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outing a moral choice? - 8/3/2004 8:14:02 AM   
FatherMichael


Posts: 19
Joined: 7/18/2004
Status: offline 		January's question about a BDSM book got me thinking along other lines.

since it is almost universal, whatever 'sin' someone is against, they have a real addiction with but are too uptight/limited/plain vanilla hypocritical to indulge in openly, the question is this.

if you know of a public-figure/politico/person of influence who can make a change in your community against whatever your passtime his...and you know they indulge in your passtime nearly as much as you do, do you have a responsiblity of blowing the whistle to keep your own passions free of law enforcement or civil litigation, or do you respect the old-school belief that what happens between consenting adults is private and should remain that way?

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/3/2004 8:27:23 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		** WARNING: Alternative philosophy follows. If this offends, skip this post**

This is a fairly straightforward ethical question, at least for someone like me. What is your code of conduct? If your personal code for yourself is that you don't disclose private information about people that might embarass them in public, then you should not do it. To do so would be to violate your own codes, which, for reasons of maintaining your own self-respect, you ought not do, regardless of the fear of loss or potential of gain in the situation at hand. If you have no personal code of conduct (common in our society), then ethics become purely situational. You do whatever seems best to you at the time (unfortunately).

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 8/3/2004 8:29:42 AM >

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/3/2004 9:08:50 AM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Unless it is something that involves children or is a danger to someone, I say keep your mouth shut. I really don't care what politicians do in their private life. I care what their public policy is. If you don't like them, vote them out. That is how we do it here.

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/3/2004 9:14:20 AM   
jillwfsub4blkdom


Posts: 375
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Status: offline 		Estring i agree with that!!

jill

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/3/2004 10:18:13 AM   
ScorpioMaster


Posts: 146
Joined: 3/30/2004
Status: offline 		FatherMichael let me ask you how you would feel if what you enjoy was outed yourself. It is not our place to expose them to outside world. We need to respect each other choices in what we make in this lifestyle. Look what happen the Ryans and see how it destroy his reputation the only reason the sealed courts records was expose was to destroy him politically. Who is to say by having him in office and his secret would not had come out and he could have done the most good. Just remember put yourself in his shoes even if you are already out would you want to be outed yourself. We in the community need to protect each other for the one you protect will be there for you when you need it yourself.

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/3/2004 10:22:33 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		I agree with Estring.

Unless it is a violation of the law which involves non-consensual behavior (adult/children, etc) or a clear and present danger to somebody. I do not personally feel it is my business to say anything about it.

Put the shoe on the other foot, how would you feel if somebody outed you for something which you considered consensual activity done in the privacy of your own home?

Sinergy

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/3/2004 10:31:26 AM   
FatherMichael


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Joined: 7/18/2004
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YAY opinions!!! Gods n fishes I love opinions...cuz everybody is right.

the question was to provoke discussion and opinion not to suggest a right or wrong action. as far as outing myself...well I'm a pagan priest, a Raindbow 'Uncle' and a dom who'se been in the life on and off for 25 years, everbody from my Mamma on down knows who I am and I won't do something I'm ashamed of, so unless someone uncovers my secret life as a baptist minister, oops I shouldn't say that in public...okay everyone reading this must eat this message to preserve national security.....careful on the glass of your screen, it can smart when you chew it.

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/3/2004 10:35:21 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		The question I asked, FatherMichael, was not whether you should be outed or not. Or if it would damage your life if you were.

It was a hypothetical.

Given that you had something that being outed would negatively impact (You stated you do not, but work with me please) and...

Somebody outed you.

How would you feel?

For me it is another flavor of non-consensual activity.

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/3/2004 12:04:29 PM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline 		I have a suspicion a person who could "out" someone would be able to easily rationalize it. An "ends justify the means" subset of pseudo-ethics and intellectual dishonesty.

But such radical methods are usually shortsighted. Ordinary folk would end up feeling sorry for the outee, and angry at the "outer", resulting in backlash. No practical progress in public acceptance of bdsm would be made.

I'd wonder, though, if the "outer" ever really cared about progress anyway.

