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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/25/2008 8:08:48 PM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		I was reading a bit about the cost of the homes being foreclosed and their location. Perhaps it was just the slant the writer took but, it didn't seem that it as some would have you believe. It isn't the lunch pail crowd as much as the investors wanting to flip investments and those buying homes on the water in areas of Calif. and Fla. Now, understand it was an editorial and lord knows what xe the guy had to grind. I'd be really interested in the statistics if anyone knows a sight?

< Message edited by SilverMark -- 9/25/2008 8:09:49 PM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/25/2008 8:10:37 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Instead of calling it 'predatory', lets blame the folks taking out huge loans they knew they couldn't afford. ARM is explained in the papers they signed when they took out the loan in the first place..


The problem is they didn't know that.  They based their loans on the belief, encouraged by lenders, that their homes would always appreciate in value and that the loan was more like a safe investment.  Even now, with all this happening, there is a television ad being run by a national realtors association making the claim that home ownership is the most profitable investment you can make. 

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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/25/2008 8:21:56 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Why didn't they know that? Because someone tells them something they just believe it. If it's an ad on TV, they just believe it? I'm just tired of feeling sorry for people that make dumb decisions in their lives. There is plenty of blame to go around here, but it starts with people buying something they can't afford..

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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/25/2008 8:30:38 PM   
Hanable


Posts: 3284
Joined: 3/19/2007
From: BFE ohio
Status: offline 		from what ive heard, on the news, online, form people around me. im for the bailout but i wanna know theres something in place that tells the banks, money lenders who ever that if they get this in debt again they will not be bailed out and that they will have to pay for it out of there own paycheck.. which will probably always rivile what ever more americans will make.

it sickens me to see these bankers with there multi million dollar homes, cars boats and everything else and watch them go "oh.. itll be ok.. u can pay it off" to some poor moron who dosent have the sence to take the loan paper to some official, an accountant or at least someone who knows more then they do about money and such. it truly sickens me to watch them live off of makying poor ppl.. well poorer.

im not saying all the blame is on the bankers, that would be stupid, cuz its not all there fault. people got stupid with how good the economy was going and forgot that everything that goes up will come down harder and faster then it went up. the banks should have known not to give out all this money. yes i understand that to make money you must spend money.. but to be so far behind that you dont have enough to cover your ass with out having to ask the government for help is jsut sad. i mean these are the people we trust to take care of our money.. our future. it scars me that banks can not be trusted any more.

idk who to trust any more.. i mean u cant trust the banks to take care of money, the government to take care of the laws.. who wont we be able to trust next?

H >:)

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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/25/2008 8:55:57 PM   
TNstepsout


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Yea, I do. I have bought 4 homes and am debt free. For each one I had an attorney review my loan agreement to avoid any pitfalls. Whatever happened to 'buyer be aware'. Don't these people know how to read???


In some cases no. I work in the HOA industry and I'm appalled at the ignorance and stupidity of many of the people who call me. It's amazing that anyone would loan these people 100-200k!  Some of them are so confused by a basic bill I can't imagine how any of them could have the slightest clue how their mortgage works. It's shocking.



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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/25/2008 8:56:36 PM   
cloudboy


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I was impressed by Stephen Chapman's views on the subject. He makes me wonder what would happen if we let these fuck-ups eat their own pile of shit.

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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/25/2008 9:21:02 PM   
Paulnz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

the claim that home ownership is the most profitable investment you can make. 


That would be misleading, but it is still a worthwhile decision as it commits people to a long term plan.


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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/25/2008 9:27:50 PM   
UncleNasty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


I share the anger, but, as you said, we are in this mess.  It will only be worse for taxpayers, in the long run, if these banks start to collapse.  




I couldn't agree less. The best in the long run would be to allow the failures and insolvencies. At that point the monetary system we operate under currently would be scrapped. This would provide the opportunity we need to reclaim the abilities of "creation of money" and "issuance of credit" back to the citizens and take it out of the hands of private corporations.

This isn't the first "bailout" of a select and corrupt few by the masses, and as long as the current system is in place it won't be the last. The name of the game is "Bailout" and they'll play as many innings as we/you/I let them, with all the costs passed directly onto our backs.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/25/2008 9:38:48 PM   
TNstepsout


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


I was impressed by Stephen Chapman's views on the subject. He makes me wonder what would happen if we let these fuck-ups eat their own pile of shit.


