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RE: Dress Code - 10/6/2008 5:42:23 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Fast Reply:

I understood the OP's question.  But I also understood she was trying to make a point.  She still doesn't get it.  Electioneering at polling places was a common tool to intimidate voters throughout American history.  Whether it would affect your personal choice or not is irrelevant.  It would intimidate many people to show up at a polling place and see 20 or 30 people inside wearing campaign paraphernalia of the candidate they oppose.  You also run the risk of someone making accusations of election tampering.  We have secret ballots and election laws for a reason.  It's not meant to stifle free speech or scare voters away.  The laws are there to protect your right to vote without hindrance or harrassment.  Voting should be a dignified, orderly procedure.  It's not a wrestling match you show up for to support your favorite character. 


Honestly, I -don't- get it. This is going to be a supremely unpopular response, I suspect, but it is embarrassing to realize that it may be a fact that our voters are such a bunch of wimps that they're going to get strung out about seeing the opponent's supporters in t-shirts or carrying banners or wearing a frigging pin in the same voting center. If this is, in fact, true, then we've got a lot bigger problem on our hands than t-shirts and maybe we should reconsider the whole concept of ever hoping to obtain a true democracy with such a weak, spineless, constituency and just turn the government over now.

Calla Firestorm

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(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Dress Code - 10/6/2008 6:25:42 PM   
slaveluci


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Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69
Gotchya.
 
Now see if you can stay with me. Would a t-shirt influence your vote?
 

No.  It sure as hell would not.  There.  I answered the question you apparently intended.  Whew.............luci

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(in reply to cpK69)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Dress Code - 10/6/2008 6:28:56 PM   
slaveluci


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Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Well crap... just what kind of election are we going to have anyway?

Ummm, probably the kind where it doesn't really matter what the popular vote is anyway.  If history tells us anything...................luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Dress Code - 10/6/2008 7:48:10 PM   
hoodie


Posts: 108
Joined: 6/30/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Well it might not bother you, but there are laws against having campaign advertisements within specified distances of a polling place.  We have those laws for very good reasons. 


Not sure what this has to do with the question.
 
Kim

Kim,
Listen closely please.  What is has "to do with the question" is this:  It is illegal to have campaign ads within so many feet of a polling place.  If a lady wears an "Obama" (or a "McCain") shirt INTO the polling place, she has just worn in a...stay with me here....campaign ad.  As those are illegal, she has just apparently done something illegal.  See what slaveboy is saying?................luci


Gotchya.
 
Now see if you can stay with me. Would a t-shirt influence your vote?
 
Kim


Being influential has nothing to do with it.  If someone votes for a candidate because they see another voter with a shirt on, they shouldn't be voting at all.  But that is only my opinion. 

They don't want polling places to become war zones.

Many people, here in PA, vote in schools, fire houses, some retirement homes, and even some municipal buildings.  They determined that there would be NO political advertising to keep the process free from intimidation and violence. 


_____________________________

bared on Your tomb, I'm a prayer for Your loneliness. And would You ever soon come above unto me. For once upon a time from the binds of Your holiness, I could always find the right slot for Your sacred key.

Nymphetamine - Cradle of Filth

(in reply to cpK69)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Dress Code - 10/6/2008 8:00:27 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Yep Hoodie.  I vote at the Boy Scouts building, and the majority of people I see during the elections are elderly.  The poll workers are people I know, they are all in their 70's and 80's.  People should have some class and give more respect to the process.  You don't show up at court wearing your political opinions on your clothes; you shouldn't do it in a polling place. 

(in reply to hoodie)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Dress Code - 10/6/2008 8:19:35 PM   
hoodie


Posts: 108
Joined: 6/30/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Yep Hoodie.  I vote at the Boy Scouts building, and the majority of people I see during the elections are elderly.  The poll workers are people I know, they are all in their 70's and 80's.  People should have some class and give more respect to the process.  You don't show up at court wearing your political opinions on your clothes; you shouldn't do it in a polling place. 


Same here.  I vote in the local school, so it's closed on election day.