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/3/2004 12:45:18 PM   
FatherMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: January

I have a suspicion a person who could "out" someone would be able to easily rationalize it. An "ends justify the means" subset of pseudo-ethics and intellectual dishonesty.
But such radical methods are usually shortsighted. Ordinary folk would end up feeling sorry for the outee, and angry at the "outer", resulting in backlash. No practical progress in public acceptance of bdsm would be made.
I'd wonder, though, if the "outer" ever really cared about progress anyway.


Valid points all, most people who go about saving the world, by outing or most other "good deeds" --which have the consequence of doing harm, aren't much interested in the world or saving it. From my narrow personal point of view, I don't tell on nobody about nuthin', partially because of morals, but mostly because I'm not getting paid to be anyone's devil or angel on their shoulder. and the fact I've never seen a good deed not be turned into something terrible if the motivations behind it were at the root suspect.

side note, I wouldn't want to be a devil on someone's shoulder...if I took the job, I'd be pretty careful about my client list and find a buxum lass who'd let me set up shop in her cleavage, use an arealoa for a satlight dish. it'd be a nice life, til some prick came along and decided he wanted a tit-job...then he'd fuckup the whole set up.

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/3/2004 12:59:10 PM   
Sundew02


Posts: 457
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Status: offline 		I wouldn't say that I am "old school", but what I am not is a hypocrite. I would not bring his activities to the public eye, as I do not want anyone in my bedroom but me and who I chose to accompany me. Liberal, conservative, swing, D/s, .....unless someone is being harmed against their will, it is definitely NOMB or anyone elses. Sundew

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/3/2004 1:42:45 PM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		OK. Let's use a spefic example. Barney Frank is my congressman and he's gay. He was closeted.

If I'm gay and out and he is closeted but voices tolerance is outing him moral?

If I'm an out gay and he is closeted but a voice for the Christian coalition is outing him moral?

His actions have little bearing on my moral choice. In the end is moral to "out" anybody who for whatever reason has decided to keep a secret? No. It is never moral under any circumstances. Pointing out Hitler's jewish Grandmother, if it only makes Himmler arrest Hitler, is not a moral choice. Pick scenarios all day and it will be the same. Is it moral to ruin one man? How can the answer ever be yes.

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/3/2004 4:31:59 PM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Your right to your own privacy ends at the doorway to my life. If you get in my business do not expect me to keep my mouth shut.

If you'd like me to stay out of your business, then stay out of mine.

I have a saying: If it smells like shit the best thing for it is fresh air.

And yes, I've been outed before.

< Message edited by MizSuz -- 8/3/2004 4:33:29 PM >

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/3/2004 5:08:07 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

From my narrow personal point of view, I don't tell on nobody about nuthin', partially because of morals, but mostly because I'm not getting paid to be anyone's devil or angel on their shoulder.


I am not as high and mighty as that.

Molest a child. Beat up or kill somebody. Steal things.

Im calling the cops to "keep order" and letting them figure it out.

Otherwise, "I dont care what people do in the bedroom as long as it is not in the street where it will frighten the horses." Dorothy Parker

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/4/2004 12:48:55 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		To Thyn Ownself be true!!

I and My Family have been totally Out for three generations. Having said that I can say
that in the USA there still seems to be that stigma of sumthing that is not of the general
concensus to be wrong and bad. This simply is not the fact. This is a Life and Lifestyle
for many and no longer a simple kink in the closet practiced once in a while. BDSM is
becomming main stream by leaps and bounds today. Those whom still practice the
* oh I cant let anyone know what I do because it is morally wrong and Ill lose sumthing are only lookng at one side of the page and not at the positive aspects of such actions* and would do such even if Our Lifestyle is totally open. That is their kink and turn on. I beleive in integrity and honor there for I do not discuss others issues regardless if it is personal or public cause thats bad manners in real life. However on the internet its a totally different ball game and We can be jus a little bit nastie here and get away with it and that too is a turn on and kink so to speak. Ive known Councilpersons whom were into BDSM. When I came to the board for licenceings and permissions for Businesses did I aproach them for special attention. No. Did I hope that knowing their feelings about My Lifestyle I would get a positive responce and vote from them? You betch ya! People vote on such things according to their Own personal involvements regardness if its public eye or private. When no one feels they have nothing to hide there will no longer be intreigue into another persons personna. That would mean all would be way more accepting of the things that are differing. Oh My what a place this would be then. Morals just like Lifestyle is thought of diferently by different people hence its a good thing to talk about such issues because there are many people whom havent a clue what morals even are. [there was this prograhm on Mtv that asked such a question on a University campus of the students there what was morals and only one of the 12 students there could define such in a way where it fit in to a moral structure.This says alot about peoples actions and opinions and goes back I think to the upbringing of the kids. After all this is where morals start. And theres a whole lotta em not getting any Moral training which becomes adults with no morals.] Jah forbid any of * THOSE would seep into OUR LIFESTYLE!!! right? hahahahah!! JMO

