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unlearning behaviours - 8/2/2004 10:27:31 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Many have referred to the dynamics in BDSM as requiring learning and skill on the part of all parties involved whether they are topping, bottoming or participating at any level.

As an educator, I’m often faced with the ongoing question of how do we aid in unlearning behaviours. A recent thread in ask a Mistress got me thinking about unlearning behaviours. The issue was about Dommes and penetrations and my reflection was:
I've realised that most of the men who get uncomfortable with the idea of penetrating their Domme where not allowed to do it with another Domme they had a significant relationship with. Which brings me to the idea of unlearning behaviours...

I thought bringing that idea to the general forum and seeing in what other situations it’s applicable might be interesting.

So how do all of you go about unlearning behaviours or helping your partners (whether you are top, bottom or other) unlearn behaviours. Have you been faced with this? Or is it even a concern for you?

Oh yes… and because you all love definitions so much…
_______

By unlearning, I mean to undo the effect of having acquired a certain habit or certain knowledge.

By behaviour, I mean the way someone behaves, functions, operates. And yes, we Canadians as well as most in the Commonwealth write it behaviours ;)
_______


- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove
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RE: unlearning behaviours - 8/2/2004 11:12:18 AM   
FatherMichael


Posts: 19
Joined: 7/18/2004
Status: offline 		I really like this question....err quandry, depending on how you "hear" it asked.

the baggage a sub..or any lover...carries sometimes is significant. I have a vanilla playmate who is convinced I've known her since her days playing Janet in Rocky Horror...I've been in atlanta since '91, about a decade after she put away her bra and half-slip. (give me a break, I'm an old man now and time & history doesn't ever add up the same way twice anymore)

Unlearning the process begins simply, at the very roots of everything. Instead of a generic "yes Sir/Miss/etc/etc/" I have a sub answer "yes michael" it helps to soldify for them who it is they are with and some of the old stuff fades away with that simple change...then its all behavior mod, whatever works for the sub,which any dom should be able to determine early on.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: unlearning behaviours - 8/2/2004 11:29:13 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Negation is only a logical construct. It doesn't actually exist. If I tell you "don't think of the color blue" you can't even parse the sentence without doing what I just told you not to do. I don't want to turn this into a dissertation on linguistics. Suffice it to say that you can't really un-teach a behavior, or in the case that you are talking about, an emotional response to some situation. Your submissive feels reluctance when you tell him to fuck you, because to him that behavior means something other than what you, his Domme, intend for it to mean. Whose definition wins? Ritual can be your friend here. Try this:

Introduce a little extra ritual when you command him to do something. Instead of just telling him to do something and having him do it right away, introduce the protocol of giving him the command, having him acknoledge the command, and then touching his shoulder or face and saying "please me now".

Start with things that you know he'll do entusiastically. Reward him well when he complies. Every time you do it, you are anchoring the positive desre to please you. After a while, if you say "when I turn around and lean over this chair, you are to fuck me. hard....... please me now. You are using the anchor as leverage to keep his focus on pleasing you, instead of going internal and thinking about why he'd rather not. It's a powerful technique, but it requires that you have a deep rapport with him. He has to have accepted you as the dominant party in the interaction at the unconsious level. Hope this helps.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: unlearning behaviours - 8/2/2004 11:38:06 AM   
Sundew02


Posts: 457
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		There is no one answer, but I will give my style of "unlearning". First I listen, intently to what the person believes caused the unwanted learned behavior. That doesn't mean it IS the cause, but their belief. I then verbally place the idea that change is necessary. Depending on the depth of the learned behavior the unlearning can take weeks, months or in some instances years. I don't verbally bring up the needed change again, but slowly let my actions demonstrate what I want. I let the person talk about the subject all they want, and slowly add bits of information or let them see the behavior I want to replace theirs. I ignore the unwanted behavior, and praise any new thoughts they have. Notice talking about and doing are two separate issues to me. To make myself clearer I will use a non-D/s example. Nail biting will work...the person says they bite their nails because it releaves stress, while they tell me all about when it started I am continually removing their fingers from their mouth. Giving them hand work or (laughing) having them say clean a toilet. Any activity that lessens their ability to get that nail in their mouth. Over time, the instinct to bite their nails when stressed decreases, replaced with something as simple as squeezing their hands together. The worst way to attempt to change a behavior in my opinion is to nag them. Have a great day, Sundew