That's a good article, but I don't think the writer really understands the severity of the impact on our economy if these banks fail. It will have a ripple effect somewhat like the run on the banks in the 30's. This is not just a matter of keeping some banks open. It's a matter of salvaging the confidence in our banking system as a whole. People have to feel confident that their money is safe in American banks. We have failsafes for commercial banks, but the investment banks don't have that. A lot of the money invested in recent years has come from foreign countries. They put their money in American investments because they felt confident that it would be safe here. Now they are pulling it out at lightening speed.  We're talking hundreds of billions of dollars. Money that is being loaned to American companies to grow and expand, new ones to start up, for families to buy or build houses or pay college tuition, or maybe just pay for a vacation or Christmas shopping. What happens when there is no money to loan? This is truly a critical issue and while I think that recessions are just part of the ebb and flow of the economy, we are facing the prospect of a depression. If Congress fails to pass this plan, or something like it, they better be working on a New New Deal, because we are going to need it.



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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/25/2008 10:48:57 PM   
DDraigeuraid


Posts: 321
Joined: 4/3/2008
Status: offline 		Panic!!  Everybody PANIC!!!!!  The world as we know it is coming to an end and everything will.....CHANGE!!!!!  Lets back off a bit, and see that this is not a crises.  This problem could be solved fairly simply.  Declare a six month,  maybe more, maybe less, moritorium on home foreclosures.  Re-negotiate those ARMs to a reasonable fixed rate.  Sure, there are still going to be those dolts who couldn't figure out how to get current, or don't have a job.  Even so, the vast majority could be re-negotiated.  In the meantime, the congress and administration could look at the problem in a non panic mode, actually take the time to READ what they are going to vote on....Nah, never gonna happen, asking them to actually do the job they were electd to do.

Dragon

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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/26/2008 1:05:12 AM   
Paulnz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DDraigeuraid

Declare a six month,  maybe more, maybe less, moritorium on home foreclosures.  Re-negotiate those ARMs to a reasonable fixed rate. 


Excellent idea

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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/26/2008 1:38:41 AM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Senator Christopher Dodd is the chairman of the Senate Banking Committee and is one of the leading politicians trying to negotiate a deal to bailout the US economy out of the current financial crisis.

So i did some research and found an article that gave a list of Christopher Dodd's biggest doners. What is funny is that a guy like this could have a donor list like this and be a big character in putting together the largest banking bailout in American history....and then bash people who blew up his deal. He was on CNN earlier slamming McCain because McCain dared to question him.

Sen. Dodd's list of donors:
Citigroup, $310,294;
SAC Capital Partners, $282,000;
United Technologies, $263,400;
AIG, $224,678;
Bear Stearns, $205,600;
St. Paul Travelers, $205,400;
Royal Bank of Scotland, $203,750;
Goldman Sachs, $175,600;
Morgan Stanley, $155,000;
Credit Suisse, $154,550;
Merrill Lynch, $134,950;
JPMorgan Chase, $129,150;
Lehman Brothers, $128,400;
KPMG, $113,100;
General Electric, $108,250;
Deloitte Touche, $108,000;
USB, $101,900;
Hartford Finance Services, $101,500;
The Hartford, $94,350;
Bank of America, $91,300.

This doesnt include that this guy got a sweet VIP deal from Countrywide (a deal you or me would never get) which saved him $75,000 on two mortgages.

I wonder whose interests this guy is looking out for while negotiating a bailout with OUR money!

A perfect example why this bill should die. The millionaire CEOs in these banks want the government to save their skin. And this is just one Congressmen. There are many others with similar donor sheets on both sides of the aisle. We are in this mess because of them and now they want you, the taxpayer, to get them out of it.


.  Appreciate the work you did to find this.  Could you post the link please?

It is just another reason why our government is dysfunctional.  It's designed to favor those people who make a career out of serving in Congress, acquire tremendous power over the distribution of our taxes, and become beholden to special interest groups. Term limits should be legislated...but what representative is going to vote in favor of such a Bill...not enough, unfortunately.  And so we keep these sly foxes in charge of the hen house and "easy pickin's".

As was said here by a number of people, if the plan to save the financial system of our country is defeated or watered down, consumer confidence (that's us by the way) will erode and we will be on that slippery slope towards a financial disaster for ALL of us.  The ripple affects throughout the world of finance will be horrible with companies not being able to finance their operations and consumers not being able to keep small businesses going, jobs eliminated, and that D word becoming more of a possibility.

