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WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/25/2008 9:52:43 PM   
MrRodgers


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Think about this in the interest of your children and their young families. Truly act upon any feelings you may have about just how this country and its economy is operated.

"You know my feelings against setting up a federal banking system and turning paper into money. For if we do that..we will forever be SLAVES to the speculators." John Adams circa 1820 just a few years before his death.

Have we learned anything here ? Are we seeing what our govt. has allowed to take place ? Are we the taxpayer not yet again being called upon to take the risk for private profiteers who blew their bets in the casino of wall street speculation.
WE must change this whole culture of the newest and most telling oxymoron of modern times...free market/capitalism. It is time for serious govt. action to reign in, regulate and tax speculation and without debt.

None of this (capitalism) is even an economy...creates NO jobs and in fact reduces jobs...seeks to shed jobs. Capitalism is money seeking money and produces no goods and services and creates demand for almost no goods and services.
Capitalism merely creates a huge house-of-cards within the casino of speculation where any good gust of wind could blow it over.

I have no familial concerns but for those with kids and grandkids in America, each now has approx. $86,000 in federal debt. When will your kids be rich or even successful ? When they are $100,000 in debt to the govt. ? How about $150,000 in federal debt...EACH ?

The house of cards that is wall street has blown over and as Adams warned...WE are all now slave to these speculators.
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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/25/2008 9:54:13 PM   
NormalOutside


Posts: 622
Joined: 1/8/2008
Status: offline 		As Ron Paul said today:

"The only thing we learn from history, I'm afraid, is that we never learn anything from history."

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/25/2008 10:43:32 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NormalOutside

As Ron Paul said today:

"The only thing we learn from history, I'm afraid, is that we never learn anything from history."

"It is not worth while to try to keep history from repeating itself, for man's character will always make the preventing of the repetitions impossible." Twain

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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 12:19:42 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


"You know my feelings against setting up a federal banking system and turning paper into money. For if we do that..we will forever be SLAVES to the speculators." John Adams circa 1820 just a few years before his death.



I didn't know Adams was a Marxist before Marx "Capital is dead labor, which, vampire-like, lives only by sucking living labor, and lives the more, the more labor it sucks."


Has for history,  "History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce." Maybe Marx will end up being right on that score for what we are witnessing in Washington now is the farce of shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic because all statistical indications point to a depression if nothing is done.

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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 12:26:53 AM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline 		I call bullshit. We're not slaves any more today than we were 10 years ago, nor will be 10 years from now, barring Chinese invasion.

This is a mess, but it's not a conspiracy of men in business suits in dark rooms; it is government regulation run rampant, for a mixture of noble and selfish purposes, but not for enslaving the nation. The democracy is the tyrrany, and it always has been. Adapt, survive, and strive to make your corner of the world slightly more free, even if it's at the expense of your temporary security; and you will see improvement. Do that, and you will find respect.

If this really bothers you, run for office. Fail, and try again. One Ron Paul is ineffective, but a nation of them would make a world that is liveable.

_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 12:31:06 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

I call bullshit. We're not slaves any more today than we were 10 years ago, nor will be 10 years from now, barring Chinese invasion.

This is a mess, but it's not a conspiracy of men in business suits in dark rooms; it is government regulation run rampant, for a mixture of noble and selfish purposes, but not for enslaving the nation. The democracy is the tyrrany, and it always has been. Adapt, survive, and strive to make your corner of the world slightly more free, even if it's at the expense of your temporary security; and you will see improvement. Do that, and you will find respect.



This crisis is not caused through regulation run rampant, it is caused through there being no regulation of significance.

As for men in business suits, while they are unfettered, they don't have time to conspire, they are too consumed with greed, making money out of fresh air that everyone else has to pay for in the end.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to DMFParadox)
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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 12:55:40 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		There is a major financial crisis and I think it was not difficult to see that the explosion of credit for both personal consumption and property was unsustainable and would eventually lead to trouble.
Not to mention things like "selling short" and "leveraged buy outs"
Who would predict that the Wall streeters would package worthless loans and market them in a mad merry go round of highly "toxic" lol assets.

As for government debt, that is a result of politicians vying for power by giving themselves and the electorate what they want, useless non productive jobs or excessive welfare and adding in  ridiculous levels of spending on military hardware. eg the UK's nuclear submarine programme.
the US's star wars programme.

The banking system put in its rightful place does provide a useful service in that production and productive assets can be generated by legitimate responsible borrowing supported by the creation of "paper" money.
Unfortunately it is easier to create wealth by issuing financial notes than it is to build a better mouse trap therefore over the years the financial sector has risen in influence and wealth.

