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Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/25/2008 10:43:14 PM

sravaka

Posts: 314
Joined: 6/20/2008
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Hello, all. I've been enjoying reading the discussions here for a while but this is the first time I'm venturing to post. Please don't hurt me.

I have two big fuzzy questions I've been puzzling over for a long time, and thought I'd post them and see what happens.

1) Do dominants empathize with submissives? Or do they merely understand submissives well enough to know which buttons to push to get a particular/desired reaction? For my part, I know very well that while I might understand dominants intellectually, I cannot remotely empathize with them-- their view of things is entirely foreign to me. If empathy is not part of the equation, what distinguishes dominants from more or less enlightened sociopaths? I think the answer hinges on the next question. (your mileage may vary.)

2) I realize we all define dominant, submissive, master, slave, and numerous other terms in wildly divergent ways.... but I wonder: how/where does ethics figure in your definition of dominance? Not necessarily for yourself; just in general. In other words, is "do no harm," e.g., part and parcel of being a dominant? Or does dominance precede "do no harm" and need to be restrained accordingly?

--sravaka

Post #: 1

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/25/2008 10:54:14 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

Hello, all. I've been enjoying reading the discussions here for a while but this is the first time I'm venturing to post. Please don't hurt me.

I have two big fuzzy questions I've been puzzling over for a long time, and thought I'd post them and see what happens.

1) Do dominants empathize with submissives? Or do they merely understand submissives well enough to know which buttons to push to get a particular/desired reaction? For my part, I know very well that while I might understand dominants intellectually, I cannot remotely empathize with them-- their view of things is entirely foreign to me. If empathy is not part of the equation, what distinguishes dominants from more or less enlightened sociopaths? I think the answer hinges on the next question. (your mileage may vary.)

2) I realize we all define dominant, submissive, master, slave, and numerous other terms in wildly divergent ways.... but I wonder: how/where does ethics figure in your definition of dominance? Not necessarily for yourself; just in general. In other words, is "do no harm," e.g., part and parcel of being a dominant? Or does dominance precede "do no harm" and need to be restrained accordingly?

--sravaka

Ethics in my domination is preserving my pleasure. If that seems parochial or selfish...it is. My restriant is in the preservation of that which pleases me.

(in reply to sravaka)

Post #: 2

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/25/2008 11:20:10 PM

WyldHrt

Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
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quote:

Please don't hurt me

Bad thing to say in a forum lousy with sadists

Asking something with the caveat "not for yourself, just in general" assures that you will get less helpful replies, as people can really only answer honestly from their own veiwpoint. The fact is that there is no rule book and that each relationship dynamic is unique, so there isn't a "one size fits all" answer to your question. That said, BDSM relationships are just that, relationships. Not really that much different from vanilla relationships when you boil it down.

For myself, I couldn't be in any relationship that lacked love, empathy, and emotion, no matter what the dynamic. I'm just not wired that way. Others see things differently, and that's what works for them.

_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
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Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
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(in reply to sravaka)

Post #: 3

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 12:38:18 AM

TabrisMaceth

Posts: 190
Joined: 9/23/2008
From: The Ghost Matrix
Status: offline

Still being pretty new to all this, I kinda wonder about ethics and empathy, myself. I am most definitely a dom, but I also have a strong sense of ethics and an even stronger sense of empathy. I'm a little worried that if I ever find a sub, I'm going to totally puss out and go soft on her. "Punish me, Master! Spank me! I've been so bad! I...why did you lightly tap me, Master?"

-Tabris

_____________________________

I don't like hand baskets. Everything's always going to Hell in them.

(in reply to WyldHrt)

Post #: 4

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 12:46:22 AM

VivaciousSub

Posts: 446
Joined: 9/7/2008
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline

quote:

"Punish me, Master! Spank me! I've been so bad! I...why did you lightly tap me, Master?"

-Tabris

This made me spray Crystal Light all over my desk!

And you can tap me anytime.

