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RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/8/2008 8:17:30 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

Hi Mz Mia,

I think this situation may well become worse before getting better. The biggest shopping time of the year is coming up and who can say how that will be this year?

In my sales job we talk to people all over the country.
I have spoken with folks who have recently been laid off, their home in foreclosure, cutting up their credit cards, etc. Excessive credit and bad debts are a huge part of the problem.

Oprah has a financial advisor named Suze Orman on her show as a frequent guest. You can find good financial information and advice here -

http://www.oprah.com/topics/money

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 161

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/8/2008 8:18:58 PM

variation30

Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

In case you don't know, economists disagree on a lot of things including the causes of recessions/depressions etc.

I know. and a lot of the economists are wrong. I tend to respect the ones who have always accurately predicted the causes of depressions...the Austrians.

quote:

Besides I don't know where you are getting the idea that there was no government intervention. They tried a lot of different things to aide the economy at that time. Maybe you are thinking of a different Panic. *shrug*

no, I'm thinking of 1819. I didn't say there was no government intervention as there obviously was (as a central bank was established in 1816....which didnt' help the panic)...but Monroe himself did very, very, very little (and only until 1821, after the panic had cooled down as the market took care of itself after prices were allowed to plummet).

_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 162

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/8/2008 10:49:53 PM

rexrgisformidoni

Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline

Um....OK.
Variation...if you hate paying taxes and all this "socialist" nonsense, then go somewhere with no real central government. Earlier in this thread I though you were well spoken, and said as much in a private message. I've read the Austrian model...and after re-reading it today, it (in my esteemed opinion) means not a damn thing. Its an opinion. 1819 was damn near 200 years ago. The world is at least 1906572 times different now. Ergo (always liked that word) that example doesn't mean a hill of peas to me. Governments exist, and yes they tax, and bla, bla, bla, they steal your money for the dmv and sending kids to school and paying for the police who keep the bad folks away and astronauts and all kinds of good shit. So call me a socialist. I don't care. I am all for the dmv and student loans and interstates. you know, things you take for granted. I'd enjoy seeing what you'd come up with. please tear this apart so I can laugh when I drink my coffee in the morning which was delivered by the united states postal system. An agency which is run from your "stolen" tax dollars. Oh and resources are finite. And people who are "intelligent" regularly clear cut forests and mine all the coal and iron, etc.

His Holiness, James the XXXIIVVVIICM

(in reply to variation30)

Post #: 163

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/8/2008 11:15:58 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

first off, what is our objective gauge for how 'good' a medical service is?

...in my terms, a good medical service makes sure that those who need that service can access it and that it provides adequate quality care. The NHS in the Uk most certainly fits that criterion.

quote:

secondly, you are misreading my response. my response is that saying odds are, there are more factors than you are admitting (population, the samples used, etc.).

.....i think you're reaching here. It's not a statistical anomaly to suggest that a large percentage of US citizens can not afford adequate health care and that problem doesn't exist in the UK.

quote:

I think that all government run progarams are unethical as they exist on stolen (taxed) money.

.......and that's dogma. You know, that thing i suggested you were basing your opinion on.

quote:

in addition to that, centrally planning things such as prices, hours, wages, quality assumes things that cannot be known (like opportunity costs) and are always inefficent

...on this point we agree. Pity that's not how the UK NHS works. The NHS in the UK is decentralised. You see, a society can say they want a thing and the decision to have that thing is made centrally. Nothing says it has to be delivered centrally.

quote:

um. the dmv works. does that mean it works well? yes, they work in the sense that they function, but I have ethical problems with how they are funded and the way in which they claim authority.

.....and, once again, that's a dogmatic belief.

Someone has already mentioned a few other things to you. Roads, for instance. The sort of society you seem to desire has no central government, therefore no military, no police, no infrastructure, no prisons. i'm afraid there is probably nowhere on earth in the 21st century that will allow you to live like that. The majority of people, the overwhelming majority, don't want it. They want a certain amount of government......which entails a certain amount of taxation. This very medium that we are using to communicate is a product of a society at a relatively high level of organisation. It was developed, in part, using funds derived from taxation. To quote John Donne, no man is an island. You may want to be an island, to have no social responsibility.......but in the West we have moved on from that primitive level of societal organisation.