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~~~~~Enjoy the ride, the landing could get painful~~~~

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RE: unlearning behaviours - 8/2/2004 4:24:26 PM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I My self do not tempt to unlearn behaviours learned or used as this is what makes up the person I am facing but what I do is modify those things
that conter My Teachings or Desires and ways and show that My way is better and add to that which is the behaviour of the person whom gained My attention in the first place by their being and behavors and what is part of their personna and personality. I would say this is a part of that * free will * spoke about in other threads and I suppose would be classifyed as behaviour modification as apposed to unlearning sumthing.

(in reply to Sundew02)
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RE: unlearning behaviours - 8/2/2004 7:32:09 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

So how do all of you go about unlearning behaviours or helping your partners (whether you are top, bottom or other) unlearn behaviours. Have you been faced with this? Or is it even a concern for you


I would have to agree with Leonidas on this one. It is not really possible to "not" do something.

I would say that instead of unlearning the unwanted behavior (X) I personally would focus on learning the desired behavior (not X).

But I actually have a lot of respect for the idea of neurolinguistic programming (NLP) and use it fairly frequently to change aspects of my personality.

But that is just me, could be wrong, yadda yadda yada

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: unlearning behaviours - 8/2/2004 7:54:21 PM   
SherriA


Posts: 544
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
I would say that instead of unlearning the unwanted behavior (X) I personally would focus on learning the desired behavior (not X).


Replace the undesirable behaviour with a desirable one. It's not unlearning, per se, but amounts to the same thing.

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: unlearning behaviours - 8/2/2004 8:04:53 PM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Replace the undesirable behaviour with a desirable one. It's not unlearning, per se, but amounts to the same thing.


I prefer to be pro-active rather than re-active.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to SherriA)
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RE: unlearning behaviours - 8/2/2004 8:07:02 PM   
SherriA


Posts: 544
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I prefer to be pro-active rather than re-active.


If we're talking about "unlearning" something, it's obviously reactive, isn't it? It's a reaction to something that's been learned.

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: unlearning behaviours - 8/2/2004 8:27:01 PM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline 		I have to agree with Sherri on this one, but I am going to agree with Leo also. A behaviour is an action, therefore a modified behaviour would be a reaction. If a behaviour is unacceptable, we modify it, or seek to modify it. I modify behavior during training with positive reinforcement/reward. I have found "This pleases Me" to be very effective. Something else that I do, like Michael, is personalize the address, which I believe seperates the relationship, in the submissive's mind, from other relationships.

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to SherriA)
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RE: unlearning behaviours - 8/2/2004 9:19:42 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline 		I think the easiest way to "unlearn" a behavior is to replace it with a new one. That works for my golf swing.

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proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


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RE: unlearning behaviours - 8/2/2004 9:25:56 PM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline 		Ha Ha, it does wonders for my "swing" too...Oh, but I don't play golf.

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to proudsub)
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Sorry, off topic - 8/3/2004 1:45:38 PM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		So have you had the wolf long and I just noticed it now?

Sorry, back to unlearning behaviors.

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

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RE: Sorry, off topic - 8/3/2004 5:13:23 PM   
afmvdp


Posts: 494
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		Fears, Behaviors, Thoughts, Notions, Desires...these can all change but only with the absolute willing desire to change said action or belief...even if it is in reality a "fake it till you make it" situation. To enact a change that change must be absolute and in turn the mind will eventually change with it. 1+1=3 brother ;)

(in reply to iwillserveu)
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RE: Sorry, off topic - 8/3/2004 5:16:28 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

If we're talking about "unlearning" something, it's obviously reactive, isn't it? It's a reaction to something that's been learned.


I am not talking about unlearning anything, simply updating my tool du jour in my
behavior toolbox.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to afmvdp)
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RE: Sorry, off topic - 8/4/2004 4:48:30 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: afmvdp
Fears, Behaviors, Thoughts, Notions, Desires...these can all change but only with the absolute willing desire to change said action or belief...even if it is in reality a "fake it till you make it" situation. To enact a change that change must be absolute and in turn the mind will eventually change with it. 1+1=3 brother ;)


Or of course, have the right motivation to change their behaviour (fears, thoughts, notions, desires, etc). Motivation can truly be very powerful.