_____________________________

9.8m/s^2 + VivaciousSub + ground = ouchx10^9th

To yield readily--easily--to the persuasion of a friend is no merit.... To yield without conviction is no compliment to the understanding of either. ~ Pride and Prejudice

(in reply to TabrisMaceth)

Post #: 5

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 5:39:58 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

He doesn't understand my drive to be submissive but he can empathize with the myriad of other feelings I have. So if I get frightened, he doesn't dismiss it.

As far as ethics and dominance go, I can't understand why you can't be an ethical dominant. However I wonder about sadism and ethics, about how a sadist goes about reining his sadism in.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to VivaciousSub)

Post #: 6

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 6:35:07 AM

chamberqueen

Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline

sravaka, your questions are valid and the answers should also help other newcomers. Doms (masculine or feminine) are just as diverse as any other group of people.

When I was a Domme I was so concerned about my subs that I was actually cheating myself. I tried to get into their minds and hearts and make their fantasies turn into reality, all the while putting safety first. I was at one end of the spectrum. There are others at the opposite end, looking only for their own pleasure, and caring nothing for the sub. Most find a happy balance somewhere in between. If the sub feels no sense of fulfillment they can simply walk away from the relationship, so simply from that perspective it makes sense for a Dom to watch out for the sub's interests. Most Doms do honestly care about whether the sub is getting enjoyment and if they are it makes their own pleasure grow. That's when it is a true symbiotic relationship. This is the way that the majority of healthy BDSM relationships work.

These Doms do have ethics that they apply. It goes beyond the physical and crosses over into the emotional. This can be much more tricky because there are times when something unexpected comes up - some trigger is touched that can leave the sub very vulnerable. While many Doms may have exceptional physical abilities there is only a subset of those that can handle unexpected emotional reactions well. In some cases the sub knows what the triggers are likely to be and should communicate those to the Dom. In some cases they come as a surprise to both.

Have an idea of what your wants and needs are when looking for a Dom. If you need to feel like you also count in the relationship, look for someone who seems that they can give that. Some enjoy being treated as if they are nothing and there are Doms out there that can fill that need. In my case I discovered that I fit the lifestyle better as a slave to a Master that shows me empathy and is ethical than as a Domme that was basically serving her subs. You will find your own fit.

_____________________________

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 7

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 6:36:25 AM

WhiplashSmile2

Posts: 526
Joined: 6/11/2008
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Everybody (Dom,sub,switch, whatever) has some form of ethics and morals that they live by.   Just because one is any given orientation does not make then somehow not human.    Ethics and morals are a human thing.   So is empathy or even the lack of it. Everybody has various degress of empathy, excluding the so called sociopaths.

I have empathy for people, including a submissive partner. However, just because I can empathize with somebody does not mean I should shift away from my ethics in regarding some issue.   If for instance a submissive is having an issue with she must face or deal with, I'm not going to let her off the hook, and say it's OK you don't have to deal or face your problems.

If for instance I am having a bad day, it's nice if somebody has a little empathy for me. Mind you empathy is not to be confused with pity.   If my submissive partner is having a bad day, it's a good thing that I can empathize with her as well.

BDSM relationships are still relationships between two human beings. Most human beings have a full set and range of emotions.

I really don't by into a seperated school of thought, where being into BDSM or the lifestyle somehow excludes us from being human or from the human race itself. We are not aliens from another planet after all.

I could see this perhaps if we all were a bunch of Vulcans from Star Trek, or some other race that does not have emotions. Beam me up Scotty, get me the fuck out of here Now Damn it, I need to have a Stiff drink with Bones.

I really don't understand why so many people somehow attempt to Remove the Human factors of relationships and human interaction just because they are into BDSM or the Lifestyle.

Come on here people, get with reality! A Dom is a human being and so is a submissive.

