Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (Full Version)

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bipolarber -> Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 7:51:43 AM)

It'll only be available in Europe. Why? Because the ECOnetic, a five passenger, sporty hybrid, which will cost less than the Toyota Prius, runs on diesel for the tiny motor that runs the secondary electric generator. Americans, apparently, have an aversion to the fuel, so, the car will not be availble in the US. (This, even though the fuel is now cleaner than most gasoline engines, and 30% more efficient.) This perception of the US population being anti-diesel "sheeple" hasn't stopped the japanese auto makers from adopting the design, and they will be flooding the vast US market with their versions within the next few years.

Again, a US auto maker shoots itself in the foot.




popeye1250 -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 10:13:40 AM)

We're "anti-diesel?"
When did this happen?
I haven't noticed any protests or anything like that.




NuminousLeader -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 10:26:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

We're "anti-diesel?"
When did this happen?
I haven't noticed any protests or anything like that.



I believe the news was mis-qouted

The USA is anti-Vin Diesel




bipolarber -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 10:43:38 AM)

Pop. this is what the Ford "market research group" seems to have concluded. "Hockey and soccer Moms" in flyover country apperantly don't like the smelly fuel.

This car would have been a major step forward to establishing the market for the newer "clean diesels" that are now emerging to the market. But, like the CA elevtric car, and the overpriced Chevy Volt, "detroit" seems to be unable to comprehend that the US is desperately hungry for something fuel efficient, and eco friendly. It's really too bad. At 65mpg diesel... 650 miles per tank... that means you could have driven coast to coast for about the same amount of money that your Dad did back in the 1950's. (adjusted for inflation)





popeye1250 -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 10:53:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuminousLeader

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

We're "anti-diesel?"
When did this happen?
I haven't noticed any protests or anything like that.



I believe the news was mis-qouted

The USA is anti-Vin Diesel


Yeah, that must be it.
What's a Vin Diesel?




faerytattoodgirl -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 10:55:42 AM)

quote:

What's a Vin Diesel?


he was a crappy wrestler...very short stay in wwe...and is  now a crappy actor...same with stone cold steve austin, and the rock...all ex wwe gone actors...






bipolarber -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 11:05:53 AM)

And "Rowdy" Roddy Piper.... (John Carpenter's "They Live")




TieNTeas -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 12:20:33 PM)

Emissions regulations have kept diesel cars off the market in California and New England for several years.  But, with cleaner diesel fuel, they are just able to start selling them again.

FWIW, I've read this car would be slightly more expensive than the Prius because of the current exchange rates.




pahunkboy -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 12:26:20 PM)

I wish I could move from the busy street.  Diesel DOES stink more the gas.

Aside from that- isnt it 'convenient"

did you know a 25 billion $ low interest loan was giving to the automakers?   they want 50 billion tho-




Vendaval -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 12:52:32 PM)

Do you have a link for that?  I would like to read the rest of the story in more detail.  Thanks.




outlier -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 1:19:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Do you have a link for that?  I would like to read the rest of the story in more detail.  Thanks.


Vendaval,

If you enter the name "Ford ECOnetic" in Google
you will get this page of links: articles, photos. etc.

Outlier




MrRodgers -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 1:31:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

We're "anti-diesel?"
When did this happen?
I haven't noticed any protests or anything like that.

My old man had 2 Mercedes diesels for over 20 years and finally said enough of this filthy, smelly shit. It costs me more than gas because the truckers buy it and can deduct the taxes. (I wouldn't know for sure)

Seems many here in America...have had their fill of it even though its exclusive use would bring down all fuels as it is more efficient and in fact cleaner. (less unburnt hydrocarbons) PLUS, there are far too few pumps.




shyhuzzy -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 1:32:47 PM)

Hump,  it it does not have a diesel engine, I won't consider buying it.




MrRodgers -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 1:59:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Do you have a link for that?  I would like to read the rest of the story in more detail.  Thanks.

It's all over the TV news and papers. They are already partying on a ton of OUR cash and hell...having such a great time...wishing we were there. It feels so good...they want $25 Billion more so they can party on.

Don't you just love this thing called 'free market' capitalism. (sic)

WE should have told them...fine, and we'll take GMAC, all of their other subsidairy businesses except parts which inspite of them all being a total ripoff, couldn't make a profit and offers up along with this episode...another glarying example of what has become a unique I think American, corporate incompetence.





