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Art or Science - 12/4/2005 9:15:21 AM

ExistentialSteel

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This Sunday morning over leisurely coffee and breakfast, I was watching Fox News and saw where a mother had made her 14 year old son wear a humiliating sign saying he was bad because he didn’t go to school…more or less. Now was this beneficial training? Was this humiliation going to change him for the better? Probably not, but I’m sure the mother thought it would. Where did she get this idea? From hearing about others using this way to shame someone.

Having a mind that runs overtime thinking of D/s, I thought of the same ideas in D/s. Many will follow a script training a sub from techniques they have been told are right. It is the science of D/s they are told.

Well, I submit that there is an art to D/s. I notice some very knowledgeable posters who analytically dissect posts quoting this and that from psychology works basically saying that things can be worked best if you follow the science of D/s.

People are a mix of feelings. The way I feel about a sub is going to influence what I do and the way she reacts. She will know if I care about her on some level, no matter what training technique I use. If I don’t care about her, I’m developing someone that I would not find appealing. Now granted this is only my view, but I’ve been known to view art for hours without ever once thinking of the type paint used.

< Message edited by ExistentialSteel -- 12/4/2005 9:16:54 AM >

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

Post #: 1

RE: Art or Science - 12/4/2005 9:42:20 AM

Padriag

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Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

Well, I submit that there is an art to D/s. I notice some very knowledgeable posters who analytically dissect posts quoting this and that from psychology works basically saying that things can be worked best if you follow the science of D/s.

Speaking as one of those people you're probably referring too... why do you think it can't be or isn't both?

Psychology is a tool to help understand a human behavior, no more and no less. Having that tool in your "kit" puts you at an advantage. If it helps think of it this way.

In my job I'm a craftsman, I'm a decorative painter. If you hire a regular house painter to paint your house you get a simple color on the wall... very 2 dimensional. If you hire me to paint your house, you may get venetian plaster, or hand painted designs, maybe a nice faux red morrocan leather, etc. You get a much more complex result because you hired a craftsman. Part of that is because I took classes (and still do) and learned things about paint and painting that your average house painter never learns. That gives me the ability to do things an ordinary house painter can't do... it puts me at an advantage.

For me, my knowledge of psychology is the same kind of thing. It helps me understand submissives better, their needs, why they react to things this way or that, etc. I share that on these forums because I think others might also benefit from what I've learned. Just like I sometimes share tips with house painters I happen to know. Sometimes I learn a thing or two from a very experience house painter. Sometimes I learn from others in this lifestyle who don't know the first thing about psychology, but they've learned a lot about human behavior through years of experience. My goal is to use that in being more of a craftsman as a master, to not just train a slave, but to create something truly remarkable. And possibly paint a slave in a nice faux red morrocan leather.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 2

RE: Art or Science - 12/4/2005 9:47:06 AM

ExistentialSteel

Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
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Honestly, I'm not knocking anyone's style, but when you follow a scripted training program both of you are going to be disappointed at every setback. To get her to the slave status is going to take time. Before she lives the lifestyle on some level, she is going to go through various stages. Once she arrives, she doesn’t need motivation, she craves the lifestyle and we are both going to be happier.

So how do I get her to slave status? Know how I started this by shunning scientific psychological theories? Okay, I’ll backtrack and mention one. See how flexible and responding to the situation I can be? In developmental psychology it is noted that people have certain common traits before they change. People in general feel like they have weaknesses that can be cured by a transition. The sub wants to be transformed, but is going to fail often during the transition. I realize she will fail as she tries. She is going to feel bad because of her weaknesses. But, see, I know this and am not going to be upset when the script is not followed. I reward the small steps she makes.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 3

RE: Art or Science - 12/4/2005 10:10:50 AM

Padriag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

Honestly, I'm not knocking anyone's style, but when you follow a scripted training program both of you are going to be disappointed at every setback. To get her to the slave status is going to take time. Before she lives the lifestyle on some level, she is going to go through various stages. Once she arrives, she doesn’t need motivation, she craves the lifestyle and we are both going to be happier.

But where did you get the idea that those of us who use psychology were "following a script"?

quote:

So how do I get her to slave status? Know how I started this by shunning scientific psychological theories? Okay, I’ll backtrack and mention one. See how flexible and responding to the situation I can be? In developmental psychology it is noted that people have certain common traits before they change. People in general feel like they have weaknesses that can be cured by a transition. The sub wants to be transformed, but is going to fail often during the transition. I realize she will fail as she tries. She is going to feel bad because of her weaknesses. But, see, I know this and am not going to be upset when the script is not followed. I reward the small steps she makes.

