EXPECTATIONS (Full Version)

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MHOO314 -> EXPECTATIONS (12/4/2005 5:59:32 PM)

I am sharing this post with fldrkhorse, ( because he mentioned this in a response to another post--we both feel very strongly about this topic, so we agreed that I would start it and He could join in...)--

I think the hole we dig is if the partner does not meet our expectations we then feel that person doesn't, love, care for, etc, me. And once that hole is dug it's very hard to get out. That's when we then go overboard in trying to illicit the expectation, and we tend to either smother or alienate. This quote is from His post---

I feel very strongly about expectations--- it seems everyone is so absorbed with decent profiles, decent emails, but we don't see anything about the next steps--interview and establishing expectations--this is a huge area where D/s misses the mark, speaking up and setting expectations---a sub need not hold their tongue--because they think the Dom/me has all the rights and subs have none--so My question is how do you set expectations, how do you make sure what you expect is known, how do you negotiate and what happens when you see expectations won't be met?



IrishMist -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/4/2005 6:13:11 PM)

quote:

so My question is how do you set expectations, how do you make sure what you expect is known, how do you negotiate and what happens when you see expectations won't be met?


Wow, I must say this is the first topic I have actually seen that digs down deep.

How do I set expectations? Well, speaking only for myself...I make it very clearly known to MYSELF what I am first looking for. As I have said before, I know where I have been, and I know where I would like to go...the expectations are high for what I would like to yet experience...all I can do is be honest with myself first and hope that I can express that same honesty to another.

How do I make sure what I expect is known? By using the same set of rules for the first one. I must first be open and honest with myself before I can do so with another. By recognizing exactly what my own expectations are, I can then relate them to another.

How would I negotiate? With total honesty and willingness to understand not only my wants....but also the wants, needs and desires of the other. C

What happens when I see that expectations will not be met? Well, speaking from the sense of 'still in negotiation stage', since I know what my own expectations are, and have expressed them clearly...it is then up to both me and the other party to recognize, HONESTLY, that either they will be met, or they will not be met.

Speaking from after the fact...I can only then blame myself because obviously, I did not express myself well enough to get my expectations across. In this case, both of us are on the losing end.

For any of these, I would think that communication is the essential key. Without open and honest communication between all parties, it is doomed to failure from the start.

Just my two cents
/shrug



LilWhiteWolf -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/4/2005 6:34:37 PM)

To me it is very simple....honesty, communication and not rushing into anything. i cannot stress enough the importance of taking your time and getting to know the other person. as the saying goes... "only fools rush in"



MHOO314 -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/4/2005 6:36:28 PM)

I agree completely, this deal of " I must talk to you by phone NOW" after one IM , I find foolish, if it is meant to be it will survive the test of time----



LadyHibiscus -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/4/2005 7:12:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist



How do I set expectations? Well, speaking only for myself...I make it very clearly known to MYSELF what I am first looking for.
Just my two cents
/shrug


EXACTLY. This is of course difficult for someone newer in the scene, who has not had the chance to really experience things. How can I ask someone to provide me with something, if I don't know what I am looking for? I try to be as clear as possible with what my requirements are, and just as importantly, what I am NOT going to do, ever.



MHOO314 -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/4/2005 7:17:35 PM)

Lady, save your pic in a pic folder, then when you select your avatar, do browse, and pick it up from there, now back to the post.. smiles



OscarHargraves -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/4/2005 8:55:14 PM)

This is easier if it's done upfront. I find that I'm more willing to openly discuss my wants, needs and expectations during the first meeting or interview than I am later. I go in with the idea that I want to have a clear understanding of what SHE wants from a relationship with me and I want her to have a clear understanding of what I want too. That usually means meeting in a public place but in an area where we can sit and talk openly and honestly without anyone else hearing us. I like a quiet restaurant and I try to schedule the meeting as a late lunch so there aren't many people around. If we talk for an hour or two then there's even fewer people in the place and we can talk freely. My expectations of her will be covered then and, I hope, hers will be covered also.

After that first meeting I want to be sure that we have an open means of communication at all times. She should know she can come to me about needs and expectations. If the problem is bigger than that then there needs to be times when we set aside the Dom/Sub thing and talk openly and equally to each other. If she has a problem then I want her to come to me (at the proper time of course) and tell me she wants to talk. If I can't talk right then I'll make it a point to find time and we'll go out somewhere so that we aren't disturbed. If it's a minor matter then we might handle it immediately but if it's something that is really big to her or bothering her (or me) then we need to have time to talk it thru thoroughly and settle it.