I like what people have to say so far. Leonidas and Michael's approach is very similar to mine in that I believe in the positive reinforcement of a new behaviour rather then the negative reinforcement of an old behaviour. I just find it tricky when the new one contradicts the old one. Especially with stubborn people. And yeah, there definitely is a masochist side to me as I like my submissives headstrong and bold.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to afmvdp)
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RE: unlearning behaviours - 8/4/2004 6:16:15 AM   
theroebabe


Posts: 3155
Joined: 7/25/2004
Status: offline 		Well i have a few behaviours that i my self need to change and have had doms try to make me change and its not easy. One brought to mind is playing in public. none of my past relationsips have had that requirement, it has always been the opposite, that playing in private was the requirement. I know due to the play that i have experienced in the past that it is not something that can be done in public.

However, in an effort to try and get past this i have gone to parties and clubs and played public as a bottom. Part of my d/s is the connection i have with my dominant, as a bottom i dont have the same connection, so even though i have played it is not the same for me. I still have a really hard time watching someone else play wthout the comfort of someone whose feet i might be sitting at. But yet i still go to parties and clubs and torture myself. (yes i guess i am a masochist! lol).

So i think part of self improvement, is self awareness of the issue and the willingness to face it and work thru it.

Roe

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Roe

People always ask me why I do these things . . .
It's because I can!

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RE: unlearning behaviours - 8/4/2004 6:54:53 AM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		Interesting topic...

As far as having a slave unlearn a behavior... I hadle this just as any other training that I conduct. I prefer to provide a very safe, secure, and stable environment with a few very simple rules and understandings. I would place the slave in situations whereby they are forced to make a choice to follow the rules...or not. Many of these rules would be designed around a specific behavior. An example:

Slave comes to me for training.
Slave has a history with another dominant.
Slave was allowed to orgasm whenever she so desired. (This simply will not do... weg)
Slave is given 2 simple rules
1.Slave will not orgasm without my explicit permission.
2.Slave will submit to whatever punishments I deem necessary.

I will provide the slave with the safest settings that I can possibly provide. Letting her know that she is very well taken care of...that I will cause her no harm..(Hurt and harm...2 COMPLETELY different things)... allowing her time to develop a sense of trust. (This stuff isn't going to happen overnight, btw...)
Then proceed to tease, torment, torture that poor girl's pussy until she is at the very edge of her orgasm. I will hold her at that point for a pre determined amount of time.. (Lets say 1 minute...to start) Making her hold it...making her squirm...then giving her permission.

Should she fail to hold the orgasm...well then.. she gets a very uncomfortable ass-tanning, or whatever punishment seems appropriate...(sitting in the corner, loss of rights to speak, etc)

Perhaps...in one afternoon...repeat this process 5-10 times.

Conduct this training mmm...say...3-4 times a week as necessary.

Eventually... the desired behavior will appear...or the undesired behavior will dissappear.

When the slave shows progress towards achieving the goal... make sure she knows it!

Rewards work...extra snuggles...a scene of her choosing...dinner out...etc.

I think this method works with all sorts of behavior modification. I chose orgasm control, as it seems to be something I am good at, but I can imagine that the same technique can be used to help a slave learn to balance a checkbook, change the oil in the car, clean a toilet, avoid brattiness, crawl, beg, etc etc.

Hope this helps.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to FatherMichael)
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RE: unlearning behaviours - 8/4/2004 11:20:43 AM   
afmvdp


Posts: 494
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		Just those two rules? Come on. I have 50 starter rules and a 4 page personalized plan for new living for everything from bathing to eating to manners which of course they have to retype word for word along with a full synopsis and summary of their reactions, concerns, etc regarding each individual item.

But I find submissive typing erotic...I think I need to find an accountant. haha

(in reply to MrThorns)
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RE: unlearning behaviours - 8/4/2004 12:32:57 PM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: afmvdp

Just those two rules? Come on. I have 50 starter rules and a 4 page personalized plan for new living for everything from bathing to eating to manners which of course they have to retype word for word along with a full synopsis and summary of their reactions, concerns, etc regarding each individual item.

But I find submissive typing erotic...I think I need to find an accountant. haha



LOL...it was just an example. Trying to keep it as simple as possible...

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to afmvdp)
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