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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 3:52:07 AM   
tweedydaddy


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You can't drive without a car, that's walking.
You can't be a dom without a sub, that's wanking.
Who do you think is in control here?
Without a sub to play with I would be down to Mrs Palm and her five lovely daughters.

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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 4:05:32 AM   
gypsygrl


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First thought: Heh.  Punishment=tornado.  Its the moment when control is at its max, and I end up like dororthy, thinking, 'I'm not in Kansas anymore' and become preoccupied with finding my way home. 

Second thought: Rather than punishment, I would say structure, in a more general sense, is the manifestation of the wind.  The right* to punish is one element of structure, but its not the totality of structure.  That that right exists certainly plays into it, but there's much more.  Rules, protocols, the dominant's preferences, direct orders are more important on a day to day basis for defining the direction of the wind (I'm thinking about discipline, as opposed to punishment, here).  But, I agree, that the potential for punishment is 'there' as an agreed upon part of the relationship gives the wind its force.

*I use the word 'right' with a lot of reservations.


< Message edited by gypsygrl -- 10/4/2008 4:06:49 AM >


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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 5:32:57 AM   
CNJDom


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Control is given over to the Dominant by the submissive.  Consent makes that happen.  Anything less, and we'd be asking:  "Who's (actually) going to wear the handcuffs"?  

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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 6:13:49 AM   
LadyLupineNYC


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I personally feel this Hegelian idea that the ‘slave’ controls the ‘Master’ since the Master is master of nothing without the slave to be played out.  I feel that the scene has matured enough to have multiple viewpoints levels of ‘submission’ as we see every time we have these types of posts.  In my personal relationship there is a major disconcert between the submissive feelings and desires in my boy and my desire to be engaging in his love of deep humiliating play and control.  On this surface, this would seem like a recipe for a failed D/s relationship but we actually function extremely well in part, I feel, because I have personally set the tone of the relationship which has compelled him to interact with me outside of a strict D/s dynamic.  I agree with Lucky Albatross in that this is more of an issue of authority vs. control.  So, as I see it, I have, through the nature of my own personality, compelled him to grant to me that authority over his body and mind which I then choose to dip into as I see fit.  I don’t actually lose authority (or even control) when he is not with me or before he was in my life; it was always there. I am sure many others can also speak highly of the mixing of D/s and vanilla relationship elements as the basis for long-term stability; I never worry about whether or not he is aware who is in ‘control’, respecting my authority, etc.  I just continue as I was before he was in my life.  Regardless, while there is some aspect of ‘give and take’, the reality for our relationship is that it is he doing the vast majority of ‘giving’ when it comes to learning to personally master his own self and slavish desires to comply with my mode of authority.         

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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 6:31:27 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy

You can't drive without a car, that's walking.
You can't be a dom without a sub, that's wanking.
Who do you think is in control here?
Without a sub to play with I would be down to Mrs Palm and her five lovely daughters.


I would make the following observations:
 
1.  Being a "Dominant" (noun/pronoun) is not the same as "dominating" (verb).
 
2.  I can own a car without driving it.
 
3.  I can drive a car without owning it.
 
4.  You're making sexual acts (wanking vs. sex) the functional equivalent of "dominating".  This may be true for you, but it is not for me (nor likely for others as well).
 
5.  You're establishing a sexual act as the factor that makes you Dominant.  Again, that may be true for you, but is not for me (nor likely for others as well).  Are you not Dominant during those times when you're not "plugged in"?  Does it have to be sex with a submissive/slave?  Or is she also only submissive/slave when "plugged in"?  Is that the definition of "bedroom submissive/Dominant"?
 