(in reply to sravaka)

Post #: 8

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 6:43:48 AM

natasha66

Posts: 321
Joined: 10/14/2006
From: NJ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

For myself, I couldn't be in any relationship that lacked love, empathy, and emotion, no matter what the dynamic. I'm just not wired that way. Others see things differently, and that's what works for them.

I couldn't, either....nor would I want to be. I need the give and take....

_____________________________

"If you bother me again I shall visit you in the small hours of the night and put a bat up your nightdress".
~Basil Fawlty

Collared June 4th, 2008
Love is giving him the power to destroy you, but trusting him not to.

(in reply to WyldHrt)

Post #: 9

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 7:05:44 AM

DMFParadox

Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
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1) I have a tremendous amount of empathy, so much that I sometimes have trouble distinguishing my own desires from someone else's.

Did a Dom just say that with a straight face? Gosh golly, he must be fooling himself then...

Nope. I've found that my empathy steers me away from people that try to direct me, because I'm constantly contradicting them. When I face their rage, I am enraged--with them. When I face their frustration, I am frustrated--with them. When I face fear, I am emboldened to step forward. When I face overweening confidence, I feel reserved. When I face self-doubt, I want to inspire confidence. When I face the desire to please, then I desire to be pleased. I am pleased. And because I pick up signals quickly, I tend to respond more dramatically.

It becomes a constant struggle to not challenge, to not push, and I've found that I simply cannot relate to my women long-term as an equal. It's too much stress, and it never lasts long. If I have a woman that clearly understands I'm in charge, and I get to push her buttons with her clear and enthusiastic cooperation, then things last a bit longer.

2) Ethics are tricky. VERY tricky. I'd say that the ethics of the Dom are: what's best for the group first, the Dom second, and the submissive third. If washing the dishes so that the sub can rest means that the household runs smoother, then the dishes will be washed. If she's (the sub) awake and rested as he is on equal terms, then she either offers to serve or gets punted into it. And the Dom gets to spend his time either resting, working, playing Xbox, screwing with her while she's doing them, whatever is the best use of his time on his terms. Lastly, he attends to her needs; health, finance, whatever, either in supporting her or in directing her to correct choices for herself. Some need micromanaging, but very few; usually it's just broad directives to take care of herself, with minor adjustments here and there. To extend the analogy, he makes sure that she's got the tools to wash those dishes easily.

Of course, a lot of Doms aren't skilled managers, or even 'manage' the home life at all. A lot of the time it's the sub that has to step in with 'this needs to be done' and the Dom rubber stamps it. But that doesn't take away from the list of priorities; because the sub would have the same priorities, group, Dom, then herself, already. That's kind of the point of a sub wanting a Dom instead of a vanilla mate, really; they put themselves first, to the benefit of both partners.

Of course I'm considering lifestyle and not scening; scene ethics are much more tactical than the strategic ethics I've presented. For ex: making sure the sub is hydrated, understands what they need to about what's going on, checks the equipment for safety, etc.

< Message edited by DMFParadox -- 9/26/2008 7:07:07 AM >

_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)

Post #: 10

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 7:15:16 AM

DMFParadox

Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TabrisMaceth

Still being pretty new to all this, I kinda wonder about ethics and empathy, myself. I am most definitely a dom, but I also have a strong sense of ethics and an even stronger sense of empathy. I'm a little worried that if I ever find a sub, I'm going to totally puss out and go soft on her. "Punish me, Master! Spank me! I've been so bad! I...why did you lightly tap me, Master?"

-Tabris

Hm. You should watch some scenes at local play parties, and have some long conversations with subs, even ones that you wouldn't think fit your dynamic, about what they like. That will give you some confidence.

_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to TabrisMaceth)

Post #: 11

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 7:47:54 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

It is, perhaps, one of the hardest lessons of leadership to be able to extend yourself emotionally to another person that you will be required to discipline. For that very reason, old school leadership books routinely suggested not allowing yourself to get close to those you lead. That sort of thinking has pretty much gone the way of the dinosaur nowadays. The bottom line is NOBODY is going to follow their leader through the proverbial gates of hell when they perceive that leader as cold, aloof, and disconnected from them and their problems.

