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Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-establish... - 10/5/2008 6:09:05 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		Recently MsK and I were at a public event that is often more "Stand and Model-SM" than traditonal SM. I found myself feeling like my toes were stepped on pretty badly by two individuals who consider themselves "life-style."

The first instance was with someone who may have seem MsK at another party...She can't remember him beyond the evening in question...and stated that it was nice to see Her again over rather loud music. He stepped in close and re-introduced himself...and decided to remain close in without regard to me or the other individuals around Her. Basically an attempt to monopolize Her attention and time. As polietly as I could I put my foot in between MsK and mr.re-intro, at which point MsK took my hand and pulled me up and introduced me as Her boi to mr.re-intro. He was still clueless about his intrusion upon Her space and my place beside Her. After several minutes of Her talking to a friend who was waiting on his Lady mr.re-intro got the hint and took off.

Later on in the evening while MsK was sitting down someone whom She's known on and off from a select private party approached Her and kissed Her boots even as She was warning him that he should ask Her first...as She's the D-type...not him. She brushed it off after silently checking in with me...eye contact and a squeeze of my hand. I turned to Her firend and said "I've gotten used to that kind of thing at these events because I don't really take it seriously...now at a private party...I expect something different in general from people's behaviours, ya know?"...much to my surprise he said "No, I'd do that at a private party too..." It was everything I could do to not just stare at him as if he'd lost his mind. My general understanding is that s-types ask permission to have contact and interact with D-types...objectification doesn't go beyond drooling cuz She's pretty when going up the power scale...not the other way around. And while I don't consider myself a strict protocol individual, I thought somethings were basic.

Last time I dealt with a toe-stepping situation and directly addressed it the person in question simply told me "Well...I don't feel the same way you do about it...so I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing." At that point MsK refused to have any more contact with the individual.

So how do I politely deal with these types of situations without blatantly saying "Those are my toes yer standing on and I'd like you to give 'em a break by taking a step back."? How do I remain graceful and tactful...being that those things aren't my in my list of strengths?

Dommes hwo would you want your s-types to handle these things?

S-types have you had to deal with these types of things in the past? How did you react? Would you do anything differently?

boiJen

Is this type of thing common else where? Or am I loosing touch with public standards?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/5/2008 6:14:51 PM   
bamabbwsub


Posts: 566
Joined: 5/28/2007
Status: offline 		I may not fully understand all of the dynamics involved, but from everything I've seen at parties, whether public or private, it is the Dom/Domme's responsibility to correct the offender, not yours.

Edited to add: And often the protocols are either stated or understood. The ones that I go to specifically state that any person is not allowed to touch the submissive/slave without express permission from the Dom/Domme. Although, now that I think about it, there is no stated rule about submissives speaking to or touching Doms/Dommes. Hmmm...

I think that I would never be so intrepid as to actually touch a Dom/Domme without their permission first, though.

< Message edited by bamabbwsub -- 10/5/2008 6:17:24 PM >

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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/5/2008 6:23:07 PM   
VampiresLair


Posts: 1307
Joined: 9/3/2008
Status: offline 		Fox and I dealt with something similiar, recently, though it was online rather than face to face.
He had a friend who is a lifestyler from London. She identifies as a switch, but she is the sub in her current relationship.  She has known Fox far longer than he and I have known one another. She seems to think he and she have a D/s history, where he just sees it as having a friendship.
Semi-recently, I asked him to mention to her that now that he and I were together and serious for some time that she should refrain from using I love you on his public wall on Facebook. I dont mind it in private and all that, but I do not want to look at it in public and I do not want other people seeing someone other than me expresing feelings like that in public I just find that out of place. Being that she was his friend, and she was owned, I didnt think it proper for me to contact her, so I asked Fox to do it. She flew off the handle, accused me of being a sweak dominant and needing Fox to do my "dirty work" of asking her to stop. We both blocked her, and she only recently got a second chance with Fox after she begged her Master to email me and ask me permission for Fox and she to talk.
I am not high protocol either, but I think being blunt is best. Dont be rude, but be firm. "Pardon me, your making me uncomfortable doing (X), would you please stop" should work for any mature adult you are dealing with. Keeping in mind there is ust no good way to say some things to some people without them jumping off the deep end about them, just say what is on your mind. I find that a far better tactic than getting frusterated becasue someoe isnt getting a hint. When they dont get the dont get the hint, and you get frusterated, when you finally DO say something, it is less likely to be calm and collected than an early "intervention".  Personally, I do not have anything against Fox saying something to someone else who is overstepping their bounds. I am his as much as he is mine, and he is within his rights as my slave and my fiancee to make his place known.

