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A lot of my friends have been asking me about the econo... - 9/28/2008 3:42:28 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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So I came up with the below for a very good friend of mine.  She was curious how I (and the economy) was doing....

She asked me...."Is this bail out going to fix the problem"....and...."will it help your business?"

And so.....

"Is the bail out going to fix everything....and will it help your business?"

"It will do some things well, but largely it's a wash as to what it actually does, and ultimately it won't solve the immediate (36 months) problem, which is the tightening of credit.  

It's complicated for most, but the basics are: Banks loan money.    They do this through something called "reserve requirements". 

This means that banks and lending institutions are required to keep "in reserve" a specific amount of the money they lend out.    Let's say this is 10%.

So, if they have 10 dollars, they can loan out 100. 

They (banks) don't manufacture money out of thin air (although the federal reserve does), they borrow it from the federal reserve or other banks at what are called "overnight rates", which is typically the same rate as what's called "the discount rate", or what the federal reserve lends money to other banks (currently 2%).  

There is another rate structure, called LIBOR, or "London Interbank Offered Rate", also commonly called the London Interbank Overnight Rate, since it's the worlds official "interbank" (bank to bank) lending rate.  

Essentially, it's the rate that all other banks typically lend to each other at, and it almost always is within a fraction of the federal discount rate (again, currently 2%).

It's also the rate wherein which many ARM (variable rate) mortgages are written on top of.  (This is a problem!). 

As of this moment the LIBOR rate (bank to bank loan rate) is almost double the federal discount rate. The difference is called "the spread".

When the spread is so opposed to the federal discount rate (since regardless of other govt. rates around the world, the US Dollar is what's called a "reserve currency", which means most people buy and sell money and goods based on US rates/valuations) it's an indication that banks aren't willing to lend money to each other.  

In fact, while the current short term LIBOR is above 4%, current loans are taking place (bank to bank) worldwide at rates in excess of 8%.  

Why is this happening?  

Because banks lend against assets, whether to you and I over a car or a home, or to banks, against assets, in their case, loans outstanding, owed to the bank in question...ergo, an asset. Except that the loans held and in question, are suspect. 

So much so that there is a requirement by the SEC that demands that loan portfolios are "marked to market".  

I owe you 100 dollars.  The payment due each month is 1 dollar.  I'm a car dealer, and the rumor is I'm going broke and will likely default on my loan to you.  You want to sell that loan and get out of it. 

You determine that 50 bucks today is much more valuable to you than 100 dollars (assumed, and it would appear...somewhat risky) at some later date.

I still haven't missed a payment and assure you in writing that I won't....but I sell cars, and all the other banks in town that could buy that loan from you have heard rumors that I've been letting salesmen go, and....there are now 40 new cars on the lot where there once were 240....clearly all signs are that I won't be in business much longer.  

So, the market (other banks) come to you and say "I'll give you 50 dollars for that 100 dollar loan (asset). You sell the loan and now have 50 dollars. You're quite happy.

Why?  Because you now have 50 very real dollars.

The other fellow has an asset he values at 50 dollars, but it's paying off as though it was still a 100 dollar asset...and hopefully for a very long while to come.  

The loan previously was on your books at 100 dollars (which, remember, the SEC made you write down to 50 dollars...except...that loan wasn't actual cash, which meant no other banks would loan you even 20 bucks against it), which you could previously borrow 1,000 dollars against (10 to 1, remember...the reserve requirements?) and therefore loan out. Now you have 50 real dollars worth of real assets to borrow against...to loan out.  

In the above, the guy that bought that loan from you is the federal govt. 

The bank (you) is every other financial institution on the planet that has or will sell distressed loans to create a viable asset.  

Today they have a questionable asset, valued at 50 bucks (because the feds require that you "mark to market"), even though it's paying off as though it was still 100 dollars.  

But you're not in the business of being a nice guy...your job is to loan money, and you can't borrow enough reserves against your questionable assets...because no one can be sure that asset is in fact actually worth a dollar, hence your assets are questionable enough that the other financial institutions now don't trust YOUR (a banks) ability to repay.

Hence why LIBOR increases, even as world asset prices and discount window rates decrease.  

Once the bad asset is gone (replaced by a good one of the same value), banks will begin loaning to each other (albeit against a significantly smaller asset base) and loans, while much more restrictive, and only to folks with exceptional credit scores and histories, will become available again (I'm guessing we'll begin to see credit flowing somewhat better by next year about this time...October 2009).  

The reason why banks aren't eager to loan money to each other right now (which is where they get the money to loan to you and I) is...they simply can't validate exactly what the asset is worth. 

