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Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 12:17:41 AM

Aneirin

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1064453/Three-arrested-murder-Barclays-boss-beaten-death-tried-defend-homeless-Lithuanian-man.html

Have a go hero these people seem to be called, a distasteful term for what I believe is a caring person who seeks to help the weak. The weak as in those who are in desparate need of help in a desperate situation, quite often involving violence.

The papers seem full of these stories, stories of people who have died whilst coming to the aid of others. We all know the risks involved in doing this, but sometimes one can find themselves stepping in without thinking, something inside of us says, 'No way, this has to stop'. I don't think with these caring people it is a conscious thing, they just do what they feel they have to do, but, would'nt you ?

It is very easy to say, given what we know of the possibilities of confronting another, the possibility of the assailant being armed or drugged up, many later said they knew that, but stepped in anyway and did the best they could.

At one time in this country the 'stepping in' was a common thing, but not now, many it seems are content to walk on by with eyes to the front whilst some unfortunate person is getting the life kicked out of them. Oh, that is what we have a police force for, but they are overstretched, and quite often not willing to join in the afray, they know the risks and without back up by force of numbers, rarely will they step in.

So, what about you, would you step in to help another in need, or as many do, walk on by, blot another's plight from your mind and convince yourself it is none of your business ?

Maybe it is that a thug has no fear, because there is no fear of anyone helping, perhaps this is why violent crime is so common, a thug, drugs, alcohol or not, has no fear of others. The hue and the cry is long since dead, at least in this country. Maybe if people did take an interest, crime would actually fall ?

Should we get involved and attempt to right the wrongs we see, or just convince ourselves that that job is for the police to do, as that is what they are paid for ?

Would you be a 'hero' and have a go ?

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RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 12:20:50 AM

Arpig

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I would like to think I would..I have in the past

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RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 12:21:11 AM

GreedyTop

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if I see someone in distress, and I know I can do so.. I will. Fuck the laws (here, we have the "Good Samaritan" law.. (I think you can google it).

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RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 1:41:19 AM

TabrisMaceth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop
if I see someone in distress, and I know I can do so.. I will. Fuck the laws

Amen to that, sister! I tell myself that someone has to call the police...but then I remember I'm a defiant little mo-fo who wants the world to be a certain way and I'm more than willing to fight for it.

Just Wikied "Good Samaritan law", by the way:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law

-Tabris

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RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 2:26:41 AM

RCdc

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Yes I would and I have. No I don't believe anyone 'should' do anything. It is personal choice. And no - many people do not simply walk on by. There are more cases where people step in than where they do not.
And no I don't think it's just up to the police - they aren't omnipresent.

Doesn't the Samaritains Law only cover injury due to an accident or malicious intent? It wouldn't be relevant help to someone in the case of the above?

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 10/1/2008 2:27:47 AM >

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RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 2:50:56 AM

Vendaval

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Much of what I would do would be dependent on the number of attackers and what kinds if any weapons were involved. Tackeling a unarmed purse snatcher is far different from getting into the middle of a knife fight or a shooting. Using a fire extinguisher or pepper spray might slow down a fist fight too.

Calling 911 for the police would be a definate response and screaming for assistance would be done of course. Another good course of action is taking photos with a cell phone or any other camera for prosecution purposes. And keep your CPR and First Aid instruction current and have those cards with you in case you are questioned about any assistance you provide.

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RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 3:40:20 AM

LadyEllen

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I'm reminded of an overheard conversation a police superintendent was having with someone; "we could stop 90% of violent incidents, if we banned alcohol and legalised cannabis. I've never been to a violent incident involving smokers, but nearly every one I've been to involves someone being drunk"

Interventions by well meaning people are all very well, more police is all very well. But unless we can solve the underlying cultural and socio-economic problems that are causing all this - ranging from anti-social behaviour through to casual assault and murder, its a losing battle. And in the meantime, the scale of the problem is reflected by the paltry sentences possible in today's overcrowded justice system - which do nothing to deter further offending or promote respect for society in general or people in particular.