6.  I am not sure who is in control there.  I know who is in control here.
 
John

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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 7:02:49 AM   
CNJDom


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I do feel that if you are a Dominant, and you have something to offer that a submissive finds appealing, then that submissive will give over control and consent as a means of benefiting from what that Dominant has.  Likewise, if a submissive has qualities that appeals to that Dominant, then the Dominant has the equal option of offering contol over that submissive.  So it's a give and receive thing (not necessarily a 'give and take' thing) that has the potential for a win-win situation.  Everyone can benefit.  Both the Dominant and submissive give allowances and offerings, but it is the consent that provides the necessary start and maintains the relationship. Power exchange.  

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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 9:16:19 AM   
Roselaure


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sailorfrank

  Lets pick it up a bit for the weekend shall we?   Like the title states who is really in control?   As a Master I like to think I am most of the time but only when she lets me?

So any one thinking that way here?  Is my sub/slave being nice and turning over control so we both can have fun?   and if so thanks so much for doing that!



I've been giving this some thought.  My ceding of control has nothing to do with me being nice.  I am quite nice, but I crave control, the exertion of authority over me.  Luckily, Dominants crave the exercise of that control. It's like any happy relationship really, nothing magical about it just because it's based in D/s.  Each person is geting something they want or need.

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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 10:10:30 AM   
StrongSpirit


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There is Power and there is Control.    Think of a legless man and an armless man riding a single two person bicycle. 

Power determines what is done, when, and how.   Control determines if it is done at all, and the intensity.

Most BDSM relationships that I have seen involve the sub retaining one but granting the other.

Usually the sub retains control but has given up the power.  Very rarely I have seen it the other way around.


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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 10:35:15 AM   
lateralist1


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I really do wish I could have understood all that.
Is authority the same as power?
I always feel that I can't comment much because I haven't got a sub.
I see control as something I have to have before the relationship can even start properly. If someone is going to do something against my express wishes why would I even want to start a relationship with them?
So already their is a recognition of my personal power or ability to walk away even if I don't really want to. After that it continues to be my way or the highway.
You can see why I haven't got a sub can't you lol.
I have never really considered myself a dominant person until I found out about BDSM and realised I had been practicing it for years non consensually. As a parent and a teacher and as a child in my games wit other children.

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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 10:56:49 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sailorfrank

   Lets pick it up a bit for the weekend shall we?   Like the title states who is really in control?   As a Master I like to think I am most of the time but only when she lets me?

So any one thinking that way here?  Is my sub/slave being nice and turning over control so we both can have fun?   and if so thanks so much for doing that!

After all Ladys I think we all know who really runs things....LOL


You know who is honestly in control?

Mundane reality.

It controls it all, everything else is you and she playing with what little you can have direct control over. Be happy you can have that cause so many folks just drift along in life.

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And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 11:26:05 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


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In terms of control, personally first and foremost a self-centric concept for me.  How can I possible be in control of other people if I am not in control of myself.  In regards to authority, I am in charge of myself first and formost as well.   Both this level of control of authority over myself apply to a wide range of aspects.  The thing with the English language are the multiple meanings to words.  To which get often debated and ripped apart on this message board. 

If one is in control of themself, if one takes authority over their own life, and assumes the responsiblity for their own personal power (power on many levels).  This is a solid foundation to build off from.   In fact, dare I express this, if one (a Dominant) is focused here, it's nearly impossible for them to be topped from the bottom or control by anybody, let alone their submissive partner.

This does not mean, I will not listen to another person, grant requests or do something for another person.  However, it's at my own freedom of choice and will.  I do have consideration for other people.

People seems to get confused at times, that being Dominant means that one should or should not be selfish.  In fact there are some submissives/slaves that desire to serve selfish Doms.  There are many submissives that have no desire to serve a selfish Dom as well.  There are no universal truth in regards to a one wayesm.  Mind you many people have idealisms.   The truth of the matter is such, that many Doms are both selfish and not selfish at the same time.  The same can be said for many submissives.  

