Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (Full Version)

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LadyKim -> Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/1/2005 10:26:49 AM)

We claim that honor, respect, and trust are key components to a healthy bdsm M/s relationship; however, I wonder how many relationships really possess these qualities. I would love to hear from others on how they view the responsiblities of both roles.

A dominant to me should be someone that holds integrity, honor, and respect in high regard. They should strive to earn the trust and respect of the submissive they wish to have serve them. This means taking the time to get to know them and proving to the submissive that they really have the subs best interest at heart at all times even when it is 'inconvenient' to the Dominant. Part of shouldering the responsibility of control is to take care of what is yours. A dominant may enjoy something or want something, but it may be an activity that would break trust or emotionally/physically damage the submissive. The dominant should refrain in order to perserve his or her toy.

A submissive should be honest, honorable, respectful, and a person of integrity also. A person that strives to please and finds pleasure in serving their dominant and seeing to his or her needs and desires. A key component is giving over control because he or she has found the dominant to be someone they can trust.

You cannot have one without the other.

However, too often, I see the opposite. Dominants that are so messed up they believe it is all about what they want. They spend time getting one submissive to surrender control and become emotionally attatched, while secretly seeking others and doing the same thing to them. People who exaggerate their past histories and hide behind a wall of lies to capture someone's attention, then when they have it....... seek someone else to conquer. People that are selfish, lazy, and have no life outside of the one they create for themselves on the internet. They have move one woman after another into their home while continuing their quest in the belief that 'he/she with the most subs wins'.

All too often submissives believe that they must surrender to whomever claim the title Dom. They find themselves drawn to confidence and the control. They fall head over heels and once they start to see the short comings of the dominant they have come to the point of desperately wishing to serve...... begin making excuses for the lack of honor, integrity, respect, and trustworthiness that Dom demonstrates. Choosing to wish to believe the web of words rather than the actions they are shown.

These behaviors go against truly building honor, respect, and trust. I understand that the goal is to achieve those things; however, they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. When one dominant has someone in one state he/she chats with, then chats with another in another state, and plays with another that lives close by..... moving that one in and keeping the others on a string, he/she is not being honest with any of them. Lining up one sub to come in at one part of the week, then another to come in the other portion and keeping them both in the dark. He/she is not someone that deserves respect, trust, or to be honored.

And it is not just the dominants, but submissives that do the exact same thing. Claiming to wish to serve while secretly seeking to find others because they are too confused to open their mouths to tell a dominant what is lacking in the relationship for them.

What has happened to truly wishing to control and grow together in a relationship? What has happened to truth, and building relationships that grow and prosper?

While this entry began as a rant against a dominant that has hurt a very dear friend of mine by deceiving her for over a year with promises and playing the 'most subs wins' game, I realized as I wrote it....... that piece of scum that hurt my friend is not the exception anymore, but has become the rule in our lifestyle. It is so sad when a person that lives a fantasy life in Tucson, Portland, Minneapolis, Atlanta, or Catmanddu seeks women from thousands of miles away pitting subbies from Oregon, New York, North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas against each other to feed their ego while claiming to just be..... messed up .... believing that excuses their actions because they are Dom. For that to have become the norm does not bode well for our lifestyle.

I find myself wondering how so many people miss the fact that the person that really wins in the one that builds the relationship that completes body, mind, heart and soul, rather than the one that leaves you searching for more and more to fill a void.



Prunesquallor -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/1/2005 10:36:31 AM)

Well, I believe that your criteria for Dominants and submissives at the beginning of your posting is the very minimal requirement, and that those qualities should be a given before you even start to express an interest in someone. I certainly wouldn't want a submissive unless she had those qualities, and I wouldn't expect her to be interested in me if she thought I didn't have them.

I think that Dominants and submissives who throw themselves at the first person who comes along do themselves a disservice, and do not have anybody but themselves to blame when things go wrong. Not to say I haven't made a mistake in the past, but at least that submissive was very good at *pretending* she was somebody other than what she was.

