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Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 8:30:37 AM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline 		I caught several posts on this at the tail end of another thread, and thought that they deserved a thread of their very own (again). So... here it is.

I've heard over and over again from individuals on multiple forums and lists (most often from submissives, but perhaps that is just a measure of percentages of posts, since it seems that dominants post more rarely in many places that I've been) that someone has to -earn- respect before they will show any.

I have a completely different perspective on this. I believe that giving respect is -not- something we do for another person, it is something we do to show dignity in -ourselves-, and therefore, it behooves us to treat others with respect -until such time as they have proven themselves unworthy of respect- and at that time, we cease interacting with them at all, if possible, or interact the absolute minimum that work or social obligations require.

Many people have said that their lack of respect is a form of self-expression, and that they should be allowed to interact with others any way that they choose. I agree with this wholeheartedly. Every one of us should have the opportunity to express ourselves in the way that we see fit. Don't be surprised, though, if the same people that you've treated with lack of respect just because you don't "owe" anyone respect if you don't want to give it don't want to be around you, or spend time with you, and even treat you with a mirror of the disrespect you have shown them.

Being rude to make a point often has the result of getting people so angry at the tone that they fail to hear the point at all. In respecting the dignity of others, we respect ourselves -and- give ourselves the opportunity to have the things that are truly important to us be heard without being clouded by anger over presentation.

Manners and respect are not just "frills". They are an essential friction reducer in human interaction, in the same way that oil is not a frill in an engine, but a requirement so that the engine does not destroy itself by beating its parts against one another until both explode.

Let the discourse begin.

Lady Zephyr
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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 8:38:38 AM   
Sartoris32801


Posts: 172
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		Wi
quote:

Let the discourse begin.


With all due respect I agree!

Sartoris

_____________________________

Oh, the shark, babe, has such teeth, dear
And it shows them pearly white
Just a jackknife has old MacHeath, babe
And he keeps it … ah … out of sight.

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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 8:54:57 AM   
LilWhiteWolf


Posts: 58
Joined: 11/10/2005
Status: offline 		i for one always try to treat everyone with respect. i do that whether i am online or offline. the problem that i encounter is the lack of respect that is returned to me. now this doesn't happen all the time but it has happened enough times that i find i tend to be on guard too much of the time. i guess that goes with the territory though...being on the internet. so many people hide behind their computer monitors and live out a fantasy world that they are afraid to experience in their real life. what they fail to realize though is that there are some very real people here that do not want to be part of their fantasies....people who are honest in their search for a real time partner.
the way i handle it now is i reply to email with courtesy and manners and if i receive a return email that i find offensive, then they are blocked. i refuse to waste my time dealing with the mindless, uneducated predators that haunt the net.

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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 9:09:57 AM   
Phoenxx


Posts: 253
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Swift Current
Status: offline 		Define rudeness. Define lack of respect.

Until we all understand that these are vague terms and vary from person to person and place-to-place we can debate this over and over. And will. What is custom in one place is insult in another. Calling me Sir at a military function, as I have no military rank is an insult to those that have them. Kneeling at my feet and kissing my hand in a church is going to get you looks. Doing either in a dungeon is perfectly normal.

Manners vary from place-to-place and by situation to situation. There is NO ONE right way. Nor will there ever be. Not as long as humans are as contrary and mean as we are. And without that, I think the cats would be the dominant species.

The way we are using respect here means to be held in high regard. Would you rather be held in high regard because you have the word Lady or Sir in front of your nickname, or because of WHO YOU ARE? Personally, I would rather earn respect, then have lip service paid to me because I have a Capital Letter at the start of my name, or because I claim I am a Top.

Yes, manners serve to help human interaction run smooth. But if someone from the Middle East comes in and by their traditions treats you as a female with the manners they were raised with, is that fair to you? Or if someone trained in the Asian forms? What are good manners here is not good manners there. They would have to conform to the proper forms for this forum. But if you go there…

Emily Post said ““Manners are a sensitive awareness of the feelings of others. If you have that awareness, you have good manners, no matter what fork you use.” And if you do you never will. To me trying to force your ideas and ideals on others is a lack of awareness. Understanding that others have different modes of address and respecting that is good manners.

