Consent vs informed consent

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softhearted -> Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 12:53:38 PM)
It's now been a year since my last relationship exploded. It exploded because I abruptly found out that virtually everything he ever said or wrote was a lie, from the first email he sent me to the last. One of the things I've struggled with since then is the issue of consent, given that is an essential part of BDSM. Without going into much detail at this point, some of the more obvious things I did not consent to were: Being lied to about his financial situation. (He claimed to be working all the time when in fact he was barely working at all, and in debt for reasons that weren't true.) Being lied to about his living situation. (He was living alone when we met, but he moved in with a woman I didn't know about several months into the relationship. We always met at my place, so it was easy for him to pull that off.) Being punished for fictitious reasons. Being lied to about his fucking around with other women (other than one that I did consent to, for complicated reasons). Being potentially exposed to STDs because of the previous item. Having a laptop "borrowed". (He disappeared from my life shortly after I asked for the laptop back, which of course meant that he stole it, not borrowed it.) I'm quite clear about the above, and more. The question that I have struggled with for some time is whether, given the lies, was anything really consensual? That is, by his lies and actions, did he remove my ability to consent to anything, since my consent was predicated by a situation (and a person) that was not real. Had I know the truth, I probably would have never have entered into the relationship at all or, if I had, I would have behaved very differently within it (and almost certainly ended it fairly quickly). Thanks in advance for any feedback you may have for me. m

mistoferin -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 1:10:29 PM)
Why are you picking apart a relationship that ended a year ago? Put it in the past where it belongs and stop revisiting it. It doesn't sound like it was worth the room you are giving it in your head..

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 1:12:52 PM)
He did not "remove" your ability to consent by his actions. What he -did- do was not give full disclosure. However, this is a risk that we take in -any- contract. I write research studies, and we use the term "informed consent" to indicate that we have provided the subjects with all the information that we can about the risks and benefits of what we're asking them to be involved in. However, there is a clause in the consent that basically says (I'm paraphrasing here) if something happens that we didn't expect, we're not liable, because this is -research-, and sometimes stuff just happens... and sometimes, what happens can even kill ya... and sometimes what happens is that the thing we're trying doesn't work at all... and sometimes, it doesn't work at all -and- it screws you up or kills you... so don't sign if you're not willing to accept that this is an experiment, and that you're taking some risks, too, for the benefit of something that will be good if it works. This is exactly the kind of mentality that I think people should bring to their risky activities in any sense... the idea that they share the benefits (if any) and they share the risk... and if it is too much, then they have the right to walk away and say "I don't consent to this." Calla Firestorm

subtee -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 1:14:26 PM)
It seems to me one submits to a person, a Dominant, not to activities; therefore you did not consent as he was not who he held himself out to be.

RCdc -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 1:17:56 PM)
No he did not remove your ability to consent. You simply entered a relationship which was not fully informed. Why are you concentrating on old ground? the.dark.

softhearted -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 1:22:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark No he did not remove your ability to consent. You simply entered a relationship which was not fully informed. Why are you concentrating on old ground? the.dark. In large part because I want to learn from my experience, in part because I'm stuck with him in my life in a peripheral way because I pressed criminal charges for larceny and consequently I am receiving a check from from him via the probation department. m

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 1:24:35 PM)
~reconsidered~

softhearted -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 1:40:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW ~reconsidered~ quote: I suspect that she's covering "old ground" because she's trying to figure out how not to 'risk out' of another relationship... it sounds to me like she's trying to figure out a way to get involved with someone and not have to take any risks in the process -- to have a guarantee that this person is who he says he is, and that the relationship will work out perfectly. CFB No, that's not the case. There are risks in any relationship, be it vanilla or kink, just like there are in life. But isn't trying to learn from experience a valuable process? I do want to know that a person says who he says he is, to be sure, and that doesn't seem unreasonable, but obviously there's no way to guarantee that any relationship will work, and none work "perfectly". I was unlucky enough to have gotten involved with a predator: a compulsive liar, a cheater, and a thief. There were victims before me and at least one after me, and I'm fairly sure that I've read topics about him here, since the stories sound very familiar and he has a profile on cm. But his other victims are a separate matter. There were probably warning signs that I overlooked or excused, and I want to learn how to do better. I hope not to run into a predator again, but I do want to make sure that I'm able to recognise one. And, conversely, I don't want to make unfair assumptions about any man I meet from here or elsewhere, or have my prior experience get in the way of things. A year may seem like a long time, but he did a lot of damage. I doubt many people get over the shock overnight after finding out that a year+ relationship was based on an extraordinary amount of deceit. m

RCdc -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 2:01:40 PM)
I get that you desire to learn from the experience, however you asked about him and for me, that just puts a different spin on it. I understand that you will be getting a payment from him and until that is over and done with, he is still around. I would avoid getting involved in another relationship until that is done - (unless he decides to be an arse about it). My suggestion is to make sure you get some professional counsel in case of any PTS - it happens in these cases sometimes. I don't believe that you can watch out for a predator persay. Without getting into specifics on a personal front on what you have been through, I don't believe that people can externally advise you other than what you have already stated that you are already aware of. Something I have always found is if a person has long term friendships and network, this is a good indicator of their personal behaviour. If a person cannot keep friends or has no lasting relationships, and who is not willing to introduce me, he would not interest me. the.dark.