But really, those criteria should be a minimal requirement for anybody looking for any kind of relationship, BDSM or vanilla, IMO.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/1/2005 10:39:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyKim
What has happened to truly wishing to control and grow together in a relationship? What has happened to truth, and building relationships that grow and prosper?

Nothing. The people who do it still do. The people who don't still don't.

quote:

For that to have become the norm does not bode well for our lifestyle.

I find myself wondering how so many people miss the fact that the person that really wins in the one that builds the relationship that completes body, mind, heart and soul, rather than the one that leaves you searching for more and more to fill a void.

Nothing you said here is for only M/s relationships. Everything you said is necessary to, and occurs in, every single personal relationship out there. The good and the bad.

I COULD turn around and say that this friend consented to be with thie other dom. Where's the line where it goes from "she should have known better and used better judgement" to "he's a dork and hurt her badly"?

People will do what they do.



slavejali -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/1/2005 1:32:56 PM)

i think its a people and an education problem. Some people just arent taught about what the stuff of integrity and honor and respect is made of. Some people make their own ideas up to justify their own actions so they can live with themselves. Some people know what it is and just dont have the strength of mind to carry it into their lives or to even care about it.



MasterRobert1 -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/1/2005 2:10:57 PM)

There's a lot in what you say. One thing to remember: this behavior you describe as being dishonrable (keeping people on a string, et cetera), it isn't confined to Doms. I have seen subs do the exact same thing. But, integrity, honor, respect; these things should be held in high esteem. And we should use them as criteria is choosing partner, whether temporarily or permanently.



pmyshkinp -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/1/2005 2:24:25 PM)

I this type of thing probably has a lot to do with insecurities on both sides, Dom and sub. A Dom that plays that game probably is in actuality very insecure about themselves, their body, their social position, whatever, and think that if they can "control" enough people it'll make them feel better. It's really not a whole lot different from the fat kid that kicked my ass in 3rd grade...

The sub side is probably a little more complex, and I think a lot of people assume that subs just simply have to have low self-esteems or overriding insecurities to be submissive, but I really think that's not the case (at least with me). I mean, to some extent, everyone has insecurities about something, that's normal and probably healthy, but it doesn't need to be overbearing. I know a few submissives that have a lot of insecure complexes, and while that drives them to a Dom, I think it usually ends up pairing them with another insecure, selfish person. But who knows, it's sort of sad if it ends up being a cycle like that - people should stop being jerks.

p



fldrkhorse -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/1/2005 3:13:38 PM)

WOW, very well articulated. Perhaps the best post I've read so far, of course with the understanding I've only been on CollarME a short time ;-)

Part of the problem you mention is so many are not ready to be in any type of relationship. One must have their head together and their feet on the ground to be able to lead another. One must know themselves, know what or atleast know what they're not looking for, and have the patience and faith to believe it will come. Faith does not come in a tight skirt or leather pants. Faith is that not seen.

I would just like to add regarding honor, respect, and trust, these are qualities one must have in themselves as a self foundation before they can have any type of relationship.



fastlane -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/1/2005 3:17:04 PM)

Two out of Three, isn't bad. Is it?

oh, you said Trust, I thought I read Lust.

One out of three isn't bad. Is it?



fyreredsub -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/1/2005 4:26:43 PM)

it unfortuneately boils down to for some, that it is all about the capture.
it is an imperfect world in which we live. your post leaves alot for people to think about no matter what their role is in this lifestyle.thank you.



IrishMist -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/1/2005 4:41:48 PM)

quote:

We claim that honor, respect, and trust are key components to a healthy bdsm M/s relationship; however, I wonder how many relationships really possess these qualities.


I would think, and hope, that these are the cornerstone in ANY relationship, BDSM or other.

quote:

A dominant to me should be someone that holds integrity, honor, and respect in high regard.


I believe that both the Dominant and the Submissive should adhere to these, not just one or the other.

quote:

All too often submissives believe that they must surrender to whomever claim the title Dom.


In my limited experience this is usually the case when one is brand new to the lifestyle, and still learning who and what he/she is.

quote:

What has happened to truly wishing to control and grow together in a relationship? What has happened to truth, and building relationships that grow and prosper?