People who have nothing to lose have nothing to fear.

E

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RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 6:29:05 AM

rexrgisformidoni

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I've broken the arm and leg of a man who was beating on his girlfriend. Police said it looked like he fell down.

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RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 11:07:23 AM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

I've broken the arm and leg of a man who was beating on his girlfriend. Police said it looked like he fell down.

You are lucky then, an understanding police force who knew what was what, either that or they could not investigate their way out of a paper bag.

Here, someone that did that, would find themselves most likely facing charges, especially if you have no previous, (easy bust -been there on that, anyway good for stastistics). We have a law of reasonable force, and that is the amount of force to be applied to deter someone, a law which is a bit of a wavy line, as what is reasonable force is open to a person's interpretation, and an interpretation which should not be altered by fear and adrenhaline effects. The law makers forget in confronting a person with the desire to stop them, there is most likely going to be a heightened sense of awareness, or at least that numb feeling.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Post #: 9

RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 11:26:22 AM

hizgeorgiapeach

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Having a CCL, and generally carrying when I'm out of the house (yes, especially in certain neighborhoods or times of day) it becomes a bit more...... Complicated.

Due to the very Nature of CC laws in Oklahoma, and the use of Deadly Force, it makes it very sticky for me to think about the question "would I help someone I didn't know whom I saw being attacked on the street by a gang?" - the scenario as it was in the link of the OP. If *I am being attacked, or a Family Member is being attacked, use of deadly force is considered warrented, so long as I believe my (or their) life is in imminant jeapordy. However, I always have to weigh the possibility of being disarmed against the likelihood that even a Threat of deadly force will remedy the situation - even against myself. When I'm out Without a weapon, it's more likely that my dialing 911 and taking note facial features, clothing, car tag numbers, etc is going to help more than me Physically trying to do something.

When it comes to rendering First Aid or acting in the capacity of a First Responder for Medical assistance, I don't hesitate if I know I am the most qualified on the scene. If I'm not the most qualified, I leave the active first aid to those who are more qualified than myself while calling for professional assistance. I've taken sufficient first aid and first responder training in the past to have a good idea in a hurry whether it's beyond my limited skills, and whether I'll likely do more harm than good if I try to do something.

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RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 12:55:54 PM

Rule

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I have walked by when it was none of my business.

I do generally, recruiting additional manpower in the elevator, get out of this "apartment" building when I hear a girl cry out. Usually I cannot find them. Once it was a pretty girl and her pretty boyfriend and she was weeping vehemently; years later I fathomed the reason: he had probably told her that he wanted fresh meat and was no longer interested in her.
Once at five o'clock in the morning it was some youth repeatedly punching his pregnant girlfriend in the stomach. He outmatched me, so I did not even try to fight. I distracted him for a moment and she ran away - but I suspect he eventually caught up with her.

I am a coward.

< Message edited by Rule -- 10/1/2008 12:56:36 PM >

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RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 12:59:52 PM

rexrgisformidoni

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

I've broken the arm and leg of a man who was beating on his girlfriend. Police said it looked like he fell down.

You are lucky then, an understanding police force who knew what was what, either that or they could not investigate their way out of a paper bag.

Here, someone that did that, would find themselves most likely facing charges, especially if you have no previous, (easy bust -been there on that, anyway good for stastistics). We have a law of reasonable force, and that is the amount of force to be applied to deter someone, a law which is a bit of a wavy line, as what is reasonable force is open to a person's interpretation, and an interpretation which should not be altered by fear and adrenhaline effects. The law makers forget in confronting a person with the desire to stop them, there is most likely going to be a heightened sense of awareness, or at least that numb feeling.

I knew every cop on the scene...and as corrupt as it sounds was hunting and fishing friends with three of them. we didn't see anything.

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Post #: 12

RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 1:11:47 PM

Vendaval

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In the US, we have a "Castle Law" regarding the use of deadly force protecting yourself, your family and home.
The specifics of the law differ from state to state. There is also a "stand your ground" law in certain states.