If I'm having a problem with her then I do the exact same thing.



pandoravampire -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/4/2005 9:08:34 PM)

i made lots of mistakes, caused by reckless risk assessments, and lust.

thankfully i happened to make them with someone i now am madly in love with and came to no harm whatsoever, so i guess i assessed the personality type as 'good' the rest came after.

but learnt, just coz somebody puts a 'interest' in their profile, it usually means, that "you will do these things, not me"

So to save being a little let down to say the least, he adjusts, i adjust and hey, were all happy. Moral of the story is, some things are workable, some are not, its the wisdom to know the difference that counts.

After all, you may of found your perfect match. But somewhere down the line, your going to end up in a bad space head wise, or they are, and the perfect match dissappears coz of lifes ups and downs, patience, understanding and communication means all, not just at negotiating stage, but througout, and that wisdom thang.



Wolfie648 -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/5/2005 12:06:18 AM)

quote:

I am sharing this post with fldrkhorse, ( because he mentioned this in a response to another post--we both feel very strongly about this topic, so we agreed that I would start it and He could join in...)--

I think the hole we dig is if the partner does not meet our expectations we then feel that person doesn't, love, care for, etc, me. And once that hole is dug it's very hard to get out. That's when we then go overboard in trying to illicit the expectation, and we tend to either smother or alienate. This quote is from His post--- {/quote}

Hmmmm... My slave does not meet my expectations, but then I doubt very few in the world could - and far fewer would want to. I view her _current_ limits (not in terms of play but in terms of knowing how to serve me) as areas where I can be of use - I can teach her.

For _me_ I will give instruction in a specific area 3 times. If I've told her something 3 times and she hasn't incorporated it into her 'routine' (I'm not just talking task specifics here) then in my opinion she hasn't listened to me. If she has listened to me and not asked for clarification I can only assume she has understood (I do not read minds (sadly!)), and if she has not understood something (3 times) and not asked for further clarification (her responsibility - as I have instructed her) then I say it's punishment time.

quote:

I feel very strongly about expectations--- it seems everyone is so absorbed with decent profiles, decent emails, but we don't see anything about the next steps--interview and establishing expectations--


I think these are 2 separate isues. One is 'screening' which we all do to a greater or lesser extent. The other is about communication. For me the 'next steps' are about the direction I want the relationship to go. I must communicate this to my prospect. I don't know that a general community census will produce anything useful in terms of general BDSM protocal(s), however I can see it producing positive results in terms of people reading something and saying

a) I never thought of that, that's great
b) I never thought of that, that's not for me
c) thought of it - here's my variation
d) thought of it - let's flame (slow roast? :-) someone 'cause I think they are stupid
e) something (a lot of things) I haven't thought of myself

quote:

this is a huge area where D/s misses the mark, speaking up and setting expectations---a sub need not hold their tongue--


Some subs should hold their tongue, some shouldn't it depends on the relationship - my opinion. I'm not just talking from the dom side either.

quote:

because they think the Dom/me has all the rights and subs have none


To me this is one distinction between a sub and a slave - a sub has rights, a slave has none other than granted by their owner.

quote:

--so My question is how do you set expectations, how do you make sure what you expect is known, how do you negotiate and what happens when you see expectations won't be met?


In order:

1) know what you want
2) tell them
3) I don't negotiate (but I am looking for a slave not a sub)
4) educate (positive or negative) or release

Interesting thread.

D (owner of j)



sweetpettjenny -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/5/2005 2:55:59 AM)

I have been seeing someone for over a month now...We talk, talk, talk. Communication. He is caring, loving , and is open to discussion. Ive never had someone like him in my D/s relationships in the past. Sometimes i am shocked at how he touches me or makes sure my ears are covered in the cold. Simple things that mean so much to another he does.Id say , find someone who can and will talk things out. Its so ooooo important to have good communication skills with someone you have in a relationship, even more so in a BDSM relationship. He remembers me telling him that i said i wouldn't give up going to my club , for anyone. We talked about it again last night , and i made some clarifications as why. Id still go , but won't say or act upon anything that could jeopardize what we are building. He means to much to hurt him. We talk about things and issues get solved.
jennifer



fldrkhorse -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/5/2005 3:06:08 AM)

quote:

I feel very strongly about expectations--- it seems everyone is so absorbed with decent profiles, decent emails, but we don't see anything about the next steps--interview and establishing expectations--this is a huge area where D/s misses the mark, speaking up and setting expectations---a sub need not hold their tongue--because they think the Dom/me has all the rights and subs have none--so My question is how do you set expectations, how do you make sure what you expect is known, how do you negotiate and what happens when you see expectations won't be met?