CalifChick -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 2:07:23 PM)
You could be speaking of my ex-husband. I got physically dizzy when I discovered his biggest deceit... like I had been living in the Twilight Zone for several years and didn't know it until that point. I got angry, I got depressed, I blamed myself, I blamed him, I got suspicious of everybody and their motivations, I got counseling... you name it, I went thru it. Gradually I figured out what my part in the mess was, and how to do things differently from then on. The hardest part is trying to forgive myself for what I let happen, for the things I did and the things I didn't do. Just try to learn and grow and understand, and try not to punish people that come into your life for the sins of others. Cali

tweedydaddy -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 2:38:34 PM)
Move on. What happened last year shouldn't blight your life.

softhearted -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 2:51:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy Move on. What happened last year shouldn't blight your life. I have, mostly. There's still anger towards him, but it doesn't dominate my life, nor do I feel it most days. But I'm still left with questions that are hard to answer, especially since it was my first and only (so far) D/s relationship. Or, rather, so-called D/s relationship. And, of course, there's the monthly check, which will be coming for quite some time unless he gets his act together enough to pay me back faster. Or if he violates probation, in which case we're back in court again. And it's hard knowing he's going to damage more women's lives, but there's nothing I can do about that. Thank you for your kind wishes. m

MichaelR -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 3:39:51 PM)
Personally, if it wasn't informed it wasn't consent. If I deviate, knowingly, from our agreement you haven't given consent unless I inform you (as someone else mentioned, I think) of the variables involved in whatever deviation I make from our agreement. We have specific limitations on our relationship. If I change that situation without informing her, I don't see where she CAN consent. Occasionally a variation of a consented item might arise where I believe it's within the parameters and she disagrees. Those occasions result in a discussion and mutual decision on whether or not it is within the original parameters. If we cant agree that it is, then we either eliminate that variant or create a new one that she can consent to.

Jeptha -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 4:51:41 PM)
I don't see why people are dogging you for asking about it. A year isn't that long ago. Especially if you got burned by somebody. It can take a while to process that. It's true that you don't want to ruminate on something excessively so that that becomes your only reality. But, "just letting go" and forgetting about it doesn't necessarily deal with it, either. You aren't learning from the past by just forgetting about it. Consent...yeah, you consented to one thing and got another thing, and that really sucks. As I think Calla Firestorm was alluding to above, though, we have to take responsibility for our decisions at some point, too, though; we have to assess the risks, check the facts, and be a good judge of character about those whom we associate with. That's part of the lesson going forward, I suppose. Not always easy. Well, easy for me to say - but what else can ya say?

Rover -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 4:55:42 PM)
Ignoring the peripheral issues, I'm of the opinion that it's impossible to offer legitimate consent if you do not understand what you are consenting to for any number of reasons (uninformed, ill informed, etc.). I believe that consent is more than some utterance in the affirmative. And although "abuse" is an often over-used term in BDSM (and particularly in online forums), I believe that the absence of consent is the foundation upon which most defintions of the term is based. Others may disagree, of course. John

hapistan -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 5:07:09 PM)
I really don't want to belittle your situation, you're clearly right to feel screwed over and decieved... and its just my perspective (and do forgive me if this comes across as patronising its certainly not my intent) but the idea of informed consent comes from the medical context, where historically a patients consent (or their representatives) to treatment or surgery is only deemed to have been given if the doctor has fully informed them of the benefits and risks of it, along with possible alternatives. it came about at some point because previously doctors just issued their edicts and no one questioned them and it wasn't really the best way to do things. its pretty clear why this should then appear and be useful and important in bdsm. but honestly I think the world would be an even more complex one if it were to apply further into relationships, however despicable and hurtful deception almost always is

leadership527 -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 5:07:38 PM)
laughs Looks like this is my week to follow John and DesFIP around and agree with everything they say. Particularly poignant, John, is the bit about abuse and consent. I've noted on these very boards that there are HUGE differences in what people perceive as "consent" and, as you suggest, those differences drive some pretty strong feelings about whether a given activity is abusive or not.

Rover -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 5:12:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 laughs Looks like this is my week to follow John and DesFIP around and agree with everything they say. Particularly poignant, John, is the bit about abuse and consent. I've noted on these very boards that there are HUGE differences in what people perceive as "consent" and, as you suggest, those differences drive some pretty strong feelings about whether a given activity is abusive or not. Sadly, characterizing each failed relationship and minor infraction as "abuse" simply detracts from the very real damage done by the real thing. And does a disservice to those folks who have been harmed. John

hapistan -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 5:16:05 PM)
my take on it, is that the "sin" so to speak, is not the lack of consent, but the equally lousy one that happened before, of lies and deception? it might seem picky on my part (and maybe it is) but if a guy goes into a bar, convinces a girl he's a millionaire rock star, she sleeps with him, then finds out he's been lying. he's a liar, but despite the fact that consents to sex has been given on the basis of a lie, he's not a rapist. he's a liar

Rover -> RE: Consent vs informed consent (10/6/2008 5:19:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hapistan my take on it, is that the "sin" so to speak, is not the lack of consent, but the equally lousy one that happened before, of lies and deception? it might seem picky on my part (and maybe it is) but if a guy goes into a bar, convinces a girl he's a millionaire rock star, she sleeps with him, then finds out he's been lying. he's a liar, but despite the fact that consents to sex has been given on the basis of a lie, he's not a rapist. he's a liar Actually, although he might not be guilty of a criminal act, he could be found guilty in civil court and ordered to pay a financial penalty. Lying removes one's ability to offer informed consent. John

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