So...it's worth...less.  

Once the feds buy it, giving the bank in question a quantifiable asset to loan against (green cash), they can then borrow...and at rates that will be distinctly below those offered today.  

But here's the rub....  

Everyone watching the news thinks that this deal makes the problem go away...and the facts are, the banks still end up with a worth....less asset.  

Which means they have less to borrow against, and with less to borrow against, they have less to loan out.   

With less to loan out, to be able to pay their bills (their overhead established back in the day when they made twice as much...only months ago), they have to charge a lot more to stay even.

This makes credit vastly more expensive for the average little guy on the street, meaning he'll end up borrowing less

This means he's also buying less as well.  

70% of our GDP (our economy) comes from debt.    The ability to borrow to build, invest, etc. also comes from this same debt. (It was 24% of the economy 35 years ago).  

If the average business guy has to charge more (because his debt costs more as well as he now moves less of his product {requiring him to charge all the more}...but still has the same overhead), costs go up.

His costs go up.  

And with every notch up in margin he requires...he loses a few more customers.    Requiring ever more margin once again.  

Is the bail out plan going to work?  Yes.  For what it's intended to fix, absolutely.  But it's not intended to help the average guy on the street (even though that's what the papers will continue telling you).  

Will it save the economy?  Unfortunately not.  But, as the Prez said, it is better than doing nothing.  

The economy must go through some gut wrenching changes over the next 5 years, this (bail out) will make the pain only slightly less.  

Imagine we've just been in an incredibly horrifying car accident.  Many people died.  6 survived, all of them with multiple and severely broken bones

6 called home.  

The bail out is not a Star Trek scanner where everyone is taken to sick bay and in minutes each have brand new bone structure created by Dr Scott and in 2 hours are back at their posts, fully recovered.  

The bail out is 3 single 500 mg aspirin pills. 

There are no Tylenol #4's to be found...just these 3 aspirin.

For 6 very incredibly, in some case horrifically, damaged people.  

For the 3 that get the aspirin, rest assured, those 3 are very happy they aren't the 3 that didn't get aspirin.

But the aspirin's going to wear off very quickly (by about February of 2009 as best as I can tell) and while all 6 are expected to fully recover and heal....only 3 got temporary relief, and pretty soon even they won't be able to disguise the pain any longer.  

Will it help my (or other) business?  Probably".  

Carry some aspirin.  

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 9/28/2008 4:24:18 PM >
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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 9/28/2008 3:57:28 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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Duplicate....(never mind )

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 9/28/2008 4:17:01 PM >

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 9/29/2008 7:37:38 AM   
Termyn8or


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Interesting analogy, but you forgot to include the six more people getting wheeled in in the door with similar injuries a few minutes later.

Plus I hate you now, the doctor was called Bones, Scotty was the engineer. Now I can't remember the name of the character. I think the actor's name was Deforest Kelly, but Bones actually had a name, and now I can't think of it. Thanks alot.

T

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 9/29/2008 8:27:44 AM   
bipolarber


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Dr. Leonard McCoy

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 9/29/2008 6:16:33 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Interesting analogy, but you forgot to include the six more people getting wheeled in the door with similar injuries a few minutes later.


Indeed I did.

I didn't want to scare people.

(There's more coming).


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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 9/29/2008 7:26:35 PM   
TNstepsout


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Good explanation. Thanks so much. 

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 9/29/2008 7:36:59 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

Good explanation. Thanks so much. 


You're quite welcome.

A lot of folks are confused.

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 9/29/2008 9:19:52 PM   
kinkbound


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If the banks can lend out 10 times the money that they have on reserves (of which I agree), how is it that they do not create money out of thin air?

When Mr & Mrs John Q Public goes to the bank for a $200K mortgage, does not their signatures on the note create the $200K?

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 9/30/2008 5:14:46 AM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkbound

If the banks can lend out 10 times the money that they have on reserves (of which I agree), how is it that they do not create money out of thin air?

When Mr & Mrs John Q Public goes to the bank for a $200K mortgage, does not their signatures on the note create the $200K?



"Reserve" requirements are the dollars that the federal govt. mandates by law they must keep available at any given time.

I used 10% as an example. JP Morgan, Citigroup and those types of financial institutions had different requirements (because they weren't part of FDIC) and were loaning at 50 to 1 (2% reserve) or even higher.

If the reserve requirement is 10%, you have to keep 10 bucks available (or in "liquid" form such as shorter term loans), at which point you can borrow up to your reserve requirements, or in the case of a 10% reserve....10 to 1, or....90 dollars for every 10 held.