Yes again, manners help smooth the friction between people. But getting upset (and I’m not saying this is what the OP is doing) because you are not paid the respect owed you by the world is a bit too much like these people who think the world owes them something. You are given the chance to earn whatever you want. It is not owed to you. If you want respect go earn it. If you want good manners show them first. I have found that if I smile as I pass someone, they mostly smile back. If not, I smile at someone else and ignore the ones that don’t. Works for manners too.
Tony





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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 9:26:06 AM   
obis


Posts: 412
Joined: 9/9/2005
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I would differentiate between respect and politeness. You're discussing the two as if there were the same thing, but I think nothing could be further from the truth. I try to be polite and kind to every person I meet, but I do see respect as something that has to be earned.

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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 9:30:37 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		If someone says that I have to prove to them that I am worthy of respect, they can move on. I do think that I have to show that I am worthy of their submission.

F

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[page 23 girl]



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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 9:34:05 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obis

I would differentiate between respect and politeness. You're discussing the two as if there were the same thing, but I think nothing could be further from the truth. I try to be polite and kind to every person I meet, but I do see respect as something that has to be earned.


I agree. I try to treat everyone with politeness. In fact, the angrier I get at idiots, the more polite I tend to behave.

Respect is something I'll reserve for a few.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 9:47:43 AM   
veronicaofML


Posts: 1317
Joined: 11/19/2005
From: from iowa..now in wisconsin
Status: offline 		Phoenxx
==========
THIS.........."I" agree with. there is NO standard of definitions.
just because Mistress finds something rude...and W/we HAVE argued over it....
does NOT make it rude where "I" come from.
She is white collar.......
i am blue collar AND a street kid from way back.
Her and i do NOT agree.......



< Message edited by veronicaofML -- 12/1/2005 9:48:17 AM >

_____________________________

drugs sex and rock n roll,...drugs are good and so is the rock n roll, sex is over rated"
=============
"go straight to hell, do not pass go and do not collect $200"



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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 10:41:07 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I believe that Respect and Dignity, like Honour and Integrety together with Self-expression are intangibles which defy anything but a cursory defining. It is up to each of us to define them for ourselves and then (hopefully) live by them and apply them to others.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 11:02:07 AM   
Kindred2Evil


Posts: 227
Joined: 4/16/2005
Status: offline 		I was always taught to get you have to give. I will offer respect and courtesy to everyone until they show they aren't worth it. In other words, if you lie or cheat or are a general ass you can hang it up.
I live in the South where people are taught from birth to use "Ma'am and Sir" as forms of respect. It's always offered up. In return, I expect them to offer the same.
Even if you aren't taught it, you can learn. A simple smile, holding open a door, offering your chair, any number of little things can show respect.
The tone of your voice, (general you by the way), your posture, the look on your face. Even if one mouths the words, most can read the intent behind them. Funny how a person can say something like "Thank you or yes Ma'am" and make it sound like "Screw you and bugger off".

_____________________________

Her touch is on the breeze that brushes your cheek, Her voice rides the thunder as the storm breaks, Her tears will clean your heartache when the rains come, Her sun will light the darkest times when you feel alone...She is the Goddess.

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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 1:49:07 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing


I have a completely different perspective on this. I believe that giving respect is -not- something we do for another person, it is something we do to show dignity in -ourselves-, and therefore, it behooves us to treat others with respect -until such time as they have proven themselves unworthy of respect- and at that time, we cease interacting with them at all, if possible, or interact the absolute minimum that work or social obligations require.

Lady Zephyr



Cheaply given is Cheaply Valued.....

I do not give Respect unless it as been earned. Behaviors that demonstrate and reflect Admirable Character traits is how one can earn my respect, it is not because someone shares my opinions or ideals. These admirable Character Traits to me are a reflection of the virtuous ideals of Wisdom,Courage, Humanity, Justice and/or Transcendence. Only a person that can actively demonstrate these virtuous qualities by their behaviors over a significant period of time will earn my respect.

Now... as person that has self-respect... it behooves me to treat others with good manners and polite behaviors until such time as they have proven themselves of unworthy of such manners. In such cases... I will not neccessarily be rude... but I will close the door to interaction until the behaviors change.