This is an involved answer and I hate long posts. [:'(]
1. Subs seek a Master to have a need met. The sub must know thier need (or have some idea) and match the need with the Masters strength. (If the subs need is to feel special but the Master seeks to lay every female on 2 legs, this is not a match). This is why the courtship period is essentioal and there should be clear and agreed upon ground rules. For example a few of mine are, no sex during this period. The pressures of sex complicate the expectation. Open, involved, and non threatening conversation to find common ground. The only expectations during this period should be the Master is respected and the sub uses thier common sense.

Common questions I ask are, what are you looking for? (f/t, p/t, play, bondage, sex,humilation,etc, and why) What do you expect in return? I never make demands on someone I don't know. The courtship period is a time to get to know one another and become comfortable. A sub should never make an offer they cannot meet, and never to someone they do not know. There was a news story some years back of a guy in the midwest seeking slaves. At that time the police had dug up 4 bodies.

2. Subs reads posts in chat rooms and think this is what is expected of them. When they finally meet someone they expect A., B., and C. When it doesn't happen, they think something's wrong with them. The biggest turn off to me is when a sub says I have done A., B., C., & D. I am experienced in E., F., & G., and I'm willing to try all the other letters. That tells me they have no idea what you're looking for so the Master has no chance to meet the need.

3. Expectations are not hard limits. They should be discussed and can be negotiated. One sub told me he expected to be kept naked at home. I responded, I didn't care whether he was clothed or not. Naked didn't make him any more submissive in my eyes and clothing meant nothing if I wanted to use him. We didn't match.

4. When expectations aren't clear, they aren't met. When expectations aren't met, there's disappointment. This disappoinment is usually seen as failure on the subs part. When in fact it's the failure of the Master to have assesed the subs need correctly. Expectations are the basis for all daytime talk shows. i.e. he doesn't do this, he doesn't say that, he won't, she won't...

5. Expectations need to be S.M.A.R.T.
Specific
Measurable
Attainable
Realistic
Tangible



IrishMist -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/5/2005 5:19:20 AM)

quote:

5. Expectations need to be S.M.A.R.T.
Specific
Measurable
Attainable
Realistic
Tangible


That I like...never thought about putting them in that kind of light.



MHOO314 -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/5/2005 5:40:46 AM)

I do not want to take away from this great conversation, but I received a note from the Mods not to do posting titles in caps as it appears to be yelling, I by no means meant that, its a nasty habit from work when a note is considered of weighty import--I apologize to one and all---please go back to this great thread----



veronicaofML -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/5/2005 5:44:14 AM)

with all due respect to You.......

i learned many a decade ago...
do not expect anything out of anyone..and you won't be disappointed.

i find/have found...--i used to expect things from people...but i was/ and still am//always let down..

it is just best to take things..and take people,..at surface value..and that way...if anything good happens...so much the better...but if it doesn't...ya didn't lose anything.

therefore........never expect anything from anyone...
i have 3 ex wives to prove it..
i won't go into a discussion of my elders...--------

take care

oh
p/s
your mileage will vary..



fldrkhorse -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/5/2005 6:08:43 AM)

One can and should have expectations because we are all seeking to have a need met. One must understand we have no control over others choices and cannot let disappointment destroy us.



ViceVersa -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/5/2005 6:54:08 AM)

This thread brings to mind my favorite organizational theorist, Richard Farson. While his book Management of the Absurd: Paradoxes in Leadership is more about group behavior, he does comment on marriage. The gist of this passage builds on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs - humans focus first on food, clothing and shelter then on safety and security, then on love, affection and belongingness, then esteem, and finally on self-actualization (which only a handful of folks ever reach). The corollary to this that Farson explores is the "Theory of Rising Expectations" which basically says that humans are prone to discontentment - it's just the nature of the discontent that changes (love, affection and belongingness instead of shelter). Anyhow, here's what he says:

This paradox of rising expectations also supports the argument that good marriages - that is, those marriages that reflect what most people would want in marriage (love and affection, common interests, a good sex life, strong commitment to their children, etc.) - are more likely to fail than bad ones. Listen to the complaints of those recently divorced. You will seldom hear brutality and desertion, but usually something like this: "We just don't communicate very well." "The educational differences between us were simply too great to overcome." "I felt trapped in the relationship."