The only solution is rigorous intrusive independant bi partisan control of the Wall street spivs.
Lets hope that this "difficulty" provides a step in that direction.

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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 1:51:47 AM   
VivaciousSub


Posts: 446
Joined: 9/7/2008
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		Frankly, I saw this mess coming a long time ago. The lending and credit industry terms 3 years ago even were so ludicrously in favor of the banks that it was obviously - to me at least - not sustainable in the long run. I made a point at the time to start transferring stocks out of the banking industry and into something a bit more solid. That's paid off now, but at the time I got some weird looks.

The trigger was a home-buyers course I attended when I lived in Philly about 3 years ago. The broker running it got the famed VS Eyebrow Of Ultimate Skepticism when he told us that no, really, you could borrow 110% from the banks. That, my friends, is not home ownership. That's the bank owning you.

What really got me at the time was how rampant and "normal" this kind of lending practice was becoming.

One might have good cause to believe that very few, if any, people in the government had ever read Smith's Wealth of Nations.


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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 3:11:02 AM   
MadAxeman


Posts: 4171
Joined: 8/28/2008
From: UK
Status: offline 		Has for history,  "History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce." Maybe Marx will end up being right on that score for what we are witnessing in Washington now is the farce of shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic because all statistical indications point to a depression if nothing is done.

Unfortunately, there is a recession coming even if something is done. Regulation now should be aimed at avoiding a steep dive into depression, by making the financial markets more stable and the economy more able to withstand what is to come. From here it looks like many Americans believe that one stinging tax bailout will solve the coming problems, I doubt this will be the case. While America absorbs the cost of the solution (when it's eventually finalised and applied) new crises will have to be dealt with. The increasing scarcity and therefore cost of fossil fuels and global warming being two that spring to mind as inevitable.

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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 5:08:09 AM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		I never thought of us as slaves, I have always thought of this as

 our 21st century in our fucking faces DEPRESSION.  Let's start
 
calling IT what it is, if and when it HITS.  

< Message edited by MzMia -- 9/26/2008 5:11:46 AM >

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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 5:58:04 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		catharsis, humility, humble are cleansing.

America needs clensed.

I just got my depression meds.   30 day supply is $444.00 !!!!!   Im like whatttt!

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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 6:05:17 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

"You know my feelings against setting up a federal banking system and turning paper into money. For if we do that..we will forever be SLAVES to the speculators." John Adams circa 1820 just a few years before his death.

I didn't know Adams was a Marxist before Marx "Capital is dead labor, which, vampire-like, lives only by sucking living labor, and lives the more, the more labor it sucks."

Has for history,  "History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce." Maybe Marx will end up being right on that score for what we are witnessing in Washington now is the farce of shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic because all statistical indications point to a depression if nothing is done.

meatcleaver, this only shows your complete lack of understanding of what Adams was warning us about and the same about just what is Marxism.

Unless you mean the marxists in Washington are too busy bailing out the marxists on wall street and I am still not so sure.

You couldn't be farther off point.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 9/26/2008 6:14:07 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 6:10:19 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I find this to be a riddle.

Supposedly 19 terrorists failed to destroy the temple of greed.

all the while-  those who made up that temple of greed- did to themself what the bad terrorists could not.

bring the US to its knees.

Go figure

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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 6:12:03 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		What I lot of people miss in all this is

1) the "banking system" you're referring to isn't the issue in this crisis--commercial banks are already well-regulated.
2) this "crisis" didn't spring up overnight. http://writingtrue.blogspot.com/2008/09/can-mccain-handle-multiple.html
3) this plan ENDS independent investment banking by NATIONALIZING the remaining investment banks (the others are now under commercial banking regulation)
4) this plan STRIPS the power of controlling the purse strings from Congress and hands it, WITHOUT OVERSIGHT, to the Secretary of the Treasury (appointed by the President and needing no Senate confirmation)
5) this is the latest "we're in a crisis and must act immediately to take extraordinary measures" tactic Bush used to sell his invasion of Iraq (which had nothing to do with 9/11 or WMD) and the subversion of the Constitution under the Patriot Act.

Of course, he passed those when a Republican Congress rubber stamped his idiocy. I hope the Democrats have the balls to reign him in this time. Yes, the financial mess is real, and yes, something, unfortunately, must be done--but it DOESN'T have to be rammed through immediately with this false sense of urgency. The credit markets will be fine as long as something is in the works. Let's take the time to get one right, for once, and yes, the people fleeced under the usury-like mortgage practices deserve at least a chance to make good on their debt and keep their homes---THAT will be better for the country, its people, its lenders--and its economy.