I empathize with my wife fully. It KILLS me when I have to punish her. That doesn't stop me from doing it. I simply recognize that as a part of the price I pay for being the dominant.

Insofar as restraint, there are a variety of restraints. If nothing else, the sub will restrain the dom by leaving the relationship at which point the dom can come here and post about how she's "not a twu sub". For me, I am restrained by the simple fact that I LOVE the woman and want the best for her. I acknowledge though, that in rare situations, what is best for her is "tough love". A sociopath does not see the people around him as ... well.. people. That is what distinguishes me from a sociopath.... I do.

What you're really hinting around at here is a simple question.... "Is being a dominant bad." The answer is equally simple.... "As a dominant, you are given some amount of authority by the submissive. How you use that authority defines you as a human being, for better or worse."

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to sravaka)

Post #: 12

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 8:46:19 AM

NihilusZero

Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka
1) Do dominants empathize with submissives? Or do they merely understand submissives well enough to know which buttons to push to get a particular/desired reaction?

The understanding is not merely a means by which to be a better button pusher. In any facet in life, developing a better understanding of another and/or striving for a more objective viewpoint leads to a burgeoning empathy. I don't think empathy needs to involve a switch of inner being (temporarily or not) as may seem suggested, though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka
If empathy is not part of the equation, what distinguishes dominants from more or less enlightened sociopaths?

At all times, a Dominant (IMHO) balances between making the decisions that are best for Him/Her and the decisions that are best for the relationship. To be able to do the latter comes back to that understanding from point 1. I don't think enlightened sociopaths would have the concern to actually cater to the latter at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka
2) I realize we all define dominant, submissive, master, slave, and numerous other terms in wildly divergent ways.... but I wonder: how/where does ethics figure in your definition of dominance? Not necessarily for yourself; just in general. In other words, is "do no harm," e.g., part and parcel of being a dominant? Or does dominance precede "do no harm" and need to be restrained accordingly?

Of all possible relationship dynamics, I think D/s/BDSM/WIITWD kind of shoves the "do no harm" bit to the side most. Which means some new foundation must be adopted instead of that variation of the commonly called 'golden rule'.

I see it as falling onto consent and, secondarily, the means by which to assess that someone's ability to consent is genuine, clear and capable. That second part is where tons of disagreements stem from, which can lead to disparate views or even segregative thinking...but that's another topic entirely.

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
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(in reply to sravaka)

Post #: 13

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 8:55:19 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
I see it as falling onto consent and, secondarily, the means by which to assess that someone's ability to consent is genuine, clear and capable. That second part is where tons of disagreements stem from

Very well put.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

Post #: 14

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 9:51:52 AM

SailingBum

Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

I have two big fuzzy questions I've been puzzling over for a long time, and thought I'd post them and see what happens.

2) I realize we all define dominant, submissive, master, slave, and numerous other terms in wildly divergent ways.... but I wonder: how/where does ethics figure in your definition of dominance? Not necessarily for yourself; just in general. In other words, is "do no harm," e.g., part and parcel of being a dominant? Or does dominance precede "do no harm" and need to be restrained accordingly?

--sravaka

To answer your questions one size does not fit all. Widly divergent answers.

BadOne

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to sravaka)

Post #: 15

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 10:20:44 AM

Diphon

Posts: 39
Joined: 5/6/2006
Status: offline

1. Of course I feel empathy for my slave, and would watch closely anyone who didn’t. She was a vanilla girl when I met her, and is now being trained to be my slave; she has traveled a very difficult road with me. Without being able to understand her thoughts and feeling, what was going on in her head it would have been impossible to get where we are now.