my 2 cents
DV

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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/5/2008 6:27:32 PM   
xXLithiumXx


Posts: 723
Joined: 9/2/2008
From: Hell, Kentucky
Status: offline 		jen,

It's not that you are losing touch with the public standard, its that the public standard has changed. I'm not sure when or why, or even how, but it has.

Here is an example, my girl and I went to a public event here, I dont get into public venues much, but kittie wanted to go. As the Domme in the situation, and very possessive with her, I had a collar and leash on kittie. One of her...ahem...and I use this term loosely...friends, came up to us. Now, I know that kittie had a relationship with the D/s couple that was there. And I was okay with that. I also know that the subbie from said couple is some what jealous of my relationship with kittie...so when she did everything but push me over as we were leaving the car and scream across the lot for kittie to "come here and give me a hug" I gently shortened kitties leash and smiled politely.  Her D-type noticed the leash first and said "shes not going too far" and the subbie wandered over and did a half hearted hug. The rest of the night was the girl trying to get as close as she could to my girl, even so going so far as to try and cool my girl off by fanning her short skirt, making kittie uncomfortable. Tho, kittie wouldnt say anything, and I wasnt going to, because I honestly wanted to smack her and then ask her D-type exactly how much time he had invested in training his girl that he would allow her to behave like that.
Instead, I put myself between them, and moved into the public play area of the club, having kittie kneel beside me.  There were looks from across the room, as the two followed us, and there was of course more than one dirty look cast in my direction. Im okay with that.

I think what you have to keep in mind, and what I had to keep in mind is this; you are a vital part of a relationship...even if you may be the s-type in that situation. And people are really not concerned about you, and find that their own needs mean more to them than yours do. I think you conducted yourself as best you could, all things considered, and I think that your Mistress should be quite proud of you. Just know that you are more important than the other people, after all, there is a reason you wear a collar that only they can lust after, and when they do things like that, you should lift your chin, smile and show exactly why you were chosen and not them.

Good luck...

Lithi


Oh. PS...I explained to kittie that in the future, since we get to those types of settings so seldom, that she needs to explain to her....friends....that that time is our time, and is very valuable, and that they need to respect that, and stay back. They can call her when the night is over, they can make plans to meet her for dinner if they wish, but that time is our time. And out of respect for her friendship with them, I will not slap them, as much as I would like to, I will not scream at them, as much as I would like to, and I will not argue with the D-type of said person....I guess what I am saying is....you have to rise above...you have to communicate, and if all else fails...ask what is expected of you. I am sure you will do fine.

L.

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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/5/2008 6:29:40 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		The funny thing about this, boijen, is that when I was reading the above, I could almost even hear you saying the words.

After having met you and MsK (My regards to her, btw) and seeing the bond the two of you have, I can see how this would be an issue for you.  I do have to tell you that I see one case as different that the other, but that has something to do with Me personally.

The truth of the matter is, in the first case scenario, that would almost have to be the way someone would have to approach Me.  As you know, I don't hear very well, especially in climates of loud music.  So, if someone is going to talk to Me in that atmosphere, they almost have to get right up to Me.  That has nothing to do with role, protocol, or anything else.  That's just the only way that I'm going to hear them.  It's no secret to clip and he knows that's the only way the conversation is going to be heard by Me.

The second one I see pretty much the way you do.  I think you're quite correct that no one should be touching (i.e. kissing, etc.) any person, or their property, human or otherwise, without specific permission.   When these types of infractions happen, I really don't expect clip or anyone else to take care of them but Me.   I can't say I'd have been quite as polite about it as MsK probably was.   That's just My own personal style.


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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/5/2008 6:35:41 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		No. not everyone believes subs have to have perimssion to speak to and interact with the dominants in attendance. Nor is that a universal beliefe or basic across the board way of thinking. Now by that I am not saying just glom onto a dominant, and be a pest or invade personal space, not in any way.
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

My general understanding is that s-types ask permission to have contact and interact with D-types...objectification doesn't go beyond drooling cuz She's pretty when going up the power scale...not the other way around. And while I don't consider myself a strict protocol individual, I thought somethings were basic.