Many of the poll workers are retired senior citizens, and I love them dearly.  Honestly, they love it when I come in, because both of my daughters come in with me to the voting booth.  The poll workers ask for my drivers license, and compare my name and address to their rolls, I sign, and then I vote.

I think, clearly, it's crass for the state that I live in to bow to ACLU pressure.  Honestly, Rendell is about as pussyish as they come. And if you don't believe me...take a look at the recently enacted smoking ban.  The list of exceptions is longer than the list of places you cannot smoke. 


_____________________________

bared on Your tomb, I'm a prayer for Your loneliness. And would You ever soon come above unto me. For once upon a time from the binds of Your holiness, I could always find the right slot for Your sacred key.

Nymphetamine - Cradle of Filth

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Dress Code - 10/6/2008 8:20:20 PM   
cpK69


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Joined: 5/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hoodie

Being influential has nothing to do with it.  If someone votes for a candidate because they see another voter with a shirt on, they shouldn't be voting at all.  But that is only my opinion. 

They don't want polling places to become war zones.

Many people, here in PA, vote in schools, fire houses, some retirement homes, and even some municipal buildings.  They determined that there would be NO political advertising to keep the process free from intimidation and violence. 



From the artical.

quote:

But two Pittsburgh-area elections officials sued to have the memo rescinded. Their lawsuit warned that if the memo stands, "nothing would prevent a partisan group from synchronizing a battalion of like-minded individuals ... to descend on a polling place, presenting a domineering, united front, certain to dissuade the average citizen who may privately hold different beliefs."

State Democratic Party Chairman T.J. Rooney said GOP support for the dress code is a partisan effort to scare away new voters.
The state Republican Party says Democratic Gov. Ed Rendell's administration crafted a partisan memo that would open the door to abuses.

"The first thing would be a button or a shirt, and maybe the next thing would be a musical hat," said GOP chairman Robert Gleason, who called a news conference in support of dress codes.

In Kentucky, elections officials last month told poll workers they should admit voters decked out in campaign apparel, after e-mails circulated warning that Obama supporters would be turned away if they wore shirts and pins.


Seems like they are concerned about influence to me.
 
Kim

(in reply to hoodie)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Dress Code - 10/6/2008 8:31:09 PM   
hoodie


Posts: 108
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: hoodie

Being influential has nothing to do with it.  If someone votes for a candidate because they see another voter with a shirt on, they shouldn't be voting at all.  But that is only my opinion. 

They don't want polling places to become war zones.

Many people, here in PA, vote in schools, fire houses, some retirement homes, and even some municipal buildings.  They determined that there would be NO political advertising to keep the process free from intimidation and violence. 



From the artical.

quote:

But two Pittsburgh-area elections officials sued to have the memo rescinded. Their lawsuit warned that if the memo stands, "nothing would prevent a partisan group from synchronizing a battalion of like-minded individuals ... to descend on a polling place, presenting a domineering, united front, certain to dissuade the average citizen who may privately hold different beliefs."

State Democratic Party Chairman T.J. Rooney said GOP support for the dress code is a partisan effort to scare away new voters.
The state Republican Party says Democratic Gov. Ed Rendell's administration crafted a partisan memo that would open the door to abuses.

"The first thing would be a button or a shirt, and maybe the next thing would be a musical hat," said GOP chairman Robert Gleason, who called a news conference in support of dress codes.

In Kentucky, elections officials last month told poll workers they should admit voters decked out in campaign apparel, after e-mails circulated warning that Obama supporters would be turned away if they wore shirts and pins.


Seems like they are concerned about influence to me.
 
Kim



Please show me where, because reading the article, and then reading again the excerpt you posted suggested they were worried about voter intimidation.

Rendell crafted the memo the way it was as to "appease" the ACLU, all the while leaving the choice to the counties, who by the way, rely on senior citizens to man the polls, which means that then senior citizens would be put in a position at deciding what is "appropriate" or not.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.  So the given Democrat argument that Republican support of the dresscode is a way to scare off new voters is a pretty lame one.  When one registers to vote, it is also their responsibility to learn the rules, policies and procedures for doing so.    