(in reply to variation30)

Post #: 164

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/9/2008 2:32:37 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

TY, Philosophy. I recall telling one of our resident "Libertarians" that I would be happy to let them opt out of our modern society. That means they would not have access to any of the things we pay for. Roads. Postal Service. Libraries. Military "protection". TV. The internet.

I would be absolutely thrilled if they could go away and leave the rest of us alone, to organize society as we wish. As soon as one of them votes, they reveal themselves to be hypocrites. The act of voting is engaging in the society that they reject.

Libertarianism is, to me, the petulance of a child who has no understanding that he is, for better or worse, a member of society. They have all sorts of arguments why what we have now is absolutely terrible, but they have no realistic, practical society with which to replace it. None.

We have society because no one person, or family, is able to produce all that is necessary to survive independently. No person can build a house, tend fields, tan leather, make candles, preserve vegetables, forge plows, make needles to sew clothes with, make the cloth, make the glass for windows, make the nails for building, make roof tiles, grow herbs for medicines, make a generator for electricity, make light bulbs, shoe a horse, build a sawmill, or do any number of other things which need to be done to be "self-sufficient". The whole Libertarian fantasy breaks down when confronted with reality. Now they think they will be able to set up little enclaves where everyone contributes to the welfare of the whole community, but all they've done is re-invent the Commune. They've also gone Socialist. Hahahaha.

That's why the far-right fantasy of Libertarianism is a joke. We are all interdependant. It is not possible for any one person, or family, to exist completely independently of others.

Don't get me wrong. I think it's great that someone goes off and buys 20 acres in N. Alabama, and does the Homesteading thing. There's a bunch of folks not too far from there, in Summertown, TN, who have had a successful homestead for almost 40 years. But those folk at the Farm are not deluding themselves into thinking they are totally self-sufficient. They know they are inter-dependent. As do all other rational people, Ludwig von Mises notwithstanding. (clue time: this is 2008, not 1823 or whatever. This is not the Austro-Hungarian Empire, we are several decades past the Industrial Revolution, and there are considerably more people in the US than the 9 million or so who lived in Osterreich back then. Only flakes think von Mises, and his modern-day priests at the U of Chicago (hayek, et alia) have any relevance. Odd that they pay no attention to a more relevent and current economic analyst, Karl Marx.

Well, people will belive what they want to believe. I'll be happy to consider the validity of the Libertarian socio-economic model, if they can show me a successful application of that philosophy.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 165

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/9/2008 2:41:26 AM

tweedydaddy

Posts: 673
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline

Your right. We are all doomed. Better party and spend our cash while we still can.

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 166

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/9/2008 2:51:16 AM

seeksfemslave

Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Totally free markets tend to oligarchy, monopoly and relative poverty for the masses.

when has there been a monopoly under the free market? when you think of the robber barons of the 19th century...us steel, us sugar, etc. all these people gained monpolies through government intervention in the market (through tariffing imports, for instance). or the government, in the case of central pacific, simply made it illegal tocompete in certain markets.

This regulation was introduced to speed up the economic expansion of the US. The tendency to monopoly would have eventually occured , only more slowly.

quote:

(...) as competition between companies naturally raises the standard for workers.

Only for a relatively small number of workers. The majority in the 19th century saw their standards reduce. This would have continued had not legislation been introduced to improve the conditions of those at the bottom of the pile.

quote:

even Rockefeller, who did most of his power grabbing without government help, could not hold a monopoly. when he was brought before the courts (...)

That is because by then the tendency to monopoly had been realised and laws introduced to counteract it.

quote:

I've never understood why I should be required to pay for someone else's health care, education, or housing...or why anyone else should be required to pay for mine.

Their are collective benefits in increasing the general levels of education or standards of health. This has been recognised and in Europe especially socialistic programmes implemented resulting in all round improvement.
By and large the level of squalor present in some areas of the US is not present in Western Europe.

(in reply to variation30)

Post #: 167

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/9/2008 2:59:20 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

(...) as competition between companies naturally raises the standard for workers.

Only for a relatively small number of workers. The majority in the 19th century saw their standards reduce. This would have continued had not legislation been introduced to improve the conditions of those at the bottom of the pile.