Button pushing has its place to. We where at the mall once and she got something stuck in her eye. She was struggling to dislodge it. I asked her if she wanted me to make her cry, and a bit puzzled said she did. So I ripped into her poking sharply at each of her insecurities and reduced her tears rather quickly. I asked her if it came out and looking up at me red eyes and trembling lips she nodded and I reassured her that I loved her, she was indeed beautiful and none of what I said was true. So sure knowing how to play a girl like a piano is great but without empathy to understand what you’re doing is a dangerous skill to have.

2. Ethics are very important to all parties involved not just dominants. I care very deeply for my girl and would give my life for her if called to do so. But beyond that she has placed a great deal of trust in me. Trust that I will see to her safety at all times, and see that she is taken care of properly and it would be ill advised to call that trust into question.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 16

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 10:21:30 AM

FRSguy

Posts: 653
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

Hello, all. I've been enjoying reading the discussions here for a while but this is the first time I'm venturing to post. Please don't hurt me.

I have two big fuzzy questions I've been puzzling over for a long time, and thought I'd post them and see what happens.

1) Do dominants empathize with submissives? Or do they merely understand submissives well enough to know which buttons to push to get a particular/desired reaction? I do, if I didnt then I would be what you would call a monster. Empathy is probably the most important variable in any social interaction. You have to remember we are talking about (at least my point of view) about the relationships between two individuals that are equal and have agreed on just a slightly different dynamic in there interactions. It in no way moves beyond that and it in no way suggests that one person has a greater value than another. No one looses any rights or privilages and can say no and go to hell at any time or renegotiate at any time like any other relationship. As far as knowing what buttons to push? It dosnt matter what type of relationship you are in you should know your SO inside and out.

"2) I realize we all define dominant, submissive, master, slave, and numerous other terms in wildly divergent ways.... but I wonder: how/where does ethics figure in your definition of dominance?" How does it not figure into the equation? Dominants are real people that are no different from anyone else. We just like to get are own way and are a little spoiled or at least like to be...lol. Just because you have the ability to do something does not mean that you have to do it. I am not affraid of the responsiblily of having someone love, trust and depend on me and my abilities but welcome the challenge of making my life and the lives of those around me more palatable. I really dont have any problem with a woman relying on me. I think when it comes to ethics I would be more to say that it is unethical for a man to be such a panzy ass whimp that he cant meet the challenges for being the head of a household and supporting the woman that make so many sacrafices to make life barable. In this respect I find submisives / slaves to be incredibly dignifying and deserving of our care, integrity as well as humility in there defense.

anywho... thats my stand point on it but that is compleatly just me.

(in reply to sravaka)

Post #: 17

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 12:15:19 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FRSguy

quote:

I think when it comes to ethics I would be more to say that it is unethical for a man to be such a panzy ass whimp that he cant meet the challenges for being the head of a household and supporting the woman that make so many sacrafices to make life barable.

I hope I'm not the only one to find your dismissal of men who choose not to be the head of the household as offensive.
And following that logic should mean that anyone, male or female, who is not the head of household is someone lesser in your view.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to FRSguy)

Post #: 18

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 12:27:15 PM

NihilusZero

Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FRSguy
I think when it comes to ethics I would be more to say that it is unethical for a man to be such a panzy ass whimp that he cant meet the challenges for being the head of a household and supporting the woman that make so many sacrafices to make life barable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FRSguy
In this respect I find submisives / slaves to be incredibly dignifying and deserving of our care, integrity as well as humility in there defense.

Just not the male submissives, eh?

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to FRSguy)

Post #: 19

RE: Doms & empathy; doms & ethics - 9/26/2008 12:35:39 PM

SirDominic

Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline

The question is really not what others do. The question is what YOU would want to have done to YOU. As others have already said there are all types from one extreme to the other in how empathic Dominants can be, or not. And all types of subs who enjoy one extreme to the other as well. If you believe, for instance, that "do no harm" must proceed dominance for the relationship to satisfy you, look for someone who believes as you do.

There is little that is outright right or wrong. As long as Dom and sub agree on the basics, the rest can be negotiated.

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to sravaka)

Post #: 20

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