We don't need politicians interested only in casting blame, constantly bringing up who is to blame, yadayadayada.
We can get back to that later and hold all those dozens of hearings our representatives so love to create.  At the moment we are in the midst of a real national emergency that requires strong, aggressive action..not "words".

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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/26/2008 2:09:28 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I think that the lending practices of these banks have changed already. Like it used to be, you now need excellant credit for any type of loan. Here is another example. How many credit card applications have you recieved in the last month compared to six months ago.? I'm willing to bet thet are way down to almost nothing..
Actually, I've received quite a few "debt consolidation" offers, but I, unlike most so-called "Dominates" [sic] [joke], have been able to manage my affairs without the assistance of more and more debt, TYVM.

What I can't get anymore is an 80% LTV lo-doc loan. Period. That money has dried up. Money for investors has disappeared. And I'm not now, nor have I ever been, a "flipper". I bought for the long-term rental cash flow, not for the trivial rewards of  "paint, carpet, 20% return". I did my due diligence; inspected the properties, did competetive rental market analyses, and all that good shit. Problem was, every suburban dildo who could pull a few grand equity out of his ghetto McMansion tried being a "real estate investor". That's about the time I started getting out. I took my money off the table, and paid the mortgage on my house off.  Let all these other douchebags hold Joe Granville's Bag (if you don't get the reference, you have no business "investing")

It's those "Seminar Investors", the housewives and such who went to some so-called "no money down" "buy tax default properties/foreclosures/yada yada" who totally fucked everything up. They had no idea what they were doing. They'd bid on anything, and, in the process, collectively artificially inflate "values."

Well, fuck it. I'm cool. I went contrarian and did OK.

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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/26/2008 3:18:50 AM   
lronitulstahp


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Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The Govt. made money on the savings and loan bailout and the Chrysler bailout. They will make money on this to. ps..This was not Bush's fault. It started during the Clinton adminisration when banks were forced to change lending practices so more minorities could buy a home... It got out of control from that point.. 
somehow, somewhere, i knew this was all my fault................

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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/26/2008 4:01:08 AM   
TNstepsout


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Joined: 8/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DDraigeuraid

Panic!!  Everybody PANIC!!!!!  The world as we know it is coming to an end and everything will.....CHANGE!!!!!  Lets back off a bit, and see that this is not a crises.  This problem could be solved fairly simply.  Declare a six month,  maybe more, maybe less, moritorium on home foreclosures.  Re-negotiate those ARMs to a reasonable fixed rate.  Sure, there are still going to be those dolts who couldn't figure out how to get current, or don't have a job.  Even so, the vast majority could be re-negotiated.  In the meantime, the congress and administration could look at the problem in a non panic mode, actually take the time to READ what they are going to vote on....Nah, never gonna happen, asking them to actually do the job they were electd to do.

Dragon


The problem with that option is that it's very difficult to get a new loan right now and will only be more difficult if there is not some kind of infusion of cash into the system. That is the entire problem and part of what this plan seeks to solve. By having the government buy the bad mortgages, the lending institutions can free up some cash for lending, or obtain loans to increase their available cash for lending. Right now no one wants to loan money to these institutions because there is no confidence that they are lending on good solid assets. By taking the bad ones out of the equation the lender or investor can feel confident again.  In the business I am in we are seeing very high numbers of loans falling through (at least half) and sales not being completed because the buyer cannot get a loan. Or in at least one case I know if, the lender was approved for the loan, but the mortgage company could not fund the loan.  The long term fallout from that is that the excess supply of houses (right now estimated to be about 10 months worth-and that's just based on available new buyer estimates) is about 10 months. If people cannot obtain loans to buy these houses, that number would probably triple or quadruple. That means 30 to 40 more months of stagnate home sales and the resulting effect on all the markets that home building/buying touches.

Also, if you simply freeze foreclosures for a period of time, only a portion of those people will be able to refinance. Many would not qualify at current terms. That means lending institutions would be stuck with bad loans on the books for even longer than they are now before they can foreclose and sell the asset.  This would actually further deteriorate the problem of investors not knowing or trusting the solidity of the loans on the books.  It would also stop up the pipes further because the sale of the asset generates some cash that can now be reinvested in new loans. Hopefully one that is solid and can be repaid.

That's why it's more productive if the government takes on these loans. They have the ability to sit on them longer than these private institutions can. They can "freeze" the foreclosures for a time because they are not in the position of desperately needing cash to stay in business. They may also be able to provide some kind of government backed mortgages for these people if they cannot find refinancing in the private sector.