The key is that behaviors are subjective.... what i consider to be polite behaviors another my consider it respect or vice vrs. This also could be considered in the context of rude behaviors... ones good manners is anothers rude behavior or vice vrs. However, there is some common ground.... but it is actually a small piece of earth that is common.




< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 12/1/2005 1:51:00 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 3:28:12 PM   
sunshine333


Posts: 203
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline 		Lady Zephyr ... i read your post ... then reread it and substituted the word "compassion" for "respect." ... grins ... it made for much lighter reading.

i believe in treating others as we wish to be treated. i believe we are all innately "good" and deserving of respect and compassion because of this alone. this bare minimum of respect can be shown by simple human kindness. it is giving others the benefit of the doubt. i believe in people's ability to rise to the occassion ... so if we give them the opportunity to be respect-worthy assuming they are such ... then they will (based on my own life experience) be that which we invited them to be.

on the contrary, if we immediately put someone on the defensive ... they will most likely act accordingly.

i also think that beyond that basic level of respect ... there are more "earned" levels. and we can show our highest respects to others in the form of using honorific titles such as Master/Mistress, Lord, your Holiness, your Honor, Father, Mr.Mrs. So&So ... just to name a few. we can bow, lower our head, prostrate to or simply open a door for someone we respect. the very least we can do is to treat others with kindess, fairness and dignity ... at least until they've proven to be totally unworthy of that.

humbly,
sunshine

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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 3:33:41 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		I can see and appreciate this point of view. A others have said, I make a distinction between showing respect and being courteous or polite. I will be courteous and polite to all until they have shown they do not deserve this. I will show respect when it has been earned.

It is also important to understand what you mean by “showing respect”. Many times when people refer to certain behaviors as showing respect, for me it is just being polite and has nothing to do with my respect for the individual. For instance, not being rude to someone is not what I consider as showing respect, it’s just good manners. Manners and respect for me are not synonymous.

In a lifestyle setting, showing respect for me would be calling someone Sir or Ma’am. As a note, these are the forms of address that I have been instructed to use by my Lord and Master/Mistress is not a form of address that I am allowed to use for others.

In most everyday situations, the less I respect someone, the more exacting I become in being courteous and polite. The greater my respect for the person, the more I tease, joke and in general become more relaxed around them. However, in a more formal setting, be it a lifestyle occasion or not, you could not judge my respect for a person using this guide.

It is also important to understand the situation as well. A doctor or police officer deserves respect for the position of authority they hold in their chosen profession. I will address them by the appropriate title because they have gone through the schooling or training required. However, my respect will not extend to a personal level until they have shown they deserve it on that level.

In a lifestyle context, there is no degree or group that bestows the title of Dominant on someone. Anyone can walk into a club, party or munch and state, “I am Dominant”. It is only their actions over a period of time that will reflect whether they actually are or not. I will be polite to them until that time that their actions show that they deserve the title of Sir/Ma’am from me. This has to be done in direct interaction over a significant period of time and the only person who can alter this is my Lord. If someone has earned my Lord’s respect, then it doesn’t matter if they ever earn mine, they will be addressed appropriately.

So the apparent differences in our approach could just be a matter of semantics, what you are classifying as respect, I see as just being polite. If so, then I agree that you should be polite to all until they have given you a reason to not be polite. I can be very polite and courteous and never call someone by a title.


Knight's kyra

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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 3:33:49 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Although it may saound strange, I know people who have, and treat others with Respect, dignity, good manners and honourably yet there isn't an ounce of compassion in them. Conversly I also know people who are the most disrespectfull and at times thoughtless (both unknowingly) and yet are some of the most compassionate people about (I'd say they are ruled by their hearts and not their heads).

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 3:50:55 PM   
sunshine333


Posts: 203
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline 		hmm

good point, Iron Bear.

humbly,
sunshine

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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 4:46:38 PM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

the angrier I get at idiots, the more polite I tend to behave.


Uh oh. Now I will always treat John's politeness towards me with the upmost suspicion!