We all have needs, wants, desires, and expectation in life.  As a Dominant, I am responsible for not only my needs, wants, desires and expectations but also my partners.  Dare I say this, but it extends to all my interactions with people in general.  I do not seperate my Orientation and make it exclusive to the BDSM lifestyle.  That is not how I identify with myself in regards to the rest of the world.  I am simply a Dominant person by nature.   I am not quick to exterted Dominance, I don't want to control everything and everybody around me.  However, if something is effecting my personal life or sphere of my corner of the world, you betcha I'm all over it. 

In terms of D/s relationships, I have control over myself, and I have control over my actions and decisions.  People generally as a rule of thumb hand over control or give up their own personal authority of choice, unless there is a motivation or reason behind it.   In many regards, The Dom has to prove that they are worthy of making good decisions, are capable of managing authority, control and power.

Again, I stress there are many different levels and types of authority, control and power.  The exchanges of these things can occur on one or more levels.  The concept of Deferment is just such as case even.  Some people will defer to me regarding something I have knowledge in.   In many regards knowledge is indeed one form of power.   That whole expression of "Knowledge is power".   It is just one of many forms of power.

There are many times when Doms will surround themselves with Smart people, a smart Dom will pick other peoples brains and gain knowledge and insight in making the best decisions and choices.  The Dom still maintains control because they are absorbing certain aspects of those around them.

Here's a bit of a catch 22, when I have a submissive wait on me.  I'm actually giving up my personal power and control to my submissive partner.  Instead of me going out into the kitchen and fixing something to eat for myself.  I have entrusted the submissive to do this, and do in a manner that will please me.  That I trust that it's not going to burned and taste like fucking dog crap served up on a plate.

In many regards one can Dominant another person by giving up power, in exchange for taking on the authority role.  I give up some of my personal control in exchange for recieving authority.   Mind you at any moment, I can take back control and refuse to take authority for my submissive partner.

The submissive partner can say, fix your own damn food, thus taking authority back and putting control back in my hands.

None the less, what I am capable of doing and what the submissive is capable of doing, an agreement and understanding is reached in terms of who does what, and who has the authority of what aspects. 

For instance there are certain things, that I have no desire to take authority over.  Now, here's the part where D/s really starts to cross over gravitate towards M/s.  Where I take authority over the submissives sphere of self control.   Picking out clothing and such.  Where the submissive gives up some of their control, in exchange I recieve even more authority.  

This crossing point I'm attempting to describe, is where many people have difficulties at times.  In fact, I've seen many posts on this message board.  Where it becomes difficult for a submissive to release some of this, their own self control to a Dom.  While they have no problem taking control from a Dominant.

Trust me, whenever somebody starts to wait on me hand and foot and doing things for me.  I'm smart enough to see this form of taking and assuming control.  In fact, dare I express this, I've been in situations where I was not hungry expressed for them to not fix me anything, or to leave certain aspects of things I do for myself alone, to only have it violated.   They thought they were doing me a favor, however it actually was literally topping me from the bottom.  

Again, control, power and authority all start within myself first.  I do not entrust anybody to do things for me on behalf or for me.   That is something that one has to earn.   Just because I'm a Dom does not mean I'm going to blind into falling into somebody attempting to force their not submissive topping from the bottom behaviors upon me.   Some Doms might think Gee she's really submissive because she waits on me hand and foot.  Poor suckers have not a clue.

Anyways, this is a long twisted post.  Perhaps it will or will not make sense to people.   There is more I could express.  This is all sort of a general warm up of thoughts.  There are so many different, levels and angles to a topic such as this.

I just wanted to toss out one slice of many, this topic really is One big fat orange with many juicey slices under the skin.












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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 11:28:02 AM   
Padriag


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Who's in control?  The person least afraid of letting go.



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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 11:47:49 AM   
MostlySubMale


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In most cases, i.e lacking unusual power or connections, the female is ultimately in control over the male, because she can call the cops and they will nearly always abide what she wants, at gunpoint or by tazer if necessary.  For better or for worse, that's the law now, thanks to Joe Biden mostly.