People enter marriage with higher expectations than ever before. Couples now expect - even demand - communication and understanding, shared values and goals, intellectual companionship, full sexual lives, deep romantic love, great moments of intimacy - qualities that were not a part of expectations in years past. When these escalating expectations are not met, even in marriages that seem ideal in most respects, high-order discontent results. Sometimes marriage actually delivers such peak moments, yet couples go on to burden the relationship with even greater demands....All this may help to explain the absurdity that second marriages are better than first marriages, but shorter.

I don't really have an answer - after all, the book is about paradoxes which by their nature don't have an answer. The challenge seems to be to recognize when your expectations are reasonable and when they are not. On the other hand, few of us will really acknowledge that our expectations are unreasonable.



fldrkhorse -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/5/2005 7:08:03 AM)

quote:

On the other hand, few of us will really acknowledge that our expectations are unreasonable


Expectations (needs/fears) need to be understood by oneself and able to be communicated to ones partner.



Mercnbeth -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/5/2005 7:18:28 AM)

What if you kept your expectations to yourself?

I came to my meeting with beth, and all meetings before her, with no shared expectations. I never felt that an honest response could be generated from a question like; "Do you like being caned?" First, even if you know what a cane is and how a cane feels you wouldn't know know what it feels like when I use it. Same is true with all the "toys". Even some seemingly basic thing; "Do you enjoy bondage?"; can conjure up images from exotic shibari, to basic leather cuffs joined by metal clips. A first meeting where these things are discussed in detail, was/is to me too clinical, too businesslike, too cold. Also because of the aforementioned perspective problem nothing would really be learned from such a discussion. I felt it more important to meet the person. I only had an expectation that she was female and, since we met from a BDSM dating site, I expected that she believed herself to be submissive. Until we met and talked and got to know each other, I was skeptical that either of even those expectations were going to be fulfilled.

I was fortunate in that beth's "experience" regarding the lifestyle was limited. Fortunate because she hadn't found and read about other peoples experiences from any on-line "expert" sources. she wasn't jaded about what a potential dom should look like, how he should act, or how the first meeting should have a purpose of completing some sort of pre-qualifying dom checklist. If she pulled out such a list, or if our conversation seemed to take on the structure of a job interview we wouldn't be sitting here naked together in this bed reading our morning mail and drinking coffee.

We both had our goals. I knew what I wanted in a slave. To define that to beth or go into detail on the first day would have been counterproductive. beth had one prior meeting with a dom, who turned out to be nothing more than a foreployer, representing himself as a dominant only to meet and hopefully have sex. To 'prove' his dominance, he showed up with some clothesline and a bag of clothespins, carried in the same designer bag they were purchased in from K-Mart. We enjoyed each other as people first. Certainly in the back of both our minds was the knowledge about the source of our meeting; but without disclosing or dissecting the physical expectations in detail they took on a more erotic and romantic. During that first day, I think we talked about everything EXCEPT S/m, D/s, or BDSM practices. But the subtleties. set the mood. The strong squeeze of her hand, ordering her meal, made reference to the dynamic I desired.

Finally we went to a place where we could be alone. It was the most submissive I was that day or since, because my "limit" was NOT to play or do anything physical on the date of first meeting. Luckily it was a "soft" limit. Once in the room, she wanted to see my "toy bag". By that time she was shaking in anticipation and wanted to experience them all! Now if you have been paying attention you'll wonder why I brought my bag to a first meeting where my "limit" was no play. Well, a good "Dom" should always plans for he unexpected!

My disclaimer regarding this subject is always the same. If you don't seek a relationship and only seek physical interaction, checklists and pragmatic discussion is appropriate. There is nothing wrong or lesser about not wanting to take the M/s dynamic outside scening. For that goal checklists and discussing the structure of play are handy and effective shortcuts. Attempting to meet and establishing a relationship should just flow from the getting to know each other dialog - naturally.

To this day I don't think that either beth or I ever started a sentence directed to each other with; "I expect you to...". Yet we both had expectations. We just kept them to ourself. As it turns out we both feel that any expectation we had on that first day has been exceeded.



LadiesBladewing -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/5/2005 9:28:28 AM)

Huzzah, Merc!

Well spoken.

LZ



KnightofMists -> RE: EXPECTATIONS (12/5/2005 11:11:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

5. Expectations need to be S.M.A.R.T.
Specific
Measurable
Attainable
Realistic
Tangible


That I like...never thought about putting them in that kind of light.



I agree... It is somthing that I going to be putting alot more thought into in the coming days. Especially since Expectations have be a topic of conversation in my house of importance these past many months.

thank you fldrkhorse



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