadequate negotiation. However, I lay burden for that as much with her. And, at least from the information given in the OP, he has made greater effort at such communication. The human tendency for greed and taking a free lunch when the opportunity is there makes it possible for me to imagine that she would be content to give as little as needed and have $1000+ flowing in each month from someone for whom she seems to care little. My knowledge about the matter is limited to what is presented and this information does suggest that such a scenario is occurring here.

It's possible we might have two inexperienced persons interacting here. I think the term professional in reality spans a broad range of competency. When I think of a professional, I think of someone who takes their profession seriously, develops competence, and generally carries a sense of compassion and an interest in the experience of their clients, however that is conveyed for any given client. And there are people who identify as professionals for sake of earning potential but give little energy in return. It is not clear to me where she falls on this spectrum. That she plans to work out of his apartment (which makes me wonder where she is currently practicing) and the loosely defined scenario leave me unclear about what her competency level is.

I congratulate you for finding a relationship with a domme where you can give complete trust and devotion, and which has fared as well as it has. However, I do not think every dominant can expect complete trust and impunity simply for identifying as a dominant. I think dominance and submission are randomly distributed across population and you will find in each all types of personality traits. Therefore, I subscribe to the dominant is always right philosophy not on basis of how one identifies but only when it has been earned and mutually upheld.

I want to clarify that I do not know enough about the OP and his motivation to defend him. I direct my comments at a general scenario with similar circumstances, and find myself unimpressed with what information is presented about the domme. I recognize that the information given presents one side only and direct my comments on the basis of information that has been presented, and gaps that I am able to fill in with my intuition and my experiences.

Cheers,

Sea




undergroundsea -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/23/2008 8:26:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaleSlaveAnon
i don't care for the attitude of the only woman in my age range on collarme in California, so i have to go outside of my age range, which would be fine with me if they'd write back, but...  i tried about a hundred responses to craigslist ads, no cut and paste, written to the ad, without any replies back.  i went out with a very nice newly learning Domme from a BDSM class, but when i told her i have genital herpes ....  (i was hoping since i can provide oral well and don't expect intercourse it would be ok.)


That there would be only one woman in the age range you specified (60-70) in all of California did not seem right to me. I did a search for dominant women in CA with no other criteria except this age range and 12 entries showed up. When I changed the age range to 55-70, I saw almost two pages worth of profiles. Are you sure your filters were set right?

Is the attitude of the one woman to whom you refer worse than the attitude of the domme at hand, or is it more the sum of things?

Cheers,

Sea




LexiTempest -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/23/2008 1:47:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne

....plenty of older guys fall madly in love with Thai ladies and never come home....



More like ....plenty of older guys fall madly in love with taking advantage of young Thai ladies and tolerated prostitution and never come home....







BoiJen -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/24/2008 7:42:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LexiTempest

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne

....plenty of older guys fall madly in love with Thai ladies and never come home....



More like ....plenty of older guys fall madly in love with taking advantage of young Thai ladies and tolerated prostitution and never come home....



You seemed to be very confused about the nature of the cultural differences and seem to think that you're supposed to apply the American standard about prostitution and age differences amoung personal-buisness relationships. Those older guys are no more taking "advantage" of those nice young Thia girls, than those nice young American women would take "advantage" of that older guy's wallet. In Asian countries sex workers are unionized. They have more rights as a legal organization there than they do in almost anyother part of the world.

Try reading up on it rather than making a judgement to suit your own personal feelings and prejudices.




LadyPact -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/24/2008 9:44:46 AM)

Wow!  This is one heck of a thread.  It has gotten a bit long, but I wanted to thank those who took the time to post in it.  I've been rather interested.

I'm not going to quote anyone here, but I think some of the folks have nailed it.  I'd like to echo some of the things that have been said.  Please keep in mind, these comments from Me come from someone who is *just* a lifestyle Domme.  I am not now, nor have I ever been a professional.  My lack of knowledge for the field might color My views.

MaleSlaveAnon, it would seem to Me that if you are paying a professional, what you have is a business arrangement.  In other words, you pay, she Dominates.  A relationship is something else entirely.  Ask yourself an important question.  If you weren't paying, would she have any interest in you whatsoever?  That is not meant to be a snide remark.  I am phrasing it that way because you seem to be a bit confused about the two.  I think this is a huge mistake on your part in your approach. 