TieNTeas -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 2:29:35 PM)

AFAIK, the $25B is to fund a 2007 bill (that already passed, but wasn't funded) to encourage auto manufacturers to convert 20 year old plants to more efficient ones.




MrRodgers -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 3:30:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TieNTeas

AFAIK, the $25B is to fund a 2007 bill (that already passed, but wasn't funded) to encourage auto manufacturers to convert 20 year old plants to more efficient ones.

These are federal (taxpayer) loan guarantee(s) the first of which is only now hitting their accounts. The 'entitlement' is for another $25 Billion already in the pipeline with nary a contrary voice on capitol hill. Why am I not surprised ?

They are presumably designed to do a whole lot more than encourage development. They are to use this to completely retool and get 'modernized' ostensibly for new fuel power. Should even a fucking penny of this go to executives or they declare a stock dividend then these principles involved (although money is fungible)...should go to jail.

Of course...what are we talking about here ? This is the 'big' three...part of the great American corporate culture. There are those in the industry that will tell you that unless each comes up with at least 2 new great sellers and maybe a 3rd...any of them could be living on borrowed time. Soon then, if that's correct...they will all be living on OUR borrowed money.




Vendaval -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 4:15:53 PM)

Thank you, outlier.  I attempt to reference back to the original story from the OP so that in the discussion, we are literally on the same page.  [;)]




shallowdeep -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/22/2008 11:00:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval
I attempt to reference back to the original story from the OP so that in the discussion, we are literally on the same page.

I would guess the OP's inspiration was this piece in BusinessWeek, although probably only indirectly through one of the many sites that have picked it up.

The original post has some factual errors. The Fiesta ECOnetic is not a hybrid and, at 0-100 kph (62.1 mph) in 12.3 seconds, calling it sporty is generous. Ford's own press cites a $26,600 price tag and the BusinessWeek article claims the hypothetical US cost would be $25,700. The Prius has a $22,000 MSRP.

Diesel engine's don't need to worry about autoignition during compression, so they can more than overcome an actually inferior thermodynamic cycle with higher compression ratios. The claim of 30% improved thermal efficiency is in the right ballpark, if a little high, but the claim that they are cleaner than most gasoline engines is false. Modern diesels bear little resemblance in terms of emissions to those of decades past, and they can even best older gasoline engines, but they don't compete with modern gasoline engine designs on emissions. The Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec, one of only two diesel cars meeting California emissions requirements, goes to some lengths to be "clean," even utilizing a high maintenance system to inject urea into the exhaust to reduce emissions. Even so, it still only manages a Federal emission certification placing it in Bin 8, the highest allowed in California. That's well below average and allows emissions of NOx and other smog causing gases more than ten times greater than those allowed from so-called partial zero-emissions vehicles like the Prius.

I can't find a link at the moment, but I'm pretty sure I read that the Fiesta ECOnetic did not meet even those minimal California Air Resource Board requirements. Selling a car domestically without access to the markets in California and other states, like New York, that have adopted California's standards makes it much harder to turn a nice profit and, with the given prices and specs, I think Ford is actually right - it wouldn't do that well here.

In urban areas and other regions affected by smog, diesels are a big step back, not forward - at least from an environmental standpoint. I would love to see more cars in the US adopting aspects of the Fiesta ECOnetic - including a smaller and lighter vehicle, smaller engine, and low drag coefficients but, as far as I'm concerned, Europe can keep the "clean" diesels. Gasoline-electric hybrids generally offer a better solution.




meatcleaver -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/23/2008 1:15:47 AM)

When my brother bought a car and asked if added security against theft was necessary in the US, the salesman as a joke offered him a plastic diesel badge for $2 and told him there was no better security system around.




slaveboyforyou -> RE: Ford's 65mpg vehicle... but... (9/23/2008 1:36:38 AM)

Diesel passenger cars don't have a good reputation in this country, and you can blame Detroit for that.  I remember my father going out and buying an Oldsmobile with a diesel in 1983, when I was 8.  We kept it for less than 2 years before he traded it for something else.  It was a piece of shit.  It was loud, smelly, and unreliable.  He had it in the shop constantly.  A lot of piece of shit diesel cars came out then, because they were trying to emulate Mercedes success with diesels.  Of course those diesels were crap, and they quickly stopped that little experiment. 




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