Ergo, you have 10, you can borrow 90 and loan out that same 90.

It isn't manufactured out of thin air, it's been borrowed from the federal reserve.

Where does the federal reserve get it to loan out?

It's more complicated than what I'm describing at the moment, but essentially....they simply print it.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 9/30/2008 5:17:11 AM >

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 9/30/2008 8:59:08 AM   
kinkbound


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When John and Mary Public take out that $200K mortgage at their local bank, that $200K wasn't in the bank in the first place. So doesn't the newly signed note create the $200K? And if so, isn't the local bank actually creating money, and not the Federal Reserve?

And if indeed, this is what happens, is the local bank somehow indebted to the Federal Reserve for any portion of this $200K or for any of the future interest that it generates?

I'm just trying to connect the dots of your OP comment:

"They (banks) don't manufacture money out of thin air (although the federal reserve does), they borrow it from the federal reserve or other banks at what are called "overnight rates", which is typically the same rate as what's called "the discount rate", or what the federal reserve lends money to other banks (currently 2%)".  

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 9/30/2008 9:23:47 AM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkbound


When John and Mary Public take out that $200K mortgage at their local bank, that $200K wasn't in the bank in the first place. Correct.  The lending institution borrowed it from another source (often the federal reserve, as often from another bank or financial institution).  So doesn't the newly signed note create the $200K? No.  The act of borrowing it from another institution created the "availability" of funds...not the creation of them.  And if so, isn't the local bank actually creating money, and not the Federal Reserve?  See above.

And if indeed, this is what happens, is the local bank somehow indebted to the Federal Reserve for any portion of this $200K or for any of the future interest that it generates?

The local bank is indebted to the institution that it borrowed the money from, for the entire original principal amount as well as interest due, at whatever interest rate they negotiated for said loan...hopefully for less than what they agreed to loan it to you for (oddly enough, not always the case).

I'm just trying to connect the dots of your OP comment:

"They (banks) don't manufacture money out of thin air (although the federal reserve does), they borrow it from the federal reserve or other banks at what are called "overnight rates", which is typically the same rate as what's called "the discount rate", or what the federal reserve lends money to other banks (currently 2%)".  


< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 9/30/2008 9:25:40 AM >

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 9/30/2008 9:42:50 AM   
kinkbound


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I'm still not connecting the dots. If what you've explained is true, how is it that a local bank can loan up to 10 times its deposits, if they must borrow that $200K elsewhere to make the loan?

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 9/30/2008 5:01:59 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkbound

I'm still not connecting the dots. If what you've explained is true, how is it that a local bank can loan up to 10 times its deposits, if they must borrow that $200K elsewhere to make the loan?


You're a bank.

You have 10 dollars in deposits.  You can loan 10 dollars (actually, according to federal reserve laws, you can loan 9).

The interest you charge for a loan (let's say, to me) is 8%.  You can borrow from the federal reserve at 2% (the current "discount rate").  You are only allowed by law to borrow 10 times what you have in deposits (your reserves).

This gives you 90 (more) dollars to loan out.

You now can loan a total of 90 dollars at 8%, which costs you 2%.

This is called "profit".

If everyone pays you back, you make 6%.

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 9/30/2008 10:05:03 PM   
kinkbound


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Here's something I found tonight that helped clarify how it all works:
 
Currently when banks receive a sum of money, they are able to lend out ten times that amount. For every $1 that comes into the bank, they can lend out $10.This is called the money multiplier and it is based on the required reserve ratio.
 
The required reserve ratio is the percentage of the total deposits the bank recieves that must be held in reserve and cannot be lent out. The required reserve ratio is determined by the Federal Reserve Bank (FRB). Whatever is left over after the reserve has been met can be lent out.
 
To figure out the current money multiplier, use the following formula:
 
1 / Required Reserve Ratio = Money Multiplier
 
Below you will find a basic example of how banks create money, in this example the Federal Reserve Requirement is 10%. That means that the money multiplier is 10, so the banks can lend out $10 for every dollar they receive.
 
