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Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 5:47:30 AM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		in our lifestyle we talk about safty all the time. being careful or being safe and sane 

but what if when things go wrong  whos to blame  what could have been done better  how trusting should we be in somones knowledge  how much experince is needed to do something  after all  i found out alot do not have medical insurance in the lifestyle  who pays for that   or is it player beware at your own risk ?
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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 5:52:47 AM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		When you choose to get involved in any BDSM activities one would hope you do so with the awareness of the risk. I think blaming games can be messy, I guess it depends on the situation but fundemetally each thing you do is your own responsibility, sure the Dominant could get something 'wrong' but you consented to do it so its no ones fault. Re medical insurance im from the UK so thats a redundent issue for me.

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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 6:09:54 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		We are each responsible for our own actions. No matter how careful, the things that we do in WIITWD are often dangerous, and not all of that danger can be controlled, regardless of how much training, mentorship, practice, etc., people have. I think that it is important to be aware, to know how to deal with a crisis, to stay calm, and to avoid 'the blame game'.

I'm big on having information, asking questions, minimizing risk to the extent that I can -- but it isn't all controllable, especially when dealing with really dangerous play, so everyone absorbs a bit of the risk. That's what Risk Aware Consensual Kink means.

Calla Firestorm

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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 6:31:46 AM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		Your question is very generic.  Pointing blame at someone normally isn't very productive.  I was hurt once - was it his fault for not realizing my screams were real or mine for not getting up and walking away? 

Unless you have negotiated things up front the chances are that you will be responsible for your own medical bills.  Hopefully you will never be hurt enough to need medical attention.  If you have built a relationship and have safe words in place hopefully you will never be seriously hurt.  Yes - you are taking a risk whenever you hand your body over to someone, but hopefully it is a calculated risk based on trust of the person.


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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 7:26:30 AM   
Sandyshores29718


Posts: 343
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline 		*fast reply*

As much as I love SSC, I perfer RACK.  Nothing we do is really all that safe to be honest and its a risk I'm willing to take.  We are both adults and know risks are high in some levels of play more than others. As for insurance, I'm covered and so is he. If a person is not covered....I would think it would be on both parties to pay for a medical bill.  If you break your toy don't you try to help put it back together?

< Message edited by Sandyshores29718 -- 10/5/2008 7:27:47 AM >

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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 7:40:54 AM   
sarisx


Posts: 7
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline 		I agree with previous threads to a point, it is the responsibility of all involved.  But there are a great deal of times that the submissive has only a few ways to alert the Dominant that there is something wrong, at which point it is very much the Dominants job to know.

And as it has been said, the safety element can't always be controlled.  Breath play is a prime example of that, there are a great deal of medical articles that deal with this subject and the one thing that is absolutely agreed on is that you can limit a persons oxygen for a short period of time, do this the same way with the same time limit and pressure for an indefined period of time and one of those times the persons brain can panic and shut down.  There are actually several different things that can happen during breath play that can cause a person to die.  These things can happen if all the controls remain the same in every session. 

By law, the person responsible is the person who committed the act and did the damage.  So if I practice breath play with Mine and I seriously hurt or kill her, I'm going to jail.

In the same aspect I was doing a knife play session several years ago at a small play party.  My only rule to the group watching was that nobody was to approach my work area, me, or my submissive during the session.  Another Dom chose to walk up behind me as I was running a small knife gently down my submissives leg "because he was curious" He bumped my hand and caused me to insert about a quarter of an inch of the blade into her upper thigh.  Thankfully it did not hit anything major, she jumped a little, gave him and me a nasty look and I immediately took care to end the session and stop what little bleeding there was.  But this could obviously have been potentially much worse for her and for me had he chosen to do such a thing had I been holding a larger knife, the same knife in a different position on her body and so on so forth. 

The thing about that situation, for a long time I blamed myself for that, though no serious harm had come to her as a result of the mistake, I felt that I still should have been more aware of his presence, though he came up behind me pretty quietly, in my feelings she was bound, I was in control, I should have been aware of everything so to ensure that no harm came to her while in my care during this particular session.  she however did not blame me, her blame went to the person that did not listen and decided to approach me from behind during something that with his experience and time in the lifestyle should have known better.

