Guns Yes or No (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Guns Yes or No


Guns are great and usefull tolls
  40% (18)
Guns are ok
  6% (3)
Guns are evil and useless
  0% (0)
Gun laws are ok as they are
  4% (2)
Gun laws need to be tougher
  18% (8)
Gun laws need to be relaxed
  15% (7)
Guns (all or only some) should be banned
  13% (6)


Total Votes : 44
(last vote on : 1/11/2006 7:57:05 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message

Wolf1020 -> Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 10:33:40 AM)

So just to stir up the debate pot, because I do just love a good debate, two questions come to mind.

First- Guns just where do you stand on them? Useful tools or useless pieces of garbage the world should be rid of? Or is it more complicated for you? You are alright with long guns (rifles and shotguns) but would like nothing more then to see handguns banned?

And second- Gun laws do they really work? Are you in favor of strict laws and licensing or are you in favor of a more lax laws making it easier for someone to legally obtain a gun? Or are you for outright bans of the public having any guns, or just certain guns if you are in favor of bans?

Now then I have allowed multiple selections on the poll so (since I don't know how to make two poll questions on the same thread if you even can) you can vote on both things. I have made questions both for the first and second questions in the post. The first three in the poll are for the first question and the last four deal with the second. Please make selection on each if you wish. And please, keep is civil and free of hysterics.



stef -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 12:48:05 PM)

Guns are tools, pure and simple.

I think it's pretty clear that the gun laws we have now don't "work," at least not for their stated purposes. The people most affected by these laws are the law abiding gun owners, not the criminals.

~stef



Wolf1020 -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 1:12:16 PM)

very well said stef

I like to wait for at least one reply before giving my opinion when I start these kinds of threads so here goes-

Gun laws plain and simple don't work they enable criminals and effect only law abiding citizens by disarming them. And not simply in the sense of the criminal being more likely to have a gun but in the sense of a victim being unable to defend themselves. When handguns are banned you end up with rises in crime because it emboldens criminals by making their job easier. Chicago and Washington D.C. are two prime examples of overzealous gun control and what happens. Give San Francisco a few years if the ban stands and see what happens, if it stays odds are that crime is going to skyrocket. As to guns being dangerous they are a tool. Guns aren't dangerous some people are. A gun isn't going to kill a person any more then a hammer is unless you pick the hammer up and bash someone upside the head. And in areas where they haven't been able to get outright bans (like NYC) waiting periods and hoops put what are effectively bans by making it next to impossible for someone to get a gun.

Just what laws do I think there should be? None really for law abiding citizens. You should have to pass a background check that I agree with. Right now when you purchase a gun you need to pass a background check through a national system. People should be able to call that themselves, have a background check done, and if passed be mailed an ID card. What if they commit a crime? They surrender the card. The more casual gun owner who doesn't buy many guns can opt for the current system of having the check done at time of purchase. People who would be denied are violent offenders, not a broad spectrum of "felon". I don't see the need to have bans on certain weapons. Some states like California have strict limits on what they deem "assault weapons" I see no need for this. If someone is going to kill someone they can do so just as easily with one bullet as they can with an M-16 or AK-47. And banning them like all guns does nothing but keep them out of the hands of law abiding citizens and does squat to keep them out of the hands of criminals. As to need? The average person doesn't need a fully automatic weapon or one that some politician deems an "assault weapon" I don't deny that. But then the average person doesn't need a car capable of doing a 160 mph, 0-60 in 4 seconds, more then one car, etc. that is all perfectly legal owning as many guns or any type of gun you want should be perfectly legal as well.

So in short- Guns are tools they don't kill people, people do. Strict gun laws simply do not work they weaken citizens and empower criminals. Only violent felons should be denied the right to keep and bare arms, all others should have access to a quick purchase of a gun through their choice of ID card saying they have passed their background check or standard in store check. And all bans on certain types of weapons practical to own and use or not should be lifted.



sub4hire -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 1:21:04 PM)

I own a small arsenal all inherited. I am a member of the NRA.
Gun laws do not work for the reasons already stated. Although the US is much more lenient on our laws than other countries.




MadameDahlia -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 1:26:11 PM)

I've got two beautifully refinished antique bolt action rifles - one from my great grandfather and the other purchased at a gun show. I'm interested in picking up an M1 Carbine with a scope and a bipod.