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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 12:00:39 PM   
LadyLupineNYC


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What?    This won't end well... 

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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 2:28:12 PM   
Padriag


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ROFLMAO.... there's humor.  If you're in a relationship where your partner using the law to browbeat you into "submission" is an actual concern... then who's in "control" is the least of your problems.

Regardless, I stand by what I said... put another way... who is in control will always be a function chiefly of who wants it the most.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 2:34:07 PM   
LadyLupineNYC


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I am still trying to understand how any man who loves woman (and I am speaking here about BOTH D & s-types) would be so cynical about legislation designed to protect woman from the previous practices of police departments trying to downplay ‘domestic’ incidences.  While not overly common, the murder of woman by male partners is still one the leading causes of death for woman (within a certain age group, but I have to be honest I am blanking on the details here).  Regardless, the type of vindictiveness that he is describing is hardly the primary way the legislation is being used and certainly not limited to ‘woman’.       

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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 2:37:24 PM   
Rogue86


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I'd say that you've hit the essence of Power Exchange.  D/s is about choices.  A Dominant and a submissive each have their nature, but whether they Dominate or submit is a choice, as is to whom.  Even the most extreme successful pairings have this concept at their base.

The only other options are force, coercion, incarceration, entrapment, intoxication, blackmail, terror, rape.  Such things are not for Me.


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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 2:39:27 PM   
Subductrssss


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Without all the wheres and who's and why's; my opinion is simply He (whomever He might be when I meet Him) is the one in control.  I seek to find One to whom I can give all my trust and in trusting give all the control as I don't want to be in control of the relationship.  I want that One that can look at me and I want to fall to my knees and will no matter where we are.  I want the one that after taking time to know me, will know what I can bear and what I cannot and will use the trust I give unto Him along with my control and use it to benefit both of us with no fears that He will ever, never, ever hurt me physically more than I can bear or emotionally or mentally.

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The reality of the other person lies not in what he reveals to you but in what he cannot reveal to you. Therefore, if you would understand him, listen not to what he says but rather to what he does not say.
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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 3:27:45 PM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

In terms of control, personally first and foremost a self-centric concept for me.  How can I possible be in control of other people if I am not in control of myself. 


Just as a (minor) point of interest, it happens all the time.  Not you personally, perhaps... but in the collective sense this is hardly an uncommon situation.

quote:


If one is in control of themself, if one takes authority over their own life, and assumes the responsiblity for their own personal power (power on many levels).  This is a solid foundation to build off from.  


I personally found the highlighted portion to particularly meaningful, for both Dominants and submissives/slaves alike.

quote:


The truth of the matter is such, that many Doms are both selfish and not selfish at the same time.  The same can be said for many submissives.  


There are those (much smarter than I) who say that it's impossible to be human and not be selfish (to some degree).  Frankly, I believe that a bit of selfishness and greed make for great qualities in any individual, and are requisite characteristics to drive the engine of discovery, advancement and the betterment of society as a whole.

quote:


We all have needs, wants, desires, and expectation in life.  As a Dominant, I am responsible for not only my needs, wants, desires and expectations but also my partners.  Dare I say this, but it extends to all my interactions with people in general. 


I hear variations of this theme quite often, and was an ardent proponent of it at one time.  But then I realized that responsibility for one's actions resides within themself (ie: personal responsibility).  I may be responsible for establishing what constitutes acceptable and unaccecptable behavior.  I may be responsible for providing the tools necessary to adhere to that behavior.  I may even be responsible for some level of motivation to utilize those tools to adhere to that behavior standard. 
 
But in the end, I cannot force someone to do what they are either not capable of doing, or do not wish to do.  If you can lead a horse to water, but cannot force him to drink, what makes you think you'll be any more successful with a submissive/slave?  Or all your interactions with people in your daily life?
 
quote:


Again, I stress there are many different levels and types of authority, control and power.  The exchanges of these things can occur on one or more levels.  The concept of Deferment is just such as case even.  Some people will defer to me regarding something I have knowledge in.   In many regards knowledge is indeed one form of power.   That whole expression of "Knowledge is power".   It is just one of many forms of power.