If something doesn't fit variation's version of history, it never happened. He has been telling everyone to read von Mises but when you point out the flaws in von Mises work the current economic crisis is exposing, he doesn't accept it.

The only way to convince free marketeers that laisez faire economics is an evil and doesn't do what they claim, is to send them back to the 18th-19th centuries in a time machine for aversion therapy. Perhaps then they'll realize why we have a mixed economy and that the real debate is the balance between socialist and capitalist policies and not whether we should have one or the other.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/9/2008 3:00:22 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 168

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/9/2008 3:42:51 AM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy

Your right. We are all doomed. Better party and spend our cash while we still can.

Actually, I have NEVER said "the sky is falling" or "we are all doomed".
I have said, we are heading for a 21st century DEPRESSION.
Actually, I am feeling okay right now.
Since, I am one of the few that has seen this shit coming for over a year, I have made
MANY lifestyle changes and I have been preparing myself in all area's.
In fact, I am in the process of planning and making even more changes.

If people tell you, we are headed for serious financial trouble and our country is
in bad shape, guess what?
It helps you PREPARE and do what you need to do to survive the storm.
Cause buddy the storm is coming.
My parents were born during the depression, in fact I have been doing some geneology.
My family did OKAY during the last Depression, because they had each other and took care
of and looked out for each other.
My grandfather and his 4 brothers and sister worked together and they built homes for each
other. No outside help, other then his brothers and friends. Each one of them had a home for
their family. In fact, I am the one that keeps that house up that my granddaddy built during the
depression, and in a few months I will be living it in.
I have been working and busting my ass to keep up and restore that home for the last 4 years.
I have sacrificed a lot to keep that home UP and in my family.
I did what I needed to do, to keep that house, he died in that house, and I plan to die in
that house also.
I know he and his brothers are smiling at me, living in the house THEY built during the Depression, saying You go girl!

They grew their own food, and looked out for each other, and they all made it through the depression and kept their homes and their land.
I come from a family, that survived slavery, that built homes and survived the last Depression,
and because of my hard work, I will fucking survive the next one, much better than most.

It is the people that refuse to believe what is happening and coming our way, that will
not know what hit them.
Knowledge has always been power.
Life will continue and for many of us, we will be okay.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 10/9/2008 4:03:17 AM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to tweedydaddy)

Post #: 169

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/9/2008 5:05:27 AM

TNstepsout

Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

In case you don't know, economists disagree on a lot of things including the causes of recessions/depressions etc.

I know. and a lot of the economists are wrong. I tend to respect the ones who have always accurately predicted the causes of depressions...the Austrians.

That is a circular argument. I'm sure you are simply ignorant of this concept. Would you like some links to help explain it to you?

(in reply to variation30)

Post #: 170

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/9/2008 6:06:31 AM

seeksfemslave

Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline

quote:

meatcleaver
The only way to convince free marketeers that laissez faire economics is an evil and doesn't do what they claim, is to send them back to the 18th-19th centuries in a time machine for aversion therapy. Perhaps then they'll realize why we have a mixed economy and that the real debate is the balance between socialist and capitalist policies and not whether we should have one or the other.

If the current crisis doesn't do it then the train fare would be wasted.

(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 171

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/9/2008 9:23:41 AM

martyman

Posts: 8
Joined: 9/9/2008
Status: offline

Best bet do as we do in ireland say "dis fucking country's gone belly up" then head for the pub till recession/depression is over!!

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 172

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/10/2008 4:08:03 AM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

MzMia:

Funny you should define depression. I looked it up as well. I wanted to know the difference, and there is none. It is a time situation.
Be careful not to get yourself in debt over your head. Don't move or change jobs right now.
Keep spending to a bare minimal.
All it will take is one more major disaster such as Katrina to sink us.

Regards, MissSCD

Well most people would agree we have been in at LEAST a recession for about 1 year.
I am thinking it will take about 1-2 more years of the "recession" before most start calling
it a Depression.
Most indicators are suggesting we are still rolling downhill and we have not even come close
to the bottom yet.
This much I really believe, when the government finally tells us we are in a Depression,
we will have been in a Depression for probably at least a year.