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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 8:12:14 AM   
faerytattoodgirl


Posts: 5824
Status: offline 		yes i have been hurt before by floggers that got wrapped around on my leg...left a rather large straight line mark and bruise for about a week or 2.
it was tough to sit for that time period.

my legs were not supposed to be flogged in the first place... flogging for me is either on the back or above the navel.   where things are very sensual for me.


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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 8:19:01 AM   
UmbraDomina


Posts: 491
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: SE Michigan
Status: offline 		In my 20 or so years around S&M, I have never injured someone to the point they needed medical care. I have bruised them, they have bleed, had marks, had needles stuck in them, been set on fire, but never had a need for a Dr.
I would think if you have fears of being sent to the hospital by the person you are playing with, there might be other issues.

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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 8:21:39 AM   
goodbee


Posts: 2
Joined: 10/4/2008
Status: offline 		I agree with everything thing that's been said so far, but most especially that what we do is risky.  I like to compare it to rock climbing.  It can be dangerous if you climb without a rope, or climb with a partner who doesn't know how to do key things like tie proper knots, or is reckless.  It is less dangerous if your rope and harness and protection points are well maintained and regularly inspected and used properly, and if you and your climbing partners check each other's knots and technique and have ways of communicating even when you're out of earshot or the wind carries sound away.  But still, even if you do everything right, mistakes and accidents happen.  You take a calculated risk based on careful thought and intuition, and then, if you go forward with it, you go knowing that you do because it makes you feel alive,and that you accept responsibility for your life.  Blame hardly comes into it unless something is done with malice that results in injury.

I say this with some experience - I've got two shoulder injuries - one from barn-dooring off a crack that was too hard for me, that I had no business trying, and one from standing with spiky balls strapped under my armpits for too long while my mouth was gagged and I had no way of communicating that I was in agony.  Mistakes, both times.  Ooops.  But I still love climbing, and I still love the Master who did the spiky balls, and I cope with the resulting shoulder problems now - nothing else to do about it.

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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 9:33:51 AM   
xXLithiumXx


Posts: 723
Joined: 9/2/2008
From: Hell, Kentucky
Status: offline 		I think for me, the only real fear that I have ever had of being hurt in anything that I have experienced has been the emotional. The physical can heal. The emotional can not.

When it comes to the idea of the OP, can some one get hurt, of course they can. Any time some one who is less than experienced or who jumps in blindly thinking that they have more skill than they do, when they dont know what to look for, what have you...yes, absolutely they can be hurt.

In regards to breath play, it can be dangerous, but with some one who is skilled, who has taken the time to read on the possible effects, who has earned the trust that goes along with the submission in that particular setting, the chance is much less likely.  But the same things can happen with a paddle or a flogger applied to the wrong area of the body. Use a heavy flogger on the kidney area and you have some one pissing blood for days, or worse.

Lets face it, what we do, what we find intrest in, is not something that is done willy nilly, it is not something that doesnt take some thought and consideration for the person having it done. But likewise, the person doing it can be just as well emotionally harmed should they do something that hurts them long term.

Its a 50/50 shot as to who will be hurt and who wont..its a matter of knowing your own limitations and working with in them.

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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 9:35:10 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		If you consent to fireplay knowing he has no experience or training, then it's as much your fault as his.
As far as accidents, where things go wrong despite having gone right a hundred times before, shit happens. Nobody's fault.

Edit: Damned typos

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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 9:42:52 AM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Depends on the degree of harm that occurred. Anything that required medical attention then both need to take responsibility, you for being careless and the other for not being educated and aware. If it's a minor issue of a bruise or surface cut then blame has no bearing.

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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 2:14:14 PM   
SlaveIndigochild


Posts: 272
Status: offline 		It has a great deal to do with instinct i believe.
I consented to no limits on the basis of instinct when i signed my contract. I get involved with scenes at my master's discretion and therefore consent willingly now on the basis of growing trust. No safe words, no signals but a scene has never thus far progressed past a point of tolerance although at those times when i fear the activity might my Master has always stopped. The unspoken understanding will be what sustains us. And yes of course one such as myself could get hurt. The 'could' is the risk which for me is particularly arousing. It's a strange world is consensual masochism.