As already stated, these still exist in relationships. Those who believe in these, live by them, and those who do not, will not.

quote:

that piece of scum that hurt my friend is not the exception anymore, but has become the rule in our lifestyle.


I disagree totally with this. They are NOT the rule, they are just part of the problem. I have met alot of people in this lifestyle, and 99% of them have been absolutly wonderful. I will admit, that I find myself very lucky to have not been on the receiving end of the 'bad' side yet, and I hope that I never am...it still holds that everyone is human, and we all make mistakes. Your friend believed in this person, and I feel deeply for her pain...but to say that such a person constitutes the whole, I have to disagree.



buffiyum -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/1/2005 5:18:22 PM)

Honour, Respect and Trust, and the greatest of these is.............
Honesty.

Without honesty, how can one know if the others qualities exist within another? Without time and interaction between two Ppeople, one cannot know if the Oother is honest. This also apply within Polyamourous relationships and to relationships outside of bdsm as well.
Honesty to buffy, is the cornerstone of any relationship. And honesty begins with ourselves.
one thank You LadyKim for beginning this forum subject. It is a subject dear to buffy's heart.
respectfully,
buffy



LordODiscipline -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/1/2005 5:26:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyKim
We claim that honor, respect, and trust are key components to a healthy bdsm M/s relationship; however, I wonder how many relationships really possess these qualities.

<snip>

I do not claim anything of the sort....

So - I am not sure who "we" are..;)

"We" are not all the same.... do not all have the same desires... "We" do not all have the same needs and, "we" do not all susbscribe to much of the "common knowledge" that is posted on the internet about "us" as 'wisdom'.

The things you talk about are nice... they are things every human being should aspire to... but, have no relevantly specific meaning when we are talking about BDSM/Ds/Gor/MOUSE.

Be a good human first... then be a good person.

~J



Sunshine119 -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/1/2005 5:44:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline


[
Be a good human first... then be a good person.

~J


Nothing more need be added to this.



LadyKim -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/1/2005 10:12:35 PM)

When I said 'we claim', it was a generalization that I agree does not apply to everyone.......... obviously. What separates BDSM SadoMasochism from the clinical definitions of the words Sadist and Masochist are the three little words of Safe Sane Consentual. Submissives 'trust' the dominant will not do permanent damage to them, and dominants 'trust' the submissive will not haul them up on assault and battery charges. Hopefully, people would not play with someone that they do not respect, trust, or believe to be honorable. Otherwise, they are asking to be hurt (no matter what side of the whip they are on).

In a portion of my diatribe, I made mention of how some submissives believe they have to do whatever anyone that claims the title of Dom says, and someone pointed out (correctly) that this is normally true of newbies. It is true that the longer someone is in the lifestyle, they learn what is and is not acceptable and become more discerning. The reason I used the newbie mentality is because it is the newbies I worry about. Those of us that have been in it a while should know the warning signs and pay heed to them, but the new people getting involved are still feeling their way through it. We all had to endure it, true....... and it is part of what guides the directions we take as we continue in the lifestyle. I do understand that. However, I also believe it is the responsiblity of the people that have been in it a while to help those just getting started. I also think it is the responsibility of those that know better to point out where short comings are.

I know I am not responsible for everyone else's actions, but my sense of honor, responsibility, and integrity push me to call a spade a spade..... and if the spade is in an idiot's hands get it out before he/she hurts someone.

We all participate in this lifestyle the way that works best for us. But there are some rules that apply no matter how you choose to engage in whatever activity. SAFE, SANE, and CONSENTUAL....... it must always be all three. (Otherwise, it's illegal! And a clinical definition of a psychiatric disorder!!) However, without honesty....... there is nothing safe, sane or truly consentual occuring because there is deception.




IrishMist -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/2/2005 4:58:53 AM)

quote:

I also believe it is the responsiblity of the people that have been in it a while to help those just getting started. I also think it is the responsibility of those that know better to point out where short comings are.


While I can understand this, and agree with it, to help someone, you must first be asked. I will admit that I soak up knowledge, not only from these boards, but from talking with others also. When I don't understand something, I voice it, hoping that the confusion may be taken away. Those who are willing to point out the shortcomings of others ( from personal experience ) should not be expected to unless first asked. At least, that is how I would approach it.