_____________________________

bared on Your tomb, I'm a prayer for Your loneliness. And would You ever soon come above unto me. For once upon a time from the binds of Your holiness, I could always find the right slot for Your sacred key.

Nymphetamine - Cradle of Filth

(in reply to cpK69)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Dress Code - 10/6/2008 8:40:28 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		Personally it would have no effect on the way I vote, none of the examples cited to support the laws would influence how I voted either. I cannot see the need for such a law.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Dress Code - 10/6/2008 8:53:42 PM   
dangerousangel


Posts: 31
Joined: 6/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I'll give you some hypothetical examples.  Suppose some overzealous group decide to all show up at the polling place to vote in mass.  All of them wear clothing with pictures of Obama dressed in a turban, superimposed over a picture of the WTC towers burning.  Suppose another group gets the same idea and shows up wearing T-shirts depicting McCain riding a nuclear missle with a cowboy hat on.  How about a t-shirt showing Obama taking a shit on the American flag, or one of McCain fucking Uncle Sam in the ass? 

Do you get it now? 


No, I don't. I may not like any of those shirts, but I believe it's the right of the individuals in question to wear them, even while they're going to vote.

Maybe I don't interact at my polling places as much as others do. I go in, I cast my vote, I leave again. I -would- have a problem with people WORKING the poling places wearing political shirts. But voters? They're declaring their feelings, just as they'll do in the polls.

I worry if we think people's votes will be swayed by the t-shirts other voters are wearing.


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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Dress Code - 10/6/2008 10:37:47 PM   
cpK69


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Joined: 5/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hoodie

Please show me where, because reading the article, and then reading again the excerpt you posted suggested they were worried about voter intimidation.



Intimidation is a way to influence.
 
I’m not seeing where it says they are concerned about “war zones”. Other then maybe this…

quote:

nothing would prevent a partisan group from synchronizing a battalion of like-minded individuals ... to descend on a polling place, presenting a domineering, united front


…which happens here, without the t-shirts.
 
Of course the musical hats are touch and go.
 
Kim

(in reply to hoodie)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Dress Code - 10/7/2008 2:06:00 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Question - what if when you arrived at the polling station, there were 20 nazi brown shirts there?

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Dress Code - 10/7/2008 3:38:32 AM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Question - what if when you arrived at the polling station, there were 20 nazi brown shirts there?

E


I’d be confused as to what was going on.
 
If you’re asking whether or not I’d be intimidated, sure. I’m not sure I wouldn’t feel similar if they were US solders, seeing that it would be completely out of place.
 
I’m not really seeing the connection though; private citizen… SA solder(?), or are they just wearing the uniform? Do I know these people, or have we been invaded?
 
Did I completely miss your point? (I'm so confused)
 
Kim

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Dress Code - 10/7/2008 4:11:08 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I guess the point I'm making Kim, is that it really depends on who it is, how many there are and how they are dressed as to whether it might intimidate/influence.

Lets say, to put it into better context - there were 20 neo nazi skinheads hanging about when there's a neo-nazi on the ballot, or 20 KKK members when the grand knight of whatever is on the ballot, or 20 member of the black panthers hanging around when their leader is on the ballot.

Whilst I dont think their presence would alter people's preferences - I do think their presence might deter many from entering the polling station - leading to a de facto advantage for the preferred candidate of those hanging around perhaps.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Dress Code - 10/7/2008 6:14:15 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I guess the point I'm making Kim, is that it really depends on who it is, how many there are and how they are dressed as to whether it might intimidate/influence.


I fully agree with your sentiment about numbers. Personally, I see no reason for people to congregate at polling places, at all.
 
As far as what’s being worn; political t-shirts, buttons, even musical hats; I wouldn’t find it to be a big deal. Just me. Of course, it’s a far stretch from there, to nazi brown shirts.

quote:

Lets say, to put it into better context - there were 20 neo nazi skinheads hanging about when there's a neo-nazi on the ballot, or 20 KKK members when the grand knight of whatever is on the ballot, or 20 member of the black panthers hanging around when their leader is on the ballot.