Tim

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 6:12:03 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

I call bullshit. We're not slaves any more today than we were 10 years ago, nor will be 10 years from now, barring Chinese invasion.

This is a mess, but it's not a conspiracy of men in business suits in dark rooms; it is government regulation run rampant, for a mixture of noble and selfish purposes, but not for enslaving the nation. The democracy is the tyrrany, and it always has been. Adapt, survive, and strive to make your corner of the world slightly more free, even if it's at the expense of your temporary security; and you will see improvement. Do that, and you will find respect.

If this really bothers you, run for office. Fail, and try again. One Ron Paul is ineffective, but a nation of them would make a world that is liveable.

It is clear you have no understanding of the purposes of financial regulations, Adams or just what it is Wash. is about to do.

That is the way it is supposed to be so you will be a willing, unknowing slave to all of this debt. Wall street and the investor class are very happy to see you are also quite willing to get up in the morning (your kids and their kids and their...) to bailout them out when their unmitigated 'unregulated' greed gets them in trouble in the casino of their bets that wall street is.

(in reply to DMFParadox)
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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 6:18:33 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I find this to be a riddle.

Supposedly 19 terrorists failed to destroy the temple of greed.

all the while-  those who made up that temple of greed- did to themself what the bad terrorists could not.

bring the US to its knees.

Go figure

More like 13 since 6 are still alive.

We don't need to go 'figure.' 9/11 inspired the temple of greed and we have seen nothing different before or since...it is just going to cost (US workers)  a whole lot more now...before its all over.

Thw 'war on terror' is just another profit center.

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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 6:22:02 AM   
cjan


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quote:

WE are ALL SLAVES now



Hey, MrRodgers, you're just now noticing your shackles and chains ? Better late than never, I suppose.


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" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 6:24:02 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

quote:

WE are ALL SLAVES now



Hey, MrRodgers, you're just now noticing your shackles and chains ? Better late than never, I suppose.



Speak for yourselves. Apparently, slavery is a state of mind  .

_____________________________



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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 6:30:35 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

quote:

WE are ALL SLAVES now


Hey, MrRodgers, you're just now noticing your shackles and chains ? Better late than never, I suppose.

Speak for yourselves. Apparently, slavery is a state of mind  .

Well I know you are being a bit sarcastic but what we see now IS capitalism, have seen it ALL of my adult life and the 'slavery' or 'ball and chains' is the ever increasing and permanent debt we and our children and their children and theirs...will have to pay. It's called financial slavery...vanilla society's best kind don't ya think...

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RE: WE are ALL SLAVES now - 9/26/2008 6:34:22 AM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

I call bullshit. We're not slaves any more today than we were 10 years ago, nor will be 10 years from now, barring Chinese invasion.

This is a mess, but it's not a conspiracy of men in business suits in dark rooms; it is government regulation run rampant, for a mixture of noble and selfish purposes, but not for enslaving the nation. The democracy is the tyrrany, and it always has been. Adapt, survive, and strive to make your corner of the world slightly more free, even if it's at the expense of your temporary security; and you will see improvement. Do that, and you will find respect.

If this really bothers you, run for office. Fail, and try again. One Ron Paul is ineffective, but a nation of them would make a world that is liveable.

It is clear you have no understanding of the purposes of financial regulations, Adams or just what it is Wash. is about to do.

That is the way it is supposed to be so you will be a willing, unknowing slave to all of this debt. Wall street and the investor class are very happy to see you are also quite willing to get up in the morning (your kids and their kids and their...) to bailout them out when their unmitigated 'unregulated' greed gets them in trouble in the casino of their bets that wall street is.


Please, enlighten me as to why your opinion is more educated than mine.

I don't support the bailout, but I also don't see it as the end of the world, or of freedom. Simply another bad decision.

As for the 'speculators', they speculated with the money of the American people; the average investor, person with a savings account, and homeowner that can't pay their bills. And those people are the ones that Washington is attempting to bail out.

When you've got a leech on your back, you can get away with yanking it off, if you can reach it. More adviseable is that you don't yank it out right away; because the wound will bleed, and there will be leech bits that infect you. When you've got hundreds of leeches on someone and your patient is dying of anemia, you definitely don't yank them off. You give the patient blood and then attempt to burn them off, one by one. Again, I don't support the bailout as it's structured, but this is not being done so that some rich white guys can get away with playing fools. Trust me, most of those 'investor class' people have lost a LOT, and are seriously rethinking how they play with risk. The bailout might save them, but it will save you more, in the short term. And something does need to be done.

_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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