Sounds like to me you just used an very basic understanding of psychology to better equip yourself to deal with training a slave... which leaves me wondering why then you are apparently eschewing psychology? I'm not clear on where you get this idea that the "very knowledgeable posters who analytically dissect posts quoting this and that from psychology" from your original post (which I note you've since changed since I replied to it) are following a script? It would help me to understand your post if you can clarify that point. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say D/s is a science... though certainly I agree with Skinner in that psychology ought to be a science of human behavior (and to often if falls short of that, at least to the standards of other sciences).

Let me put it this way, you used the example of admiring art without thinking about painting techniques. That's fine if you're only admiring. But most artists who paint portraits study anatomy among other things in order to become better portait painters... they use science to improve their art. Many artists also learn a bit of chemistry to better understand how pigments blend and react, what types of binders work best in different situations, how to control drying times for various effects, etc. There is a science to art... you may not see all that standing in an art gallery, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. Nor does it mean those artist follow a script when painting. They may understand perspective, proportions, shading, the sciences behind those things; they may have studied anatomy to better understand how muscles affect the shape of the body in different positions; they may know which bones affect the shape of the body and which do not. They may use all that scientific knowledge to create a better painting, but that isn't following a script though it certainly guides the choices they make.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 4

RE: Art or Science - 12/4/2005 10:40:32 AM

KnightofMists

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Creating Art and Enjoying Art is two very different things. I have and do enjoy the presence of other incredible relationships that are from various lifestyles. When such relationship are in presences... I am not so concerned on how they created such beauty between them... it is without question an artistic beauty to be enjoyed. However, when I do engage such people involved in such artistically beautiful relationships... they often state techinques and thoughts that have a strong basis in the science of human behaviors and not just about free expressions of love. It attribute to these relationships that they take some grounded scientific thougths incorporate their own individualistic creativity and vision to move a relationship of something that can be enjoyed and admired by others. It is not an Or question.... it is bring Art and Science together to make that beauty.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 5

RE: Art or Science - 12/4/2005 11:25:05 AM

ExistentialSteel

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Padriag, the only change I made in my original post was one minute after posting it I made a slight change. See the times of 12:15 and 12:16? I see that you posted much later. Am I missing something?

My second post was a response to your fine post of why can't you do both. I was admitting that, yes, I do both to a degree. My whole point is that you can't follow a plan from BDSM 101 in every situation.

As far as my painting analogy, I will give you that some find beauty in throwing paint on a canvas, wiping it off with a cloth and selling the cloth.I choose to dip the brush into my own heart and paint with my emotions.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 6

RE: Art or Science - 12/4/2005 12:26:30 PM

Padriag

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Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

Padriag, the only change I made in my original post was one minute after posting it I made a slight change. See the times of 12:15 and 12:16? I see that you posted much later. Am I missing something?

Apparently I saw your post just after you made it and wrote my reply while you were changing it. I didn't see the change til I'd finished and posted my reply so made a note of it in case it made any difference.

quote:

My second post was a response to your fine post of why can't you do both. I was admitting that, yes, I do both to a degree. My whole point is that you can't follow a plan from BDSM 101 in every situation.

There is where you lose me. Your original post posits an either / or situation and then in your second post you make the assumption that those who use science are also following a script. My problem with this is that first, I don't feel its an either or situation. Secondly, I don't understand where you have gotten the assumption that those who use science / psychology are using a script (which is what you appear to be implying in your posts). I certainly don't use a script, but I do use the tools of psychology. I'm trying to understand how you came to that conclusion.

quote:

As far as my painting analogy, I will give you that some find beauty in throwing paint on a canvas, wiping it off with a cloth and selling the cloth.I choose to dip the brush into my own heart and paint with my emotions.

I'm not sure what you mean by wiping it off with a cloth and selling the cloth? Nor am I clear how that relates to the discussion, can you clarify that?