Whilst I dont think their presence would alter people's preferences - I do think their presence might deter many from entering the polling station - leading to a de facto advantage for the preferred candidate of those hanging around perhaps.

E 

 
I would think it is the ideas held by such groups that concerns people, not the clothes they wear. At least I would hope.
 
Kim

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Dress Code - 10/7/2008 8:35:14 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Question - what if when you arrived at the polling station, there were 20 nazi brown shirts there?

E


So what. Do you think that because there are 20 nazi-brown shirts, I'm suddenly going to think "Oh, Gee, maybe I should vote for Hitler?" Crimeney sakes. The whole concept is absolutely ridiculous. They're frigging t-shirts, people. So if 75 people come in wearing Marilyn Manson t-shirts, everyone is suddenly going to Vote Goth??? Come -on-... or do we really have -that- little faith in the capacity of people to think?

Unless they laid a hand on me, I wouldn't care if they stood over my shoulder and read my frigging ballot -- it isn't going to change how I vote. If they want to 'make a list' for who they're going to take out first, by all means, come an' get me. If they think it will get them anywhere, they're welcome to roast my fat behind and have it for dinner, but it still isnt' going to change my vote.


Calla Firestorm

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 10/7/2008 8:37:37 AM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Dress Code - 10/7/2008 8:38:05 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I agree Calia - but it might well turn other people off even going near the place to vote for someone else?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Dress Code - 10/7/2008 11:08:38 AM   
hoodie


Posts: 108
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: hoodie

Please show me where, because reading the article, and then reading again the excerpt you posted suggested they were worried about voter intimidation.



Intimidation is a way to influence.
 
I’m not seeing where it says they are concerned about “war zones”. Other then maybe this…

quote:

nothing would prevent a partisan group from synchronizing a battalion of like-minded individuals ... to descend on a polling place, presenting a domineering, united front


…which happens here, without the t-shirts.
 
Of course the musical hats are touch and go.
 
Kim


Intimidation goes far beyond being influential.  In hotly contested elections, they have felt it wise to say that there is no campaigning within a certain feet of a polling place to ensure that all people get to vote without having people screaming at them outside the polling place.  I think the same rule applies.  I've seen several instances in this state where people have had to walk through hoards of supporters for candidates who, they were far enough away from the polling place, made it uncomfortable getting there.  Can they say no gathering anywhere?  No they can't. 

But they err on the side of caution with this one, and honestly it's no big deal.  People who've voted know this and they should be teaching their children and future generations this.  There are alot of rules in society I don't like, but if I worked through the ACLU to get rid of everyone of them, there'd be chaos on the horizon.  These laws were cast through the will of the people.  It's the will of the people who should be undoing them, not one group or another pushing their agenda's.

I have no use for political activism within my government.  My government, your government should be doing as a majority of the people want.  Rendell NEVER brought this to the voters.  Imagine the surprise if the will of the people was to say...get rid of the law.  But we need the chance to do that.  If he felt so strongly about it, put the referendum on the ballot.  Let us decide it. 

But that's the problem in this state.  The elected officials only need the voters to get elected.  After that, they consider us nothing more than a pocketbook.  2005's elected official payraise, the pushing through of gambling for supposed property tax relief (which the gambling revenue's have paid for everything BUT), the massive amounts of money being funnelled towards Pittsburgh and Philadelphia at the expense of the other 65 counties, the lack of real educational reform in this state, the lack of governmental reform in this state...the list goes on and on.





_____________________________

bared on Your tomb, I'm a prayer for Your loneliness. And would You ever soon come above unto me. For once upon a time from the binds of Your holiness, I could always find the right slot for Your sacred key.

Nymphetamine - Cradle of Filth

(in reply to cpK69)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Dress Code - 10/7/2008 11:18:36 AM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline 		I'll have to remember to wear my "Bettie Page being spanked" t-shirt to my local polling place... if someone complains, at least I can say, "Well, it isn't an Obama or McCain shirt... what's the problem?"


(in reply to MadAxeman)
Profile   Post #: 59
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