I'd also like to experiment more with handguns (which I'll be able to own by January!) in order to find one I like handling - less kick, etc. I'd really, really like a permit to carry - but in California that seems fairly difficult to do.

I'm not terribly keen on shotguns but that's only because I was handed one of the biggest monsters out there and told to give it a go. I half expected to be knocked on my arse... but instead I only managed to bruise that little pocket beneath the shoulder. It was fun at any rate.



Wolf1020 -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 1:34:46 PM)

handguns are great but cali is a pain with the laws, anything that holdsm roe then ten rounds is out.

Do you prefer revolvers or autos? For autos the Springfield XD is a nice gun at a decent price (under five hundred) and comes in three good calibers and comes in a three four or five inch barrel modle so it fits a decent range of needs. Simple and easy to maintain as well. Taurus makes good handguns as well that are a bit more affordable. Though like you say in cali geting a permit to carry is next to impossible unless you are a private security agent or a cop/retired cop. For not to much kick go with a 9mm. If god forbid you actually need to shoot someone to defend yourself it is a big/powerful enough caliber but soft enough on the recoil to be easy to shoot reguarly. And 9mm with a good self defense round will more then do the job agianst your average underprivliged youth. Can send me a message if you want to talk on it further this isnt really the place to go on with the conversation lol.



MadameDahlia -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 1:44:31 PM)

-laughs- I'd enjoy going into more details about this. To be quite honest I don't feel that I know enough about handguns to make an informed decision about purchasing one. I was thinking about asking two of my gun loving friends about going to the range to try out several of them... see how they feel... stuff like that.

And while it's hard to get a permit for a handgun it's legal to have a stun gun- and I believe I heard something about legalizing tasers, which also currently require permits.

--- For those who don't know a stun gun requires that you be within striking distance of the attacker. A taser is the device where electricity seems to leap forward toward the attacker (effective 15-20ft range).



ragdoll -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 1:56:44 PM)

In my "ideal" world... guns are completely unnecessay .. i mean.. in my "ideal" world no country has a military at all (so no guns for military -or- civilians).. and in my ideal world we solve all our differences without any violence.

:)

of course... my ideal world doesn't exist... and probably never will.
That said, i still voted for: Guns (all or only some) should be banned



DesertRat -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 1:58:01 PM)

Americans do seem to be gun-crazy. That said, I don't think changing the laws would help. There is just something about us...we simply love blowing each other away. Maybe it will prove to be a natural selection thing. I wish I could move to a place where the people are more balanced, but I can't.

I hear people around here saying they need their guns to protect them from "the government". Yeah, right. If and when it gets to that point, it will already be too late to do anything. Not to mention the fact that the government has tanks, planes and helicopters. It all seems pretty silly to me. As for protecting the home and family? I trust the cops more than my "law-abiding" fellow citizens. I know guns are fun. I'm a very good shot. I know how to use them and maintain them, but I don't see gun ownership as a holy sacred right. It's a good issue to use when politicians want to push buttons, though.

"My cold dead fingers"....right....I wish...

Bob



Wolf1020 -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 2:00:06 PM)

that is the best way. Also you can go to a range which rents guns, if you are over 21 you can look at some guns handle some in the store and then take a few of them onto the range that fit your hand well, of course the friends would be cheaper and you can at least get a good idea of what to look for.

As for stun guns they are largly ineffective and I would trust my life with a gun a lot more then I would a stun gun. All in all tasers do do the same thing but offer higher voltages then most stun guns. Also all in all you want to keep ground between you and an attacker, stun guns require you to be up close.



sub4hire -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 4:02:33 PM)

quote:

I'd also like to experiment more with handguns (which I'll be able to own by January!) in order to find one I like handling - less kick, etc. I'd really, really like a permit to carry - but in California that seems fairly difficult to do.


As far as handguns I'm old fashioned I recommend a 32 or a 38 to carry concealed. For me it was quite easy to get my concealed weapons permit. All you have to do is carry money. For work of course. Since I train a lot of higher ups in management, well I do have to make a bank run now and then with 20-30 grand in my hand.
A friend gave me a 7mm Remington Magnum Rifle a few year's back. I love that gun. My favorite though is a 30-06 from WW1 I possess.

I'm with you, I'm not much into shotguns. Just too messy.