Let Me take this a step further.  A professional dominant can be viewed much like any other type of profession.  Just like a doctor, a lawyer, or a hairdresser, they get paid to provide a service.  Like any other profession, there are good ones and there are not so good ones.  Some are better at what they do than others.  Not everyone can be the best in their chosen field. Some actually give a damn about their clients, and others don't.  I should tell you, I have a particular disdain for the latter.  Your post here screams of the latter.

Even as *just* a lifestyle Domme, I know a thing or two about negotiation.  I think this was sorely lacking on both of your parts.  You did not approach this with what you expected for your money.  In turn, she did not list what she would provide for the payment received.  You did get to stay in her house and you did get to attend the club with her, so not all of your money was ill used.  Why there wasn't at least a good scene at the club, rather than her place as it might not be equipped, I can't say I understand.   I would have thought that would be a part of your business arrangement.  Were you not paying for play?

In undergroundsea's last comment to you, he mentioned strengthening your negotiation skills, and I would firmly agree.  Do what you need to do to get what you pay for.  I can't imagine anyone ever paying Me over a thousand dollars without getting some kind of return on the investment.  I am hoping you will contact him off of the boards for his help in bolstering your skills in this area.  It will help you to prevent yourself from falling for this kind of trap again.

Though My dear elan offered you advice mixed with tough love, I think you should listen to him.  He's not that far off of the mark, and you should hear his words.  He has a bit of wisdom in what he's said.

Please take your hopes out of all of this and look at it from a business standpoint.  Did you get what you expected from your cash investment?




MsCfromMelbourne -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/24/2008 4:50:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LexiTempest

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne

....plenty of older guys fall madly in love with Thai ladies and never come home....



More like ....plenty of older guys fall madly in love with taking advantage of young Thai ladies and tolerated prostitution and never come home....




Lexi, you are only 22.  You probably have not travelled the world much yet

Do you realise that prostitution is legal in every single developed western OECD nation except the US (other than parts of Nevada)?  Prostitution is legal in Canada, Australia, Europe, the UK and most of Asia.

Sex workers are law abiding, tax paying women providing valuable services to the community.  They enjoy the protection of the law.  They do not need pimps and are not exposed to blackmail and organised crime.

The only "backward" country that "tolerates" - but refuses to decriminalise - prostitution is your country.  This institutional prejudice against sex workers - and their clients - is very hard to understand existing in  what claims to be a proudly secular society with freedom of - and from - religion.




BoiJen -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/24/2008 5:49:51 PM)

hey...I'm 22 too and good ole red blooded red neck American who hasn't been outside of the US and I choose to educate myself...we don't all fit into the neat box of tight assed conservative. lol

;)

boiJen




LadyPact -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/24/2008 6:35:13 PM)

MsC,

We might have freedom from religion.  This has nothing to do with freedom from morals.




BoiJen -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/24/2008 7:03:35 PM)

Lady Pact much respect, you know that... AND your morals (and anyone elses') don't belong in anyone elses' bedrooms when it comes to consenting adults. No matter what country you're in or what your business arrangement is.

Pagans celebrate sexuality in all it's many manifestations and the Anglican and Catholic chruches have been known to support and even encourage prostitution...

Shakespeare's Hamlet makes a direct reference to this when Hamlete says "Get thee to a Nunnery" to Ophelia (act 3 scene 1 line 19 -I think) because in England, for a while during the same time frame, country whore houses where called "nunneries" and whores called "sisters."

boiJen




OneMoreWaste -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/24/2008 8:25:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
I don't get why on the outside some people think that Pro Dommes get paid to do explicitly what their clients want them to do. That just blows my mind.



Well, aside from government and medicine, most other professionals do get paid on that principle... In this case he's getting the government-subject treatment- money goes out, misery comes in. However, in this case there's no monopoly, so he needs to look at it from the doctor-patient perspective, and start comparison shopping before his money runs out. 




rob425 -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/24/2008 10:16:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Wow!  This is one heck of a thread.  It has gotten a bit long, but I wanted to thank those who took the time to post in it.  I've been rather interested.

I'm not going to quote anyone here, but I think some of the folks have nailed it.  I'd like to echo some of the things that have been said.  Please keep in mind, these comments from Me come from someone who is *just* a lifestyle Domme.  I am not now, nor have I ever been a professional.  My lack of knowledge for the field might color My views.