< Message edited by YourhandMyAss -- 10/5/2008 6:41:41 PM >

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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/5/2008 6:50:26 PM   
hopelesslyInvo


Posts: 522
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: the future
Status: offline 		i'd probably let out one of my little quips in a very calm and monotone voice and present myself as being nonchalant and aristocratic about it, which is famous for making people think i'm stuck up and arrogant.

something like 'if you had made a good impression rather than "this one" you might have been welcome and able to kiss those boots more than once', or 'i've never really quite been fond of mental bondage, especially when strangers try to tie themselves to other people out of their own accord'.

but if my partner rather preferred to be the only voice, or just wasn't comfortable with me being 'open minded' with random rude people, i'd sit back and enjoy the show.

if i was alone, [which is bloody unlikely] i'd somewhat silently tolerate quite a bit unless i had a feeling something was going to go too far and was worth causing something of a scene to stop it if need be.

i think it's just easier for me to stand up for someone else than it is for myself.


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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/5/2008 7:23:54 PM   
yourMissTress


Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

Ugh, unfortunately, anywhere there is a mix of people, someone will be rude.  I have never had much difficulty in letting someone know that I don't appreciate or welcome their rude behavior and putting it to a quick end.  However, in either of the situations that you describe above, I would have no problem with my sub stepping in and reminding the rude person that I have expressed my wishes that they back off, and requesting again that they do so.


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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/5/2008 7:24:15 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		Okay I'm addressing everyone...and in no particular order.

MsK and I have been talking about this all day...literally as we're defining how to establish rank and order to others outside of the relationship. Most particularly to male s-types approaching Her. And with that...we both came to a similar conclusion that if someone didn't get a polite hint from Her the 1st or 2nd time She'd likely instruct me to handle it to where the individual would know that they are no longer welcome to address Her about anything without asking Her first...if at all.

It's also incredibly important to MsK that I "hold my own space" when it comes to feelings and responding accordingly to those feelings. Basically, not to push upon Her how I feel AND to keep my own boundaries respectfully.

So that would mean I don't do snide comments. I out-right draw lines when the time comes. We even came up with a sytem of code to let eachother know where we're at while in public, before addressing it with the offending individual. :)

By asking permission to interact with the D-type...I mean asking the D-type if it's okay for the s-type to interact with Them. "Is it okay if I kiss Your boots MsKitty?" Rather than just doing it.

I don't wear a collar. If anything I may wear a ring or dogtags with Her name on them (which she puts on me before going out). Which may confuse some people as to if She's with someone or not. However, that doesn't excuse what I believe to be plain rude and intrusive behaviour. That's my biggest issue...the intrusion.

Now, Lady Pact, it wasn't so loud that mr.re-intro couldn't have stepped back. I'm partially deaf in one ear (I know I didn't share that before lol) so I get the need to be close in situations where the music is too loud. Nope, mr.re-intro's actions were viewed in the same light by me as MsK had viewed them...that's partly why She pulled me between She and mr.re-intro. To force space between She and him by placing a body there...he stepped back immediately and continued to try and have a conversation with Her though She showed no interest in speaking with him.

So yeah, She tries very hard to be the socially nice individual by dropping general social hints about things and isn't as frank as I am about stuff. Then again I don't know many Dommes who aren't the social driving force in their relationships...MsK and I are about even in our social drives which makes things different.

so I'm here again asking...how do I politely tell someone to back-off?

boiJen

PS...Lady Pact MsK says hi to you and your clip :)


< Message edited by BoiJen -- 10/5/2008 7:25:22 PM >

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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/5/2008 7:35:58 PM   
hopelesslyInvo


Posts: 522
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: the future
Status: offline 		it's always felt to me, that people who are understanding and receptive of politeness scarcely need to be asked or reminded to be respectful and considerate to others, and those who are self righteous enough to not practice common courtesy or apologize for their lack of it are not easily dismayed by any means, polite or otherwise.

saying 'well, it was nice meeting you' is enough to tell a polite person our conversation and time has ended.  there are very few things you can tell a rude person, they either seem to not take the hint (especially subtle ones), or disregard them entirely.