Wolf1020 -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 4:41:09 PM)

quote:

There is just something about us...we simply love blowing each other away.

Criminals blow each other away, not law abiding citizens. And criminals will always have guns no matter what restrictive laws get passed. Law abiding citizens that carry and own for protection are among the groups with the lowest crime rates. And states with concealed carry have much less crime, if you compare crime rates in FL before and after they got legalized concealed carry crime rates went way down. I know a lot of people who carry for protection, I know even more who jsut keep a gun near the be at night, only one has ever shot someone and that was a guy about to stab his wife.

quote:

I hear people around here saying they need their guns to protect them from "the government". Yeah, right. If and when it gets to that point, it will already be too late to do anything. Not to mention the fact that the government has tanks, planes and helicopters. It all seems pretty silly to me.

And that is because??? To be perfectly honest I support legalizing them too lol. And I find it odd that the army with all of its techknowlagy makes it immune from guys with virtualy nothing. Don't get me wrong I support our troops and the war, but jsut because they have planes doesn't mean you can't do anything. Who makes all that equipment spare parts and their ammo agian though? [:D] And if you honestly think the goverment is there to protect your rights and not rule you that was once the case, but that erodes away every day with the two major parties of our goverment.

quote:

As for protecting the home and family? I trust the cops more than my "law-abiding" fellow citizens.

Sorry, cops rarly are able to protect you. They are good for catching the guy that stabs you, not keeping you from getting stabbed. Someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night depending on where you are you are on your own for likly at least ten minutes. It takes a lot less then that to find you on the phone with 911, stab you, and make your escape. Even less if you can't get to the phone in the first place, somewhere say like a dark street. Police can do squat to protect you, they can find the criminal after the fact, they can sometimes keep a crime from happening and act as a bit of a deturent. But make no mistake about it when you find yourself face t oface with a criminal you 99% of the time are on your own and police will not be there to help in time from you being hurt or killed. And then you have situation where you are simply screwed because there are NO police to help you. New Oreleans is a prime example of why you can not and should not expect the goverment to always help you in danger. I have read accounts of many people who if they hadn't had a firearm would have been beaten, rapped, robbed, or worse. Talked to a few of them too. It is exactly situations like that we have the the seccond ammendment not giving us a right, but protecting it.

quote:

For me it was quite easy to get my concealed weapons permit. All you have to do is carry money. For work of course. Since I train a lot of higher ups in management, well I do have to make a bank run now and then with 20-30 grand in my hand.

If that is the only reason they gave it to you I would be really careful carrying at any other time. Sometimes those permits are only good while on the clock or preforming that duty. If it is eight oclock at night outside the movie theater and some armed guy comes at you in the parking lot and you shot him odds are you are screwed.

quote:

As far as handguns I'm old fashioned I recommend a 32 or a 38 to carry concealed.

.38 is a good round provided it is .38 special, .357 magnum is better though. And the nice thing about a .357 magnum is you can use the .38 special for practice, it has softer recoil and is cheaper, and can carry the .357 magnums for self defense. Just have to be careful if you do that a lot though to clean out the chambers in your revolver so you don't get carbon rings which can jam a case in there making you screwed if you need mroe then however many shots it holds. I reccomend those for revolvers. For an auto loader though my personal favorite is .40S&W. It isn't over powered but is more powerfull then a 9mm, is reasonably priced, not horrible recoil, and unlike a .45 still offers good magazine capacity. With a .40S&W you can hold over ten rounds depending on the gun (and local laws, anything more in cali is illegal), but a .45 most only hold six or seven rounds. A better caliber but a .40 is plenty big enough to do the job and I'll take more rounds over a power increase that doesn't really matter much. Though 9mm is plenty to do the job as well and is one of the most avalible and inexpensive rounds there is for an autoloader.
As for .32 they are a fun round to shoot and ok for a back up. But I don't trust it as a primary, to weak a round IMO. Plus the ammo is generaly expensive. With a good self defense round like hydrashocks or golden sabers it is better then nothing and will take care of plenty, but I'd much rather have a 9mm or .40S&W



stef -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 5:54:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

As for protecting the home and family? I trust the cops more than my "law-abiding" fellow citizens.