MaleSlaveAnon, it would seem to Me that if you are paying a professional, what you have is a business arrangement.  In other words, you pay, she Dominates.  A relationship is something else entirely.  Ask yourself an important question.  If you weren't paying, would she have any interest in you whatsoever?  That is not meant to be a snide remark.  I am phrasing it that way because you seem to be a bit confused about the two.  I think this is a huge mistake on your part in your approach. 

Let Me take this a step further.  A professional dominant can be viewed much like any other type of profession.  Just like a doctor, a lawyer, or a hairdresser, they get paid to provide a service.  Like any other profession, there are good ones and there are not so good ones.  Some are better at what they do than others.  Not everyone can be the best in their chosen field. Some actually give a damn about their clients, and others don't.  I should tell you, I have a particular disdain for the latter.  Your post here screams of the latter.

Even as *just* a lifestyle Domme, I know a thing or two about negotiation.  I think this was sorely lacking on both of your parts.  You did not approach this with what you expected for your money.  In turn, she did not list what she would provide for the payment received.  You did get to stay in her house and you did get to attend the club with her, so not all of your money was ill used.  Why there wasn't at least a good scene at the club, rather than her place as it might not be equipped, I can't say I understand.   I would have thought that would be a part of your business arrangement.  Were you not paying for play?

In undergroundsea's last comment to you, he mentioned strengthening your negotiation skills, and I would firmly agree.  Do what you need to do to get what you pay for.  I can't imagine anyone ever paying Me over a thousand dollars without getting some kind of return on the investment.  I am hoping you will contact him off of the boards for his help in bolstering your skills in this area.  It will help you to prevent yourself from falling for this kind of trap again.

Though My dear elan offered you advice mixed with tough love, I think you should listen to him.  He's not that far off of the mark, and you should hear his words.  He has a bit of wisdom in what he's said.

Please take your hopes out of all of this and look at it from a business standpoint.  Did you get what you expected from your cash investment?


[sm=agree.gif]




LadyPact -> RE: Confused, in too fast with ProDomme? (9/25/2008 5:30:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Lady Pact much respect, you know that... AND your morals (and anyone elses') don't belong in anyone elses' bedrooms when it comes to consenting adults. No matter what country you're in or what your business arrangement is.

Pagans celebrate sexuality in all it's many manifestations and the Anglican and Catholic chruches have been known to support and even encourage prostitution...

Shakespeare's Hamlet makes a direct reference to this when Hamlete says "Get thee to a Nunnery" to Ophelia (act 3 scene 1 line 19 -I think) because in England, for a while during the same time frame, country whore houses where called "nunneries" and whores called "sisters."

boiJen

Hello jen.  It's so good to see you back.  Please give My regards to Ms K.

This is one debate we will never agree on.  While obviously well versed in the social climate of other cultures, you fail to see it here.  I do not see it changing anytime soon.  Do you?  Whether this is sad commentary or not is besides the point.  It is what it is in the here and now. 

Until we here change as a society, the supposed moral ground will stand.  It's been held for several hundred years and will not vanish anytime soon. There is so much learning to be had, just as I learned from you and Ms K.  However, you must remember that such learning can not be had from those who close their eyes.  On this particular subject, the eyes of many are shut. 

Whether pro domination, or prostitution, or any other type of worker in the sex industry will ever be legal is yet to be known.  The law could change tomorrow, but it would still never be for Me.  I think that is something that we all should come to accept.  That we see it differently from person to person.  Situation to situation.  While I know it's not for Me, I do understand that it is for others.

No, I have no place in anyone's bedroom, nor do they have a place in Mine.  Many of My own judgments could be questioned.  Who's couldn't?  Still, when something is brought here for discussion and debate, we do what we can from our own perspectives.  What other platform could I have, other than My own?

BTW, though it is far from topic, I'll be more than happy to discuss Shakespeare.  It has always been My thought that when Ophelia was told to take herself to a nunnery, it was due to the fact that Hamlet had already used her body, being betrothed.  Should he die before marriage, she had no other recourse than to give herself as a nun.  Many in that day and age who had sex before marriage did so.  His plea to her was the best he could do, foreseeing his own demise.  Remember, back then, sex before vows was despicable. 

Anyway, I still think the true theme of the thread was a lack in negotiation in the spirit of a business arrangement.  I hope the OP has seen this, as I hope do you.

I hope we shall see each other again soon.

ETA..... Shall we do Dickens next?




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