< Message edited by hopelesslyInvo -- 10/5/2008 7:41:31 PM >

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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/5/2008 7:45:17 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
so I'm here again asking...how do I politely tell someone to back-off?

I know it's hard to know how to approach couples sometimes, because every couple has a different protocol, so I'm letting you know.  You're in our personal space right now, and not in a good way.  Take a step back.  Thanks.


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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/6/2008 4:46:13 AM   
MsStarlett


Posts: 1879
Joined: 12/23/2007
Status: offline 		I have an old friend (an ex-lover) who always stands to close when he wants to talk to me.  He enjoys 'invading one's personal space'.  That frequently annoys my husband when he does it.  I always saw it as his need to establish 'dominance' in the situation.  I always asserted my own by not giving ground.  When I am done with the friend, I side step him, take my husband's arm and walk away to show WHO has the true 'rank' in the situation.  It's an old dance.  One that the two of us are comfortable with even though it bothers others.  

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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/6/2008 5:18:35 AM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Well there are several ways to be politely tell some one to fuck off..

One tell mr re intro... that MsK is in need of refreshment.. would he be so kind as to get her one... when he returns with it.. say thank you.. if she has any further need of your service Im sure she will let you know.. Please dont let us keep you from mingling with your other acquaintances.. and then simply turn your back on him and offer the drink to MsK.. and move on with the conversation.

she must not make eye contact with him during this interaction..nor acknowledge his actions.

As with the boots fellow.. in response to no I do this all the time.. a slight tilt of the head.. a bemused shake and smile..WOW.. thats so not how we do it here.. here if you dont own it or are owned by it y ou dont touch it until asked.. in fact to do otherwise is considered bad form dear...sweet smile..

Just two.. hope that helps.

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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/6/2008 5:54:51 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Okay I'm addressing everyone...and in no particular order.

MsK and I have been talking about this all day...literally as we're defining how to establish rank and order to others outside of the relationship. Most particularly to male s-types approaching Her. And with that...we both came to a similar conclusion that if someone didn't get a polite hint from Her the 1st or 2nd time She'd likely instruct me to handle it to where the individual would know that they are no longer welcome to address Her about anything without asking Her first...if at all.

It's also incredibly important to MsK that I "hold my own space" when it comes to feelings and responding accordingly to those feelings. Basically, not to push upon Her how I feel AND to keep my own boundaries respectfully.

So that would mean I don't do snide comments. I out-right draw lines when the time comes. We even came up with a sytem of code to let eachother know where we're at while in public, before addressing it with the offending individual. :)

By asking permission to interact with the D-type...I mean asking the D-type if it's okay for the s-type to interact with Them. "Is it okay if I kiss Your boots MsKitty?" Rather than just doing it.

I don't wear a collar. If anything I may wear a ring or dogtags with Her name on them (which she puts on me before going out). Which may confuse some people as to if She's with someone or not. However, that doesn't excuse what I believe to be plain rude and intrusive behaviour. That's my biggest issue...the intrusion.

Now, Lady Pact, it wasn't so loud that mr.re-intro couldn't have stepped back. I'm partially deaf in one ear (I know I didn't share that before lol) so I get the need to be close in situations where the music is too loud. Nope, mr.re-intro's actions were viewed in the same light by me as MsK had viewed them...that's partly why She pulled me between She and mr.re-intro. To force space between She and him by placing a body there...he stepped back immediately and continued to try and have a conversation with Her though She showed no interest in speaking with him.

So yeah, She tries very hard to be the socially nice individual by dropping general social hints about things and isn't as frank as I am about stuff. Then again I don't know many Dommes who aren't the social driving force in their relationships...MsK and I are about even in our social drives which makes things different.

so I'm here again asking...how do I politely tell someone to back-off?

boiJen

PS...Lady Pact MsK says hi to you and your clip :)



I'm glad the two of you are talking about it.  I don't see this as just a post about social graces.  I also see the underlying "pecking order" of which you speak.   That's the part that you term as "holding your own space."  While you know you are first in line, you don't exactly like that challenged, even in the imaginary.