Given the fact that we Dominants are not all knowing (and therefore not all powerful), this passage is not uniquely relevant to Dominants.  It's just as true for submissives/slaves, vanillas... anyone.  Consequently, many people in our daily lives have and exert such "power" over us, even if they are our submissvies/slaves.

quote:


There are many times when Doms will surround themselves with Smart people, a smart Dom will pick other peoples brains and gain knowledge and insight in making the best decisions and choices.  The Dom still maintains control because they are absorbing certain aspects of those around them.


That is certainly one view.  Though I cannot imagine having the time to acquire sufficient knowledge in each field as to become THE recognized expert.  I much prefer the managerial view, in which I surround myself with smart people (including my submissive/slave) and delegate to them the projects that best utilize their unique talents, education, experiences and abilities.  I'll retain the oversight responsibility and get PLENTY more accomplished in the same amount of time.  Of course, as you say, there are many different ways to skin a cat.

quote:


Here's a bit of a catch 22, when I have a submissive wait on me.  I'm actually giving up my personal power and control to my submissive partner. 


That is, indeed, a unique way of looking at the situation.

quote:


Instead of me going out into the kitchen and fixing something to eat for myself.  I have entrusted the submissive to do this, and do in a manner that will please me.  That I trust that it's not going to burned and taste like fucking dog crap served up on a plate.


I'm at a loss to understand how a submissive/slave that is fulfilling the instructions of their Dominant has acquired the power in their relationship (even philosophically).  Please, tell me more of this. 

quote:


In many regards one can Dominant another person by giving up power, in exchange for taking on the authority role. 


I'm afraid you've lost me completely here.  But I have an open enough mind to ask for further explanation.

quote:


I give up some of my personal control in exchange for recieving authority.   Mind you at any moment, I can take back control and refuse to take authority for my submissive partner.


Again, that is a unique way of viewing power exchange relationships.  I say this with no exaggeration... I have never heard of a power exchange relationship in which the Dominant gives up personal control.  How do you reconcile this notion with your previous assertion that you cannot control others if you do not control yourself?  If you give up some control, are you no longer in control of yourself and no longer able to control others?  It is seemingly an inescapble illogic.

quote:


The submissive partner can say, fix your own damn food, thus taking authority back and putting control back in my hands.


In my relationships, this would be an example of a submissive/slave rejecting my authority to exert control.  I'm at a loss to understand how it can be considered anything less.

I'm sorry... I tried... but I just can't bring myself to read the rest of your post.  At great risk of being perceived to be intolerant, it's just too much like a trip to Bizarro world. 
 
John

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Sri da Avabhas

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RE: Who`s Really in Control - 10/4/2008 4:06:34 PM   
offeredup


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She is being nice, and so are you.
The control is mutual and you give to each other, as a loving act. That's how i've experienced it. Once i gave her control she keeps as long as she chooses, and as long as she lives up to her end of the bargain that is never to violate the principles that she has declared for Herself at the onset -- with all of the usual care, and responsibilities , exprsssed and implied.
Outside of that context we both have equal power. But inside that context only She has power. i have nothing but my total trust in her --- and in that way we enter the bliss control-and-surrender. 
If the trust is violated, of course, all bets are of because the slave will be unable to surrender fully (unless some kind of rapprochment can be achieved, which is difficult).  But inside the context, She has total discretion and i am in total surrender. 
For Owner/slave that context includes everything aspect and activity in daily life.   i think of is as nested boxes, and inside the innermost box, the Dominiant parther rules absolutely, but both partners are also contained the outer box n which they have equal power.

< Message edited by offeredup -- 10/4/2008 4:36:32 PM >

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