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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 5:23:03 PM   
veronicaofML


Posts: 1317
Joined: 11/19/2005
From: from iowa..now in wisconsin
Status: offline
Yes again, manners help smooth the friction between people. But getting upset (and I’m not saying this is what the OP is doing) because you are not paid the respect owed you by the world is a bit too much like these people who think the world owes them something. You are given the chance to earn whatever you want. It is not owed to you. If you want respect go earn it. If you want good manners show them first. I have found that if I smile as I pass someone, they mostly smile back. If not, I smile at someone else and ignore the ones that don’t. Works for manners too.
Tony
==========

okay
into the respect thing a bit...
yeah i know. everyone is different. and yessssssss.........Mistress has said "I" SHOULD change some of my ideas........(grrrrrrr)
but MY morals are NOT Hers.....vice versa.
now before i am accused of it...i am not just-holding-out on Her...to be stubborn...intentionally.
it just looks like it to Her.

MY ideas aren't from down south...or any where in particular...unless ya count the fact it is how my clan is?????
it's just that..."I" was raised one way and Ms another. W/we just don't see eye to eye.
so yes we clash a lot....
i just feel that unless you earn my respect --you won't get it.
i don't care where ya say you are from or whom ya think your daddy was.....i don't care!

i have 2 basic rules...to this. talk to me civilized.....i'll talk back to ya.
growl at me.......you n i can go outside..unless you are a coward and i have no issue with rumbling inside....
(using the collective you and we)
otherwise? 3 rules i live by.
dont lie to me
don't steal from me
and don't stab me in the back.

you are either friend or foe..i'll give ya 30 seconds to choose.......
after that "I" decide........and it may not.......be...........what you like.

take care.....




_____________________________

drugs sex and rock n roll,...drugs are good and so is the rock n roll, sex is over rated"
=============
"go straight to hell, do not pass go and do not collect $200"



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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 6:00:45 PM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshine333

Lady Zephyr ... i read your post ... then reread it and substituted the word "compassion" for "respect." ... grins ... it made for much lighter reading.

humbly,
sunshine


Sunshine333,

Yes, perhaps compassion is a better choice. It is more, for me, than being "polite", so polite won't fit what I'm trying to explain. It is more a recognition of the inherent humanity of another person, and willingness to truly -hear- them, and to honor their humanity whether or not, once I've truly heard them, I agree with what they say.

I'll have to consider this. I've always used "respect" for this behavior, but I am also a stickler for saying what I mean... so I will think on this, to see if this is truly what I mean to say when I say 'respect'.

Thank you,
Lady Zephyr

< Message edited by LadiesBladewing -- 12/1/2005 6:03:25 PM >

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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 6:02:45 PM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Although it may saound strange, I know people who have, and treat others with Respect, dignity, good manners and honourably yet there isn't an ounce of compassion in them. Conversly I also know people who are the most disrespectfull and at times thoughtless (both unknowingly) and yet are some of the most compassionate people about (I'd say they are ruled by their hearts and not their heads).


Ah, the slipperiness of language. Perhaps I will never find the "right" word to express what I am trying to say here, it will get tangled in the semantics web, and the message will be lost. Ah well, life happens. *smiles*

Lady Zephyr

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RE: Respect, dignity and self-expression... - 12/1/2005 7:42:20 PM   
Tigersprincess


Posts: 8
Joined: 11/9/2005
Status: offline 		I think that a person is and acts how they truly are.

Someone that has self dignity, Respecting themselves, will exude that level of respect in some way regardless if they come on strong and agressive or soft spoken and more laid back or to the opposite extreme their every response to daily interactions exude definite demeanor of submissive type personality.

I dont think it matters if a person is Dominate in nature or not, Someone that respects not only themselves but others around them and has the ability to exhibate self control on a emotional level as well as temper level... that person is going to tend to be given respect by who ever they interact with naturally. Just as a person that exhibats in your face arrogance, rudeness, no self control, and such is going to be given a brush off either to their face or just being ignored or such.

I sure can be commanded to be respectful... my demeanor is such that I am told by many I seem to reflect such respect to all others around me... but being respectful to someone... isn't the same as respecting someone...

-laughs softly-... guess a tangent of this thread would be "is showing respect to another a sure sign that one is respected or just curtesy"

thats it... ugh.. sorry... second post I rambled on ... I apologize for being long winded

princess
Tigers lil girl

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)
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