A good explanation is found on Wikipedia -

"A Castle Doctrine (also known as a Castle Law or a Defense of Habitation Law) is an American legal concept derived from English Common Law, which designates one's place of residence (or, in some states, any place legally occupied, such as one's car or place of work) as a place in which one enjoys protection from illegal trespassing and violent attack. It then goes on to give a person the legal right to use deadly force to defend that place (his/her "castle"), and/or any other innocent persons legally inside it, from violent attack or an intrusion which may lead to violent attack. In a legal context, therefore, use of deadly force which actually results in death may be defended as justifiable homicide under the Castle Doctrine."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine

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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 2:12:43 PM

hizgeorgiapeach

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The problem with Castle Law, Ven, is that it is rather limited in it's scope - as to where, specifically, it can be applied. Many states also have clauses within the concept of "castle law" that you have to percieve yourself to be in iminant danger of death to use deadly force even Within your own home. Fortuately, Oklahoma's "Make My Day" law - the version of Castle Law on the books in this state - is a bit more vague than some others.

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RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 2:15:26 PM

lazarus1983

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Just as the threat of lawsuits looms a disparaging shadow over everything else in this country, I think that it stops us from doing good deeds. There's always that one that has to ruin it for everyone else.

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RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 2:24:14 PM

Bethnai

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I don't like that term.

Yep, I sure would.

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RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 2:41:51 PM

Vendaval

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Hello georgiapeach,

I seem to remember in a previous discussion on Castle Law that someone living in the South, either you or slaveboy perhaps, mentioned that women were allowed to use greater force to stop an intruder? Let me know if that is correct or not, most likely that only applies to certain states.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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Post #: 17

RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 3:26:13 PM

Alumbrado

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We do not have any such thing as 'The Castle Law' or a 'Stand Your Ground Law' in the US no matter how many times those catchy sounding phrases are printed in the papers or on the internet...(they are malapropisms created by the media and uninformed gossip, just like the 'Make My Day Law').

What we do have are varying degrees of interpretation of the bedrock concept that no one can be legally compelled to accept being the victim of a murder or a criminal non-consensual battery... i.e. the right to self defense.

That right is often misapprehended as a right to kill or hurt others and claim self defense where no reasonable threshold existed.

There can be a big difference between actions taken in defense of one's own life, and stepping into the middle of violence between strangers.

And neither the castle doctrine (which has nothing to do with gender) or the Good Samaritan laws have any bearing on the actions described in the OP.

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RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 3:33:39 PM

hizgeorgiapeach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Hello georgiapeach,

I seem to remember in a previous discussion on Castle Law that someone living in the South, either you or slaveboy perhaps, mentioned that women were allowed to use greater force to stop an intruder? Let me know if that is correct or not, most likely that only applies to certain states.

I vaguely recall the other discussion you're refering to. I think it was SB that mentioned something about that. Although Oklahoma law allows women a bit more leaway than it does guys, it's still rather stringent on when someone can/can't consider "deadly" force to be appropriate. It's something that they spent an inordinate amount of time on during the course I took for my CCL. (the course is required for everyone other than active duty military and active duty leo) Since over half the class was female, there were questions raised as to what the current standards were at that point (it's been a couple of years ago, now, since I took the course - I'm due for a refresher and requalifying for my CCL sometime right after the new year.) I'll take a look at some of the state's websites that I have access to, and see if I can't find specific reference for what the Current standard is.

It's always a bit of a sticky question, really. Is it any of my business? If I interfere, how much danger am I putting myself into knowingly, and how much Further risk am I potentially creating for the original victim? If I do nothing, and that person Dies, will there blood be effectively on my hands/conscience - assuming I could have helped but didn't? If I were the one needing such help, would I want others to keep their noses short?

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Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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RE: Have a go Hero ? - 10/1/2008 3:36:30 PM

Vendaval

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That would be great if you could post some of the CCL laws. And I hear you about having to decide what to do and how much to intervene. What will happen to those dependent on you if you get hurt is a major consideration.

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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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Post #: 20

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