< Message edited by SlaveIndigochild -- 10/5/2008 2:16:02 PM >

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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 2:44:27 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

but what if when things go wrong 

So things go wrong; big deal. You deal with it same as you would in any other circumstance that goes awry.
quote:

whos to blame   

That depends on what you are trying to place blame for.
I have been stabbed by my late husband several times; some were my fault, some were his...take responsibility and move on; that's all there is to it.
quote:

  what could have been done better 

What if's are useless. They solve nothing and give no knowledge.
Come on Latex, have you never once, in your whole life, made a mistake, and learned from it?
quote:

   how trusting should we be in somones knowledge 

As trusting as YOU want to be. No one says you HAVE to trust another.
quote:

  how much experince is needed to do something 

How much is subjective; each person has their own criteria for determining experience.
quote:

  after all  i found out alot do not have medical insurance in the lifestyle 

Ok, this one here lost me. Why the fuck would you get BDSM insurance? The idea is just plain idiotic.
quote:

  who pays for that  

Since YOU are the one who makes such a big fuss over it, YOU pay for it.
quote:

  or is it player beware at your own risk ?

LIFE is lived at YOUR own risk. Think about that for a minute.

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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 2:49:37 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		Everything has risks, weither you go golfing, or you have a thing for skydiving.

I've passed out, been dropped, broken fingers, and gained a concussion from playing around (Not all at once) If someone proves them self to be an idiot, I won't play around with them anymore.

This post reminds me of a billboard they've just put up in Atlanta... it's a man 'slipping' and the website reads "WhoCanISue.com"

It appears the days of people taking responsibility for their own stupidity is over.


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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 3:11:11 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		So are we saying that I need to start carrying liability release forms in My toy bag?

I'm going to repeat something Calla said and then go into My own take on this.  There is a reason they call it Risk Aware Consensual Kink.  That means it's up to you to know and accept those risks before playing. 

At My favorite club that I play at, every person walking through the door the first time signs a waiver.  Part of that release form reads as follows:

It being expressly acknowledged, anticipated and understood by the undersigned that such activities and/or events involve the undersigned’s participation with other individuals in activities which involve physical contact of a sporting nature, and which activities inherently involve the risk of personal injury. Accordingly, the undersigned, as a voluntary participant in such events, assumes the risk of Personal injury by his/her participation in Club activities and/or events, and further understands that he/she and he/she alone is solely responsible for any and all consequences that may arise with regard to his/her voluntary participation in such activities.

This is very much how I see where the responsibility lies in the matter.


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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 3:44:42 PM   
masterforRT


Posts: 176
Joined: 5/16/2008
Status: offline 		Your post is a good one. It's also the reason why extreme things should be done in a monitored dungeon. In Los Angeles for example, such places are Lair DeSade and Passive Arts. Both places have  monitors who are quite experienced at BDSM (Hi, Kane!) who keep an eye on things going on but scarcely ever get involved (I've seen some pretty extreme stuff at The Lair, but never seen a monitor actually interviene, yet I know they would if necessary). 

Playing the blame game after the fact accomplishes little. The right thing to do is stop problems proactively. Doing the above does just that.

< Message edited by masterforRT -- 10/5/2008 3:45:26 PM >

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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 4:36:42 PM   
tweedydaddy


Posts: 673
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		If you know what you are doing, no one gets hurt.
As with everything else we do, communication is the key, talk everything through.

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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 5:21:49 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		I think asknig the right questions upfront is one of the good things to prevent this     

like how long have you been doing this certain type of play
have you been trained or did you train yourself
and about the insurance just a general topic about how to protect and get medical treatment if things go wrong 

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RE: Could one get hurt - 10/5/2008 5:27:03 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

I think asknig the right questions upfront is one of the good things to prevent this     

like how long have you been doing this certain type of play
have you been trained or did you train yourself
and about the insurance just a general topic about how to protect and get medical treatment if things go wrong 




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