Well almost all indicators are telling us that the "recession" is deepening.
The question will soon be, how long will the "recession" last?
As we know, the only difference between a "Recession" and a "Depression",
is the time it lasts.
How long will this one last?
We have a President that is not doing ANYTHING to change this, so we basically
have no real leadership until the end of January.
But don't feel bad, we have had no real leadership for a long time!

Poll: Almost 6 of 10 Americans see depression as likely - Oct. 6, 2008

< Message edited by MzMia -- 10/10/2008 4:09:19 AM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 173

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/10/2008 4:43:14 AM

TNstepsout

Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

As we know, the only difference between a "Recession" and a "Depression",
is the time it lasts.
How long will this one last?
We have a President that is not doing ANYTHING to change this, so we basically
have no real leadership until the end of January.
But don't feel bad, we have had no real leadership for a long time!

Poll: Almost 6 of 10 Americans see depression as likely - Oct. 6, 2008

Yeah, it's not looking good at all. I was really shocked by the stock market yesterday. I honestly thought the worst drops were over and we'd see a slow bleed for a while. Was I ever wrong. Stock markets in about 5 countries have been shut down to stop the sell off. It reminds me of the run on the banks in the 30's when banks just closed their doors. Iceland is in such bad shape that the entire country could face bankruptcy if they do not get some help for their banks. The Euro, as a currency, is in trouble if the European banks don't come together to support it, but right now they are all to busy trying to bail out their respective countries banking systems. It's just a complete meltdown of the world-wide financial system.

Interesting that we aren't hearing of bad news from those countries we seem to have a lot of disdain for and view as backward.

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 174

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/10/2008 4:53:43 AM

SilverMark

Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline

Ok...so I own a small business....the world is coming to an end...Our numbers are at best Ok....so, last week I went to Las Vegas!...spent money, gambled flew on a chopper into the Grand Canyon and forgot about it all for a few days!....should have stayed! What the hell, had nothing better to do and it felt GREAT!

(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 175

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/10/2008 5:45:53 AM

TNstepsout

Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline

Well you know the world is going to end on December 21, 2012, so you might as well enjoy yourself til then. *g*

(in reply to SilverMark)

Post #: 176

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/10/2008 6:14:55 AM

rexrgisformidoni

Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

Well you know the world is going to end on December 21, 2012, so you might as well enjoy yourself til then. *g*

I already ordered my end of the world cake.
But yeah the stock market yesterday dropping like it did scared the poop out of me.

wonder where variation is?

_____________________________

when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

Genghis Khan

(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 177

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/10/2008 2:07:08 PM

TNstepsout

Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

wonder where variation is?

Austria?

(in reply to rexrgisformidoni)

Post #: 178

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/11/2008 9:04:28 PM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

As we know, the only difference between a "Recession" and a "Depression",
is the time it lasts.
How long will this one last?
We have a President that is not doing ANYTHING to change this, so we basically
have no real leadership until the end of January.
But don't feel bad, we have had no real leadership for a long time!

Poll: Almost 6 of 10 Americans see depression as likely - Oct. 6, 2008

Yeah, it's not looking good at all. I was really shocked by the stock market yesterday. I honestly thought the worst drops were over and we'd see a slow bleed for a while. Was I ever wrong. Stock markets in about 5 countries have been shut down to stop the sell off. It reminds me of the run on the banks in the 30's when banks just closed their doors. Iceland is in such bad shape that the entire country could face bankruptcy if they do not get some help for their banks. The Euro, as a currency, is in trouble if the European banks don't come together to support it, but right now they are all to busy trying to bail out their respective countries banking systems. It's just a complete meltdown of the world-wide financial system.

Interesting that we aren't hearing of bad news from those countries we seem to have a lot of disdain for and view as backward.

Well, the world has become very interesting lately.
I was looking around for some of the latest news about
the meeting of some of the world leaders next week.
I found this article.
Bloomberg.com: Worldwide

The article states that political leaders are discussing closing the
world's financial markets while they rewrite the rules of international
finance!
Global big brother interventions?
The plot is thickening.

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 179

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going ... - 10/11/2008 9:17:43 PM

LookieNoNookie

Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline

Fortunately for me...I know everything.

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 180

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