As for emotions, I take it then you are under the impression someone who uses psychology doesn't involve their emotions. I can't speak for others, but as for myself, my emotions are very much involved. I have a great deal of passion about anything I do. You can attribute that to the Irish in me or the artist in me, but either way I am definitely a passionate person (and often work very hard to keep those passions in check). One of the reasons I want a long term (as in life long) relationship rather than casual play partners is that for me, my emotions are very much involved and I want the stability and security that comes with a long term committed relationship. I want the love, the affection, the warmth, the friendship, the companionship... I want the whole package and won't settle for less.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 7

RE: Art or Science - 12/4/2005 2:10:43 PM

ExistentialSteel

Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

Padriag, the only change I made in my original post was one minute after posting it I made a slight change. See the times of 12:15 and 12:16? I see that you posted much later. Am I missing something?

Apparently I saw your post just after you made it and wrote my reply while you were changing it. I didn't see the change til I'd finished and posted my reply so made a note of it in case it made any difference.

Okay, no problem. Until I read your explanation I was somewhat perplexed.

Actually, I loved your last lines in your response.

"I want the love, the affection, the warmth, the friendship, the companionship... I want the whole package and won't settle for less."

There you go, we are on the same page.

I thought for a minute I was going to have to buy a plastic blow-up doll to post my messages to after my last experience with an OP.

LOL..when they started talking about how they could shoot each other with guns, even I knew it had gone too far.

< Message edited by ExistentialSteel -- 12/4/2005 2:15:25 PM >

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 8

RE: Art or Science - 12/4/2005 2:26:55 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

Honestly, I'm not knocking anyone's style, but when you follow a scripted training program both of you are going to be disappointed at every setback. To get her to the slave status is going to take time. Before she lives the lifestyle on some level, she is going to go through various stages. Once she arrives, she doesn’t need motivation, she craves the lifestyle and we are both going to be happier.

So how do I get her to slave status? Know how I started this by shunning scientific psychological theories? Okay, I’ll backtrack and mention one. See how flexible and responding to the situation I can be? In developmental psychology it is noted that people have certain common traits before they change. People in general feel like they have weaknesses that can be cured by a transition. The sub wants to be transformed, but is going to fail often during the transition. I realize she will fail as she tries. She is going to feel bad because of her weaknesses. But, see, I know this and am not going to be upset when the script is not followed. I reward the small steps she makes.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by “getting her to slave status”. Maybe it is that I do not understand your definition of a slave; can you give further clarification?

For me being a slave is a choice. It isn’t something I had to work up to. I chose to be a slave; it isn’t something my Lord had to transform me into. For me being a slave is being obedient and allowing my Lord to control whatever he wishes to control. I make this choice each time he decides to exercise his will on me. Many times this choice is simple to make and requires little effort on my part. Other times it is a definite challenge to submit gracefully.

As a slave to someone who quotes psychology in his posts, I can tell you that there is no script to the development of our relationship. Our relationship flows quite naturally and there is no need for a script to say on day whatever we have to be here in the growth of our relationship.

Knight's kyra

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 9

RE: Art or Science - 12/4/2005 2:46:48 PM

ExistentialSteel

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Joined: 1/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
As a slave to someone who quotes psychology in his posts, I can tell you that there is no script to the development of our relationship.

Well, I missed the posts you are referring to. I would be glad to comment on anything you bring to my attention for discussion purposes. I certainly didn't mean to imply that anyone in particular should feel scripted in her relationship.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 10

RE: Art or Science - 12/4/2005 2:52:16 PM

ExistentialSteel

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Padriag, heck, I'm still trying to figure out how if I hire a regular painter I can get two dimensional wall paint? I can't afford the fancy wall painting, but maybe I can afford a regular painter. How is wall paint two dimensional.....height, width?

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 11

RE: Art or Science - 12/4/2005 3:38:24 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

Well, I missed the posts you are referring to. I would be glad to comment on anything you bring to my attention for discussion purposes. I certainly didn't mean to imply that anyone in particular should feel scripted in her relationship.

I appreciate the offer of further discussion, so can you respond to my initial question to you regarding your post. In case you missed it, this is what I asked:

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

I am not sure I understand what you mean by “getting her to slave status”. Maybe it is that I do not understand your definition of a slave; can you give further clarification?

Knight's kyra

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 12

RE: Art or Science - 12/4/2005 4:08:48 PM

ExistentialSteel

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Joined: 1/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

I am not sure I understand what you mean by “getting her to slave status”. Maybe it is that I do not understand your definition of a slave; can you give further clarification?

For me being a slave is a choice. It isn’t something I had to work up to. I chose to be a slave; it isn’t something my Lord had to transform me into. For me being a slave is being obedient and allowing my Lord to control whatever he wishes to control. I make this choice each time he decides to exercise his will on me. Many times this choice is simple to make and requires little effort on my part. Other times it is a definite challenge to submit gracefully.