I hope you're never in the position where you have to depend upon the police to protect your home or family. You might not be pleased the outcome. Do you know what the average response time in your area is for a 911 call? Do you think that police even have an obligation to respond?

The Supreme Court of the United States doesn't think so. In Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981), they state that it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." There are several other cases just like this where states and muncipalities have come to the same conclusion.

Still want to rely on the fine folk in law enforcement to protect you and yours? There's a book called 'Dial 911 and Die' that deals with this subject and the misconceptions concerning our 911 system. Apart from the sensationalistic title, it's an interesting book.

~stef



DesertRat -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 8:38:20 PM)

I'm not a great lover of cops, but I'd much rather have them show up at my house with guns than you...or my neighbor...or Charlton Heston...or...LOL...Ted Nugent.

Bob



Wolf1020 -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 9:29:20 PM)

you might want to rethink that, most private gun owners are better shots then most cops lol

but all the more reason to be prepared to defend yourself and not expect others too.



DesertRat -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 10:09:25 PM)

How many times have you defended yourself with your gun? Lots? If so, I'd suggest you might want to make some basic changes in how you're living. I've lived and worked in some really scary places and never been in a situation where I needed a gun. I've made it through 54 years so far, and expect to muddle through a few more decades. Somehow, I manage to go through life unafraid, even though I am gunless. Can you imagine that?

Also, how do you know most private gun owners are better shots? Not that it matters.

Bob



veronicaofML -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 10:15:31 PM)

First- Guns just where do you stand on them?
usually on the handle stock if i can. sometimes on the barrel if i wanna i plug it up real good.
no, seriously, guns are only as good as the person holding it.





And second- Gun laws do they really work?

no more or less than the don't drive while you're drunk law........

people are people. there are idiots everywhere



FangsNfeet -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 10:49:12 PM)

GUNS ARE GREAT!!!

It's ashame that we have to many irresponsible people carrying them. Even if gun control became a perfect system, it only means that crimes involving knives and base ball bats would go up. Crimes and murders can't be solved by taking guns away. If I wanted to kill someone, I don't need a gun to do it. The Trench Coat Mofia didn't need guns to ruin everyones day. Pipe bombs, daggars, bow/arrows, stunners, smoke bombs, and such would have gotten the job done with just about the same results.

As for kids and accidental shootings, why is it on the news "Gun kills kid" when it should really say "Irresponsible adults allowed a kid to be irresponsible with a gun that ended in the childs death"

If people really think that GUNS kill people, then let's remind them that Cars, airplanes, boats, knives, base balls, bats, lakes, swimming pools, bridges, electrical equipment, buildings, and etc etc etc... also kill people and should be band by everybody.

Why dose everything end up having to be banned just because we have a few bad apples in the barrel?



stef -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 10:52:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

I'm not a great lover of cops, but I'd much rather have them show up at my house with guns than you...or my neighbor...or Charlton Heston...or...LOL...Ted Nugent.

I don't recall offering to show up at your house, so you'll get that wish. Talk about missing the point... [sm=rolleyes.gif]

quote:

How many times have you defended yourself with your gun? Lots? If so, I'd suggest you might want to make some basic changes in how you're living. I've lived and worked in some really scary places and never been in a situation where I needed a gun.

You've been lucky, and I hope that keeps working for you. Not everyone chooses to go through life relying solely on luck.

quote:

I've made it through 54 years so far, and expect to muddle through a few more decades. Somehow, I manage to go through life unafraid, even though I am gunless. Can you imagine that?

It's got nothing to do with being afraid, Bob. Were you ever a boy scout? Even if you weren't, do you remember their motto?

quote:

Also, how do you know most private gun owners are better shots? Not that it matters.

I doubt that they are, but it wouldn't take much practice or training for them to become so. I used to shoot at a range where San Francisco police officers and the San Mateo County sheriff's department went to brush up before shooting their quals. I'm suprised that so many of them actually pass. They don't receive nearly as much training/practice as they should, unless they pay for it out of pocket and most of them don't. They only do what they need to do in order to pass quals then don't shoot again until the next test approaches.

That's *exactly* who I want coming to my aid, if they ever do.

~stef



michaelMI -> RE: Guns Yes or No (12/6/2005 10:58:42 PM)

i think the world would be a safer place if they replaced all firearms with dildos. (did someone once say, "Make Love, Not War"?)[:D]



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