Example:
 
John deposits $10,000 into his checking account at Bank A.
Bank A
Deposit: $10,000
Reserve (10%): $1,000
Lendable Amount: $9,000

 
Mary borrows $9,000 from Bank A and buys a car. The car dealer then deposits $9,000 into their account at Bank B.
Bank B
Deposit: $9,000
Reserve (10%): $900
Lendable Amount: $8,100

 
Mark borrows $8,100 from Bank B and has surgery. The doctor then deposits $8,100 into his account at Bank C.
Bank C
Deposit: $8,100
Reserve (10%): $810
Lendable Amount: $7,290

 
Sue borrows $7,290 and shops at Versace. Versace then deposits $7,290 into their account at Bank D.
Bank D
Deposit: $7,290
Reserve (10%): $729
Lendable Amount: $6,561

 
Kim borrows $6,561 from Bank D and pays off her credit card, the Credit Card Company then deposits $6,561 into their account at Bank E.
Bank E
Deposit: $6,561
Reserve (10%): $656.10
Lendable Amount: $5,904.90

 
And so on, throughout the system.

When M1 is measured, and the Federal Reserve Bank totals the checking account balances in the entire system, the original $10,000 deposit will have created a total of $100,000 of money.

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 9/30/2008 11:10:40 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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I remember when, way back in the late 80s, everyone watched the money supply numbers. Primarily M3, IIRC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply
There are some very interesting graphs here. Look at the graph of the currency component. The point at which the slope of the line begins trending upward more steeply corresponds with Nixon's unilateral withdrawal from the Bretton Woods agreement. Republican dogma dictated that the dollar be pegged to... nothing. That, IMO was the beginning of the current crisis.

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 10/1/2008 12:36:42 AM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I remember when, way back in the late 80s, everyone watched the money supply numbers. Primarily M3, IIRC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply
There are some very interesting graphs here. Look at the graph of the currency component. The point at which the slope of the line begins trending upward more steeply corresponds with Nixon's unilateral withdrawal from the Bretton Woods agreement. Republican dogma dictated that the dollar be pegged to... nothing. That, IMO was the beginning of the current crisis.


Wow,and in 30 years neither democrats or republicans had a problem with inflating the currency with their new baseless money system. I just don't see how you don't blame democrats as well. They've had plenty of chance to bring this up in thirty years.

Patiently waiting for enough to realize almost all republicans and democrats are pure shit.

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 10/1/2008 4:35:58 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I remember when, way back in the late 80s, everyone watched the money supply numbers. Primarily M3, IIRC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply
There are some very interesting graphs here. Look at the graph of the currency component. The point at which the slope of the line begins trending upward more steeply corresponds with Nixon's unilateral withdrawal from the Bretton Woods agreement. Republican dogma dictated that the dollar be pegged to... nothing. That, IMO was the beginning of the current crisis.


Wow,and in 30 years neither democrats or republicans had a problem with inflating the currency with their new baseless money system. I just don't see how you don't blame democrats as well. They've had plenty of chance to bring this up in thirty years.

Patiently waiting for enough to realize almost all republicans and democrats are pure shit.



Need2....I didn't read a preference for Republican or Democratic bias in that, rather....that the money we use was debased...and it was debased in Nixon's term.

Nixon did what had to be done at the time (in his belief, based on various and talented advisers at his side).

History doesn't yet show that he was wrong....only that at that moment in time, the dollar lost its footing...and by virtue of its release from basis, i.e., gold.

Since then others, Democrats have debased it further.

But there is no question...if you want to follow an arc, growing gently right along side and in tandem with inflation, the growth of money exploded directly on a parallel course with the separation from gold, as if within hours of the decision to do so.

It just so happens it was a Republican that did it.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 10/1/2008 4:36:54 PM >

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 10/1/2008 4:49:54 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

Republican dogma dictated that the dollar be pegged to... nothing.


LOL, I guess, I see that as blaming republicans and not democrats. My view is both Repubs and Demos, rejoiced in their new found power to spend, spend, spend, without having to beg for taxes. I mean seriously, again, if the democrats didn't share the "Dogma" wouldn't they have tried to oppose it, afterward, at some point in thirty years.

Anyway, Eye of the Beholder I guess.

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 10/1/2008 7:01:40 PM   
pahunkboy


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the ratio is 30 to 1 for investment banks/hedge funds.

Lookie, I have some good news for you!  I left you  a stack of invesable cash. You will find it on your kitche table.

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RE: A lot of my friends have been asking me about the e... - 10/1/2008 7:13:08 PM   
UncleNasty


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I'm not up to reading the entire thread again but didn't someone say money isn't created "out of thin air?"

Google a Federal Reserve publication titled "Modern Moeny Mechanics." Look to, I believe, page 6 or 7. You'll see the Fed has made the claim that they do create money out of thin air.

It has always been a rigged game. It is like playing Monopoly against an opponent that has a virtually endless supply of the funny money.

Uncle Nasty

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