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/4/2004 7:58:58 PM   
WayHome


Posts: 237
Joined: 8/4/2004
Status: offline 		The issue of outing public folks comes up quite frequently in the gay community. I find it quite reprehensible. If someone is not out about their lifestyle then that is their decision and no one else's. I don't really care what the justification is.

A certain vanilla friend learned about the lifestyle of my wife and I because we testified in court to help him and he proceeded to tell anyone who would listen. I can tell you the pain is significant and lasting (not in a good way )

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/4/2004 8:04:08 PM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz

Your right to your own privacy ends at the doorway to my life. If you get in my business do not expect me to keep my mouth shut.

If you'd like me to stay out of your business, then stay out of mine.

I have a saying: If it smells like shit the best thing for it is fresh air.

And yes, I've been outed before.


I was going to say something, but then I read Suz's response, and she said it better, so I'll just say......DITTO! again

edit: Ha Ha, I do that a lot these days...anyway, I wanted to add one more thing to that "Ditto"...if you don't want anyone to know about it, Don't Do It!!!

< Message edited by LadyBeckett -- 8/4/2004 8:06:03 PM >

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/4/2004 8:36:39 PM   
gitta


Posts: 110
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Smiling softly this one dittos both LadyB and Mz Suz...sheesh, was there a question?

smiles,
gitta

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/5/2004 5:07:03 AM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett

quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz

Your right to your own privacy ends at the doorway to my life. If you get in my business do not expect me to keep my mouth shut.

If you'd like me to stay out of your business, then stay out of mine.

I have a saying: If it smells like shit the best thing for it is fresh air.

And yes, I've been outed before.


I was going to say something, but then I read Suz's response, and she said it better, so I'll just say......DITTO! again

edit: Ha Ha, I do that a lot these days...anyway, I wanted to add one more thing to that "Ditto"...if you don't want anyone to know about it, Don't Do It!!!


Beckett:

I know it's so easy to fall into the 'never do X under any circumstances' wagon, but until someone has lived the different possible scenarios there is just no way for someone to realize how many ways a thing can manifest.

I have lived, rather painfully I might add, someone doing reprehensible things to me privately (directly to me...and yes outing was among those things) then saying other things publically and hiding behind the "one should NEVER do this or that in our society" crap.

I aired it out. I would do it again in a NY second. There's no shame in my game and anyone who wants to meddle with my life needs to know that. Of course, this individual is still crying foul and still only presenting half truth that serves her purpose, but I've got all the documentation of it. Reams and reams of it. It's gross.

Of course, I realize that the original poster was probably referencing what has been happening to public figures in politics these days. Frankly, my knee jerk reaction is "NO!" but if you work hard to damage someone else's freedoms, the very freedoms you yourself sneak around to partake in, then you set yourself up for someone out there calling it like it is.

When I was 12 years old I learned that if I didn't want someone to ever know something to never write it down. The same could be said for other activities. Sooner or later someone is going to know, an adult understands these risks and choses whether or not to take them.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

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RE: outing a moral choice? - 8/5/2004 12:22:37 PM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

if you don't want anyone to know about it, Don't Do It!!!


M'Lady,

Thanks for the advice. I don't want my 12 year old son to have bullies taunt him because his dad lets chick hit him. When I run for dog catcher I don't want to start out losing 40% of the vote because I'm one of those prevurts who is not moral enough to catch dogs. ("Besides he might molest the dogs!"<<shock and horror>>)

I can think of you as a misguided friend, but I'm going to drop the "M'".

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When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

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