As a slave to someone who quotes psychology in his posts, I can tell you that there is no script to the development of our relationship. Our relationship flows quite naturally and there is no need for a script to say on day whatever we have to be here in the growth of our relationship.

Knight's kyra

It is admirable seeing your dedication to your Lord on the message board, but I really wasn’t attaching special significance to the word slave. This sounds like a semantics debate of sorts of the words slave v. submissive.

I am interested in what you said though. You said your master did nothing to make you a slave that you had to work up to it? Did you feel this way before you met him…that you were a slave or did he do anything to earn this desire on your part to be a slave? Again, the dedication to your Lord that you expressed here is nice. He is a blessed Lord.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 13

RE: Art or Science - 12/4/2005 4:21:31 PM

Padriag

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Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

Actually, I loved your last lines in your response.

"I want the love, the affection, the warmth, the friendship, the companionship... I want the whole package and won't settle for less."

There you go, we are on the same page.

Cool. Just to sum up, psychology is a tool like anything else. How you use it is up to you.

quote:

I thought for a minute I was going to have to buy a plastic blow-up doll to post my messages to after my last experience with an OP.

LOL..when they started talking about how they could shoot each other with guns, even I knew it had gone too far.

I must have missed that thread... an I'm thinkin that's probably a good thing! LOL

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

Padriag, heck, I'm still trying to figure out how if I hire a regular painter I can get two dimensional wall paint? I can't afford the fancy wall painting, but maybe I can afford a regular painter. How is wall paint two dimensional.....height, width?

Two dimensional is a way of saying its plain, ordinary, has no depth. Most people paint their houses dover white, antique white, ivory or taupe... not exactly adventerous or interesting. Lets say you like a light ivory / taupe type color. A regular house painter will come in and roll on plain taupe paint in a satin or flat finish. Nothing special about that and it looks just like 50 million other living rooms. Hire me and I might do say a parchment effect in a rich ivory white color, or a faux distressed itallian stucco (no actual stucco, just looks like it), or maybe a warm color wash. Go higher in the price range and I can do faux leather, venetian plaster and stucco, custom molding and trim, hand painted designs, etc. Put what I do next to a plain wall and yeah, it looks very two dimensional.

This is a sample of a faux red moroccan leather I did with embossed, gilded designs; just to show what I mean. I had to shrink the image to fit here, but I think you still get the idea.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 14

RE: Art or Science - 12/4/2005 4:33:33 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

it is admirable seeing your dedication to your Lord on the message board, but I really wasn’t attaching special significance to the word slave. This sounds like a semantics debate of sorts of the words slave v. submissive.

my kyra and I have been discussing this concept of Art or Science Ideal to some extent today.

when my kyra asked you about your statement... it is not get into some silly debate on slave vrs submissive semantical issue. It is to specifically understand your question "get her to slave status" so slave is of no significance in this statement..... the term slave could be just as easily be submissive... or some other term of personal choice. therefore

the only term that is actually of importance is "status" so what do you mean by this.... to reword your question and remove a term of no significance... it would be "get her to Status?" so what are meaning then... what is it that you mean by "Status" What is the status?

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 15

RE: Art or Science - 12/4/2005 5:21:15 PM

ChainedExistence

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I can answer that...to the point where she knows in her heart that she is his...where she is willing to let go of past hurts, and baggage and be fully in the moment. It's nice to say you are a slave or a submissive at the beginning, and maybe you truly might see yourself in that vein, but I see a vast difference in who I was in the beginning of the relationship compared to where I am now. This developed over time, by seeing how Master was consistent, was fair, was someone I knew that I could count on for ANYTHING..in a word someone I could TRUST with my very life if need be. Maybe some people start that way...but for me it was a process. I grew into my slavehood. That's what the getting her to the status means here.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 16

RE: Art or Science - 12/4/2005 8:37:30 PM

jocelyn

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[/quote]
the only term that is actually of importance is "status" so what do you mean by this....
[/quote]

I've enjoyed reading the interchanges on the topic and would like to offer that in this usage, status simply means "Position relative to that of others; standing: Her status is that of a guest." (thanks to dictionary.com) It's not the meaning that has to do with value.

Carry on, all....

jocelyn

_____________________________

If chocolate is not the answer, I'm not certain that the question matters...