I still see Mr re-intro as different than the boot kisser.  Even with personal space invaded, I see this on another level than a physical act.  Words are different than touch.  No, no one has to ask clip's permission to speak with Me.  If they want to interact on a person level, that's different.  They are implying something that doesn't exist.  Those non real things have a response associated with them.

Talk some more.  Firm up those boundaries.  Ask MsK to establish a protocol.    Exactly how these things will be handled.  What allowances you have.

I know the strong spirit in you almost wants to fly off the handle.  Wait.  Use patience.  See what I see when I see you and MsK together.  That bond doesn't go so easily away just because someone puts their lips to her feet.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/6/2008 6:04:20 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline 		Well, I could tell you how to tell them to back off, but not politely. I would suggest one of those electric fly swatters, but they would probibly enjoy it, so that wouldn't work either. Unfortunately there are idiots out there in every type of lifestyle who have to be dealt with from time to time. I just try to ignore them, but it isn't always easy. I wish you good luck on this.


oh and as a side thought, you wouldn't have this problem if MsK wasn't so incredibly hot. Maybe thinking about it as a compliment will help while your throwing their rude little asses out the door.

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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/6/2008 6:29:24 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Dommes hwo would you want your s-types to handle these things?

Is this type of thing common else where? Or am I loosing touch with public standards?



When I did more public events the situation you describe was sadly all too common. I, however, had no problem pulling my feet back or loudly telling someone to not touch me without my permission and then equally loudly that they would never had said permission based on their obvious lack of manners.

Very soon it got around that TammyJo was not someone you should approach like that. Even newbies can get a clue when they notice someone interacting with others who is not approached in that fashion. At least they did in "my day" lol

What would I want Fox to do? I wouldn't want him to say anything but getting between me and the rude person I think is part of his job as my slave. If they tried to cause a further problem I'd expect him to make contact with whomever was in charge of the event or a DM if it's a play venue. That way he can't be accused of over-stepping the lines himself.

_____________________________

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Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/6/2008 6:33:09 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
so I'm here again asking...how do I politely tell someone to back-off?



Be firm.

"Back off, sir, you are bothering my mistress/lady/whatever you call her." Then step between them. That is what I'd expect Fox to do anyway. The "sir" is to be polite while firm and is no reflection on the other person's scene role or identity.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/6/2008 7:36:36 AM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		As a Domme ... I'm afraid I would have kicked him "involuntarily" if I was warning him to ask first and he did it anyway ...

As for how I would want rob to deal with it ... he is free to - politely - state that Holly and I are his Dominants and that other submissives don't belong at our feet ... that spot belongs to him and only him at this point.

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RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/6/2008 8:44:03 AM   
UmbraDomina


Posts: 491
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: SE Michigan
Status: offline 		If someone without permission from me, chooses to attempt to touch me, including but not limited to dropping to their knees and attempting to kiss my boots...... well it would not be very good for them.....If someone touches me without my express permission, I consider it assualt, and deal with it.( a swift kick to the face when they are down kissing my boot comes to mind.... and a "opps.... sorry reflexes" comment afterwards.)
I am rather outspoken, and I will not tolerate rude behavior or invasion of my space, if someone attempts to put themselves in my beloved hubbypet's place, I have no problems saying..... excuse me.... he has earned the right to be near me, you have not.
This is not to say i am not social and outgoing, I just will not tolerate rude jerks.

_____________________________

Alexandra ~

~~ And I will show you something different from either your shadow at morning striding behind you Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you; I will show you fear in a handful of dust..... T.S. Elliot ~~

(in reply to SweetDommes)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Excuse me...those are my toes you're stepping-estab... - 10/6/2008 8:51:02 AM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		fast reply, but inspired by yourhandmyass's response.


In all honesty, I don't really see it as a "a sub should ask permission to approach/touch/whatever a Dominant" but more a case of - any person should have the permission of any other person that they plan to touch or get that close to; some people have standing permission to get that close to me (my parents, my sis-in-law, Holly and rob, mostly) but others need to ask before they touch me, even if it's just a hand on the shoulder.  The only time it's acceptable to touch me without asking first is if they are falling into me, or if I'm falling and they are trying to catch me. 

_____________________________

Miss Karen and Miss Holly

Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.

Friends are God's apology for relatives

(in reply to UmbraDomina)
Profile   Post #: 20
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