It's really unfortunate that we are in this mess. It could have been avoided by some early intervention. I know congressmen are thumping their chests and claiming to be protecting their constituents, but where were they 2-3 years ago when it was obvious that someone needed to step in with some regulation of these markets? The greedy bankers can be blamed for failing to self-regulate, but really, who expects that to happen? Who blames the two year old when the house burns down because Mom wasn't watching him? The Feds knew of the danger of this kind of lending and the possible fallout, it was brought to their attention years ago and they chose to ignore it. Why? Because the economy was booming and no one wanted to be a killjoy.  Now we have a real mess on our hands.

And make no mistake, we are in a WORLD of hurt. This is not just a bump in the road, this is serious.

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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/26/2008 4:57:46 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


I share the anger, but, as you said, we are in this mess.  It will only be worse for taxpayers, in the long run, if these banks start to collapse.  




I couldn't agree less. The best in the long run would be to allow the failures and insolvencies. At that point the monetary system we operate under currently would be scrapped. This would provide the opportunity we need to reclaim the abilities of "creation of money" and "issuance of credit" back to the citizens and take it out of the hands of private corporations.

This isn't the first "bailout" of a select and corrupt few by the masses, and as long as the current system is in place it won't be the last. The name of the game is "Bailout" and they'll play as many innings as we/you/I let them, with all the costs passed directly onto our backs.

Uncle Nasty


If they fail, do you think the costs are going to be borne by the executives of these companies?  The costs will still be passed on to the taxpayer. 

Washington Mutual just failed.  The largest bank collapse in our history.  Do you think the executives that made the poor decisions will suffer or will it be the people who had WaMu in their 401k's and saw their entire equity in that company wiped out?

If JPMorgan had not bought their assets then the FDIC fund would have been tapped to cover the deposits.  Who pays for that if not the taxpayer?

If these banks start failing like dominoes, which is not unlikely considering how many of them have seen their stock prices plunge because of the bad debt on their books, it will make the $700 bilion look like a drop in the bucket compared to what taxpayers will be on the hook for in FDIC losses alone.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/26/2008 5:00:46 AM >

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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/26/2008 5:23:47 AM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty.  

I couldn't agree less. The best in the long run would be to allow the failures and insolvencies. At that point the monetary system we operate under currently would be scrapped. This would provide the opportunity we need to reclaim the abilities of "creation of money" and "issuance of credit" back to the citizens and take it out of the hands of private corporations.

This isn't the first "bailout" of a select and corrupt few by the masses, and as long as the current system is in place it won't be the last. The name of the game is "Bailout" and they'll play as many innings as we/you/I let them, with all the costs passed directly onto our backs.

Uncle Nasty


I don't quite understand what you are saying here. What do you mean by credit issuance on the back of the citizens? Do you mean people would loan money to one another? How would that work?  What is reclaiming the abilities of "creation of money"? I don't understand that phrase.

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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/26/2008 6:07:18 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

This so called bailout could end up being a good thing. We (taxpayers) are buying this bad paper at about 70 cents on the dollar. When the housing market does turn around, and it will, the value of this could double..Warren Buffett would not have just invested 5 billion in Goldman Sachs if he thought all of this was a waste of money..The biggest problem will be stopping the morons in Congress from wasteing the money we make on this...



The tax payer will NOT benefit.   That assessment is a PR stunt.  Wall street always takes the cream off the top.  NOTE: investors make money weather the market goes up OR DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!

I am boarding up my windows- most are done- just 3 left.  For if we dont pay all our money, ( instead of a car jacking this is a house jacking)   a giant volcano will speill and ooze radioactive vomit and seman into the eyeballs.  Yup- we all die at midnight!

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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/26/2008 6:35:16 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

NOTE: investors make money weather the market goes up OR DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!



huh? 

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RE: The Bailout Plan. Enough to make you sick! - 9/26/2008 7:10:10 AM   
rexrgisformidoni


Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline 		This is all an end result of the sweeping aside the regulations put in place during the great depression. And the lobbyists for the big banks and investment firms wined and dined and basically paid for these oligarchs who sit in Washington who claim to represent us. In some ways this is all of our faults for not cleaning the house as it were every now and then, but the majority of the blame is with those who sit in the committees who voted and schemed this mess. Go ahead and argue, but thats the way I see things and the way history has unfolded in the past 20 years. 

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