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 17

RE: Art or Science - 12/5/2005 12:22:53 AM

Wolfie648

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quote:

This Sunday morning over leisurely coffee and breakfast, I was watching Fox News and saw where a mother had made her 14 year old son wear a humiliating sign saying he was bad because he didn’t go to school…more or less. Now was this beneficial training? *1) Was this humiliation going to change him for the better? Probably not*, *but I’m sure the mother thought it would*. *2) Where did she get this idea? From hearing about others using this way to shame someone*.

People are a mix of feelings. The way I feel about a sub is going to influence what I do and the way she reacts. *3) She will know if I care about her on some level*, no matter what training technique I use. If I don’t care about her, I’m developing someone that I would not find appealing. Now granted this is only my view, but I’ve been known to view art for hours without ever once thinking of the type paint used.

1) I am fairly certain it was a young woman - not a young man
1) the child, when interviewed later actually said that it gave them a perspective (not in those words)

2) the article I read (news.yahoo.com) mentioned nothing of where the mother got the idea

3) the mother cared for her child 'at some level' and took what action she thought best to get the idea into the kids head that not going to school was going to cost them (the child) dearly. Could it have been done in a more postive fashion? Probably. To me the point was that the kid got it (from what I read) and 20 years from now is going to thank their mother for it.

D (owner of j)

_____________________________

Possibly.

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 18

RE: Art or Science - 12/5/2005 2:32:28 AM

ExistentialSteel

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Okay, to all the fine posts. Let me explain. My dislike for psychology began many years ago during my undergrad years when I was at Creighton earning a degree in applied science. This degree required me to complete loads of psychology courses, among other things. There were more than a few of us who sat in the back of the classes and became cynical as we matched one after the other descriptions presented in abnormal psychology . I mean my friend, Paul, who played basketball and had grades higher than the Asian folks really, worried about some of this to our amusement. Paul, today, is a successful physician with a family and not into BDSM, far as I know.

Okay, so over the years I would hear psychological terms used and cringe again. Maybe it was because of all the time I was forced to sit in those classes. I would hear Maslow’s Theory of Hierarchy used now and then as I hear it on the boards here when I am wanting to read some scintillating things done to subs.

What used to make me think, bunk, when I read about it was my recollection of how very few are able to obtain the self-actualized status which is the head honcho of this thing. It was theorized that only a few great people in history had done this. People like Abraham Lincoln. Okay, but I remember reading also that Lincoln suffered from depression. Oh well, I filed that away for years.

Next, I am reading Sports Illustrated and come across a bio of Don King, the flamboyant boxing promoter with the wild hair. He says that he studied Maslow’s Theory in prison and he was self-actualized. Okay, Lincoln and Don King. That’s two. I mean I start to fantasize Don King writing the Gettysburg Address on the back of an envelope. It gets to be this bad. Maybe I needed counseling when I could have fantasies like that was my real fear.

I repress all this, but I do think we need an old fashioned, Nazi-like book burning of psychology books. The Nazis knew how to do things with their D/s uniforms and jackboots. I mean who would you bet on in a war, them or the French wearing tights and feathers, saying, “Don’t you dare cross our Maginot Line.” Okay, I digress again for humor, back to the book burning.

We should burn every damn psychology book ever written. Plus, all religious books of any persuasion, drivers manuals, Gone with the Wind, specifically because I had to read all 12 hundred and something pages once, any book on Oprah’s list and all AOL free disks to make this book burning a modern thing.

God Bless America, God Bless BDSM, Amen, Bossa Nova

< Message edited by ExistentialSteel -- 12/5/2005 2:40:33 AM >

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 19

RE: Art or Science - 12/5/2005 2:36:33 AM

ExistentialSteel

Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfie648

1) I am fairly certain it was a young woman - not a young man
1) the child, when interviewed later actually said that it gave them a perspective (not in those words)

2) the article I read (news.yahoo.com) mentioned nothing of where the mother got the idea

3) the mother cared for her child 'at some level' and took what action she thought best to get the idea into the kids head that not going to school was going to cost them (the child) dearly. Could it have been done in a more postive fashion? Probably. To me the point was that the kid got it (from what I read) and 20 years from now is going to thank their mother for it.

D (owner of j)

Wolfie, I don't make these things up. I saw it on Fox Sunday morning. I'm sure others saw it, too. It was a somewhat overweight boy, with his mother and grandmother, actually. He looked like he was crying and said over and over then he didn't want to do it. Maybe the one you read about is where she got the idea. Who knows?

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to Wolfie648)

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