LadyKim -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/2/2005 5:26:55 AM)

IrishMist,

In a one on one situation, you are correct. However, the forums allow you to discuss general topics that can benefit a large number of people who may not have had the opportunity to ask or known their situation was not unique.

When I discussed my 'friend', I purposely did not name any names or give enough information on the parties involved to reveal their identity to the world at large. I also realize that if someone falls into the category of being so disrespectful, dishonest, untrustworthy, and lacking in integrity, then words on a forum will probably not mean anything to him or her. However, there are some genuinely nice people that may have a hint of what I discussed in their personalities that this might speak to and reach.

You are right that one can only help someone when they are open to being helped. This post is meant to help those that want it.

MzKim

P.S. I truly appreciate all that are posting on this thread. I always enjoy hearing others opinions and experiences.



IrishMist -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/2/2005 5:42:11 AM)

quote:

talking about BDSM/Ds/Gor/MOUSE.


I hate going off topic, lol, but ....what is MOUSE? I have never heard that before.



IrishMist -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/2/2005 5:44:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyKim

IrishMist,

In a one on one situation, you are correct. However, the forums allow you to discuss general topics that can benefit a large number of people who may not have had the opportunity to ask or known their situation was not unique.

When I discussed my 'friend', I purposely did not name any names or give enough information on the parties involved to reveal their identity to the world at large. I also realize that if someone falls into the category of being so disrespectful, dishonest, untrustworthy, and lacking in integrity, then words on a forum will probably not mean anything to him or her. However, there are some genuinely nice people that may have a hint of what I discussed in their personalities that this might speak to and reach.

You are right that one can only help someone when they are open to being helped. This post is meant to help those that want it.

MzKim

P.S. I truly appreciate all that are posting on this thread. I always enjoy hearing others opinions and experiences.


You are correct :) I concede the point.





plantlady64 -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/2/2005 5:51:13 AM)

Hello There,
I agree there is a lot of grand deceptions happening in and out of our lifestyle between men and women.
I think it's sad there are so many male and female cowards hiding behind lies instead of embracing their real self and finding someone who can accept what they are and be happy with that.
I don't agree that wanting to play with others while you're in a committed relationship is always bad though. I dearly am blessed to have a Master who allows me to have full contact with others.
I am a very nymph oriented lover.
My drive is so high I have spent my whole adult life aching to get laid all day every day.
I never cheated on a boyfriend or husband ever. It use to be a deal breaker in my past life to have either person have sex with someone outside my relationship.
I was also at the same time unlucky enough in love to only have two boyfriends that could even begin to fill the sexual needs in me my whole life.
I have not had an avenue open to me to be able to fulfill my desires enough to make me content. Running around unfulfilled-fulfilled the better part of 25 years really sucked.
Now I have I have a wonderful Master, Lover, and Friend, an open relationship, & found BDSM in my life. I am happier in my life now than I've ever been before. I am now in a relationship where if my Master permits it, I can have full contact friends.
Mind you I'm not just running around screwing the world or anything, but it's nice to know when I want to go play with some hot sexy Dom and get laid elsewhere it's not only OK but encouraged & expected. The problem is finding real male friends who can be a friend only and a lover to share this freedom with. I am lucky enough to have about 8 Dom Mentors helping my Master in my S&M training in our local dungeon, but unfortunately our dungeon does not usually incorporate sex in the open play events.
I find these Dom friends sharing their energy and playing with me an priceless gift as I just found myself this past February and want to really train in ways that I can discover who I am in this really phenomenal matrix of pain and pleasure we share.
My Master also has other friends he has relations and play time with. I like when he walks around the house all turned on and tingling after he gets off the phone, or comes back from playing with a friend. For us having permission and trust only strengthens our bond and commitment to one another and is an enrichment in our relationship.
This freedom has liberated me to the point I don't know if I'll ever desire to be fully monogamous again. I am indeed fluid monogamous to my Master & only he may penetrate my rectum as he's claimed that orifice for his own use only, but over all I am able to have other experiences and love that.
There are a large number of us who have high libido's and enjoy the thrill of a new partner who are brave enough to accept this in our self enough to find someone who'd permit you to play with others up front in our relationships. In this approach some still do get hurt, but like in my Master's house , it works well in others.
I also see those who feel trapped in dead relationships stay due to the fear of change and having the safety net pulled out from under them. Not only are they tortured by their needs, but also by their own actions. The sad part is in this process they don't see how they make their own jail around themselves. Often their self esteem, their lives, and their sense of self worth just sinks and mires in the muck at the bottom.
Not only isn't it really a safety net, but rather more like poison ivy vines that spread uncomfortableness to everyone who touches it leaving many raw in the end.
In a perfect world everyone would be honest about weather or not they have a need to have multiple partnered relationships or not.
If all the pretense about sex went away I think many more of us would treat having sex more like dancing with someone in an intimate state of mind rather than attaching ones heart firmly to their crotch.
I've seen many a good man and woman have their raging sexual needs ruin their lives. I pray for them all and those they hurt in their deceptions.
I am indeed sorry your friend recently was a victim of such a cowardly & selfish person. I think most of us can have true empathy for those hurt in these fashions.
Sincerely,
sub suzanne



Padriag -> RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity (12/2/2005 6:15:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyKim

We claim that honor, respect, and trust are key components to a healthy bdsm M/s relationship; however, I wonder how many relationships really possess these qualities. I would love to hear from others on how they view the responsiblities of both roles.

My guess would be probably somewhere between 50% to 55% since the divorce rate in the US currently is around 40% to 45% last time I checked. Just a guestimate. To those qualities, which I agree both dominants and submissives should possess I'd add sincerity, realism, honesty and ethics.

quote:

What has happened to truly wishing to control and grow together in a relationship? What has happened to truth, and building relationships that grow and prosper?

We're still around. Thing is the internet has allowed a flood of curious people, dabblers, liars, and assorted rabble to vicariously participate in this lifestyle, without ever really getting involved. There are a lot of people online looking for nothing but a fantasy. And there are even some who would like a real relationship but their only image of this lifestyle is based entirely on fantasy. It creates problems that aren't easy to solve, takes time and education with those that are willing to learn... the rest... nothing you can do but try to ignore them til they get bored and go away.

quote:

While this entry began as a rant against a dominant that has hurt a very dear friend of mine by deceiving her for over a year with promises and playing the 'most subs wins' game, I realized as I wrote it....... that piece of scum that hurt my friend is not the exception anymore, but has become the rule in our lifestyle. It is so sad when a person that lives a fantasy life in Tucson, Portland, Minneapolis, Atlanta, or Catmanddu seeks women from thousands of miles away pitting subbies from Oregon, New York, North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas against each other to feed their ego while claiming to just be..... messed up .... believing that excuses their actions because they are Dom. For that to have become the norm does not bode well for our lifestyle.

But are they really the norm, or just the majority online? Most of the people I've met who were really serious about this lifestyle offline were pretty decent people... not all, but most. Most of the ones I've met who turned out to be a waste of time were people just playing around online. There are always exceptions to that, but overall that's been my experience. BTW, its not just doms who play those games, subs play them too. I've had some that would tell me they were madly in love with me and so wanted to be mine... and were telling that to 6 other guys. Only thing I regret are the ones that didn't have web cams so I could see the look on their face when a couple of us guys got together and caught them at it. Hallmark moments I tellya.

quote:

I find myself wondering how so many people miss the fact that the person that really wins in the one that builds the relationship that completes body, mind, heart and soul, rather than the one that leaves you searching for more and more to fill a void.

Simple, cause they're pursuing a fantasy. Its like I said in another thread, these days it seems like being surrounded by dreamers who can't (or won't) wake up. But there are some good people out there, who want genuine and real relationships. You just have to look a little harder to find them, take things at a slower pace, realize trust is earned and that goes both ways (I run into a lot of submissives who seem stunned by the concept they need to earn my trust just as much as I need to earn theirs), and